TLS isnt really in continuity with X2

[Angamb]

In terms of movie style, in the beggining of X3 I already was feeling that wasn't the same as X2, the first shots of the Jean flashback, with the car, the light of that scene.... and besides, here in Spain, the Rogue voice wasn't like the X2 one, at least for me it wasn't.

 

[Theweepeople]

Funny how you are so obsessed with what happened to Cerebro; when you could also ask "Where was Toad and Sabretooth in X2?" They could easily have survived their attacks in X1 (they are powerful mutants you know - otherwise why else would Magneto recruit them?) yet no one nitpicks about this little continuity error. People just shrug it off. Why can't they do that for X3?

This above quote is the perfect example of why I don't debate people in these threads anymore. I already addressed these issues months. I'm not going to waste my time answering the questions over and over again if people are incapable of remembering my answers. I could start copying and pasting my answers but, I doubt that would change anything.

Well, my views on these:

1. In X2, we had just Jean. In X3, we had to contend with Jean and Phoenix. From the subbasement scene between Logan and Jean, I was under the impression that we were seeing Phoenix - a completely different character. As Xavier says, a being of desire. This isn't the same, timid, faithful Jean Grey we've seen before. This is something else. Therefore, different motives. Not too hard to grasp.

2. How did you get the impression that the X-Men were fairly new in X1? I thought quite the opposite. Actually, when Scott disapproves of Logan joining their team, for me it establishes that Scott knows he's the man in charge - which implies they've been through this before. He doesn't want Logan to upset routine.

3. Fair enough - in X3, Logan did heal faster. But maybe the Phoenix wasn't concentrating too much - as others have said, maybe she was taunting him? She knew she could destroy him in an instant - for such a beastly being, I would guess she likes to see as much pain and suffering as she can. To satisfy herself, she would have to make Logan work harder, and therefore to stay alive he would have to push himself to the max.

4. I would never classify Bobby and Pyro as friends - in X2, we could see they each had different views. (Food courtroom scene; Bobby - "I think you're the only one having a good time."; Under the Institute attack; Pyro - "He can handle himself, let's go!" X-Jet scene; Pyro - "You always do what you're told?") They obviously aren't the best of friends - and therefore it can be safe to say that there is already conflict between them. This divide is only strengthened when Bobby realises Pyro has betrayed them, gone back on everything the Institute stands for. Why would Bobby have time for someone like that?

5. You've skipped an entire film here. X2 is the gap between them - to link the two. Storm goes from, as you say "shy follower" - to empowered X-Men (in X2, taking charge of the jet, rescuing the kids and Xavier) - to the newly-found leader in X3. This change in roles - it's forced upon her. Xavier gone, Scott gone, Jean- who else is going to take charge? Storm, in my eyes, is the only one certified; she's been here the longest. And she knows it too. What's wrong with that?

6. I wouldn't say pigheaded; sure Xavier comes across as darker, but his pupil just killed another of his! What do you expect? Throughout X1 and X2, we see Jean is a "favourite" of his; he goes to the Senate with her, when Magneto comes to the train station, it is Jean and Xavier who go - and at the end of X2, Xavier talks fondly of Jean, more so than he has of any other. In X3, this is continued. Jean holds a special place in his heart - and now she's come back as something completely different! No longer the Jean he knows and loves so much. Of course, his motives will be different; his actions possibly questionable, but if you think about it, it's understandable.

See above response.

 

[TKing]

This above quote is the perfect example of why I don't debate people in these threads anymore. I already addressed these issues months. I'm not going to waste my time answering the questions over and over again if people are incapable of remembering my answers. I could start copying and pasting my answers but, I doubt that would change anything.

Unlike others, it isn't my life's intention to convince people that X3 was a good movie, and I don't expect the other side to either. On the rare occasion that I do look through these sorts of threads, if someone blatantly has a problem with X3 that could just as easily be blamed upon X1 or X2, I reply.

I don't look back through pages and pages to see what one poster said... weeks ago, and I wouldn't expect any other poster to do the same for me. But this thread isn't specifically for the 'haters' or 'lovers'. Merely to debate the films; and if you, or any other 'hater', refuse to listen to what I have to say, or accept that there are just as big continuity errors in the previous films as X3, then I think it's fair if I, or other 'lovers', shouldn't have to listen to whatever you might say.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Unlike others, it isn't my life's intention to convince people that X3 was a good movie, and I don't expect the other side to either. On the rare occasion that I do look through these sorts of threads, if someone blatantly has a problem with X3 that could just as easily be blamed upon X1 or X2, I reply.

I don't look back through pages and pages to see what one poster said... weeks ago, and I wouldn't expect any other poster to do the same for me. But this thread isn't specifically for the 'haters' or 'lovers'. Merely to debate the films; and if you, or any other 'hater', refuse to listen to what I have to say, or accept that there are just as big continuity errors in the previous films as X3, then I think it's fair if I, or other 'lovers', shouldn't have to listen to whatever you might say.

Bravo!

thewheepeople likes to play the martyr role whenever anyone disagrees with him, and always, ALWAYS, resorts to the "I covered this already" response, as though HE is the only one with truth behind his words.

But whenever I, or another X3 lover, cover something, it's never good enough for him, he never accepts it, and he continues to find more reasons to prove that he's right, and everyone else is wrong.

And people wonder why I get bitter with him.

But bravo to you TKing. You speak the truth.

 

[Theweepeople]

Unlike others, it isn't my life's intention to convince people that X3 was a good movie, and I don't expect the other side to either. On the rare occasion that I do look through these sorts of threads, if someone blatantly has a problem with X3 that could just as easily be blamed upon X1 or X2, I reply.

I don't look back through pages and pages to see what one poster said... weeks ago, and I wouldn't expect any other poster to do the same for me. But this thread isn't specifically for the 'haters' or 'lovers'. Merely to debate the films; and if you, or any other 'hater', refuse to listen to what I have to say, or accept that there are just as big continuity errors in the previous films as X3, then I think it's fair if I, or other 'lovers', shouldn't have to listen to whatever you might say.

No offense. I have no problem with people who like this film expressing their viewpoints in these threads even if I don't agree with them. I also, have no problem if you completely ignore my posts. I got tired of having debates a few months ago because nothing was resolved by them. That's why 90% of the conversations I've had since February are with people who hate the film.

 

[gambitfire]

Well, my views on these:

1. In X2, we had just Jean. In X3, we had to contend with Jean and Phoenix. From the subbasement scene between Logan and Jean, I was under the impression that we were seeing Phoenix - a completely different character. As Xavier says, a being of desire. This isn't the same, timid, faithful Jean Grey we've seen before. This is something else. Therefore, different motives. Not too hard to grasp.

Understandable but i still don't see why she would choose Logan over Scott. there is no reason, especially since the actual character would never do so.

2. How did you get the impression that the X-Men were fairly new in X1? I thought quite the opposite. Actually, when Scott disapproves of Logan joining their team, for me it establishes that Scott knows he's the man in charge - which implies they've been through this before. He doesn't want Logan to upset routine.

I totally agree.

3. Fair enough - in X3, Logan did heal faster. But maybe the Phoenix wasn't concentrating too much - as others have said, maybe she was taunting him? She knew she could destroy him in an instant - for such a beastly being, I would guess she likes to see as much pain and suffering as she can. To satisfy herself, she would have to make Logan work harder, and therefore to stay alive he would have to push himself to the max.

Even if she played around with him she is still a psychic could she not have read his true intention and the mind works faster than his actions so she could of stopped him, i don't buy that and find it too convenient that this is the moment Jean returns.

She simply didn't care for him enough or even knew him long enough to gain control for him.

4. I would never classify Bobby and Pyro as friends - in X2, we could see they each had different views. (Food courtroom scene; Bobby - "I think you're the only one having a good time."; Under the Institute attack; Pyro - "He can handle himself, let's go!" X-Jet scene; Pyro - "You always do what you're told?") They obviously aren't the best of friends - and therefore it can be safe to say that there is already conflict between them. This divide is only strengthened when Bobby realises Pyro has betrayed them, gone back on everything the Institute stands for. Why would Bobby have time for someone like that?

even so the switch was a rather quickly. If it where not for Pyro's attitude and personality i would have not bought this switch.

5. You've skipped an entire film here. X2 is the gap between them - to link the two. Storm goes from, as you say "shy follower" - to empowered X-Men (in X2, taking charge of the jet, rescuing the kids and Xavier) - to the newly-found leader in X3. This change in roles - it's forced upon her. Xavier gone, Scott gone, Jean- who else is going to take charge? Storm, in my eyes, is the only one certified; she's been here the longest. And she knows it too. What's wrong with that?

Well beside the fact that it's way too plot convenient, I would't even agree with the_scream as far as barking orders goes. To me she just whinned all the way through.

She didn't do much in the previous films but even so she was out of character.

6. I wouldn't say pigheaded; sure Xavier comes across as darker, but his pupil just killed another of his! What do you expect? Throughout X1 and X2, we see Jean is a "favourite" of his; he goes to the Senate with her, when Magneto comes to the train station, it is Jean and Xavier who go - and at the end of X2, Xavier talks fondly of Jean, more so than he has of any other. In X3, this is continued. Jean holds a special place in his heart - and now she's come back as something completely different! No longer the Jean he knows and loves so much. Of course, his motives will be different; his actions possibly questionable, but if you think about it, it's understandable.

I think the_scream is referring to the fact that he messed with her head as a child. So this was before she killed Scott, they where past actions.

 

[Obsidian]

6. I wouldn't say pigheaded; sure Xavier comes across as darker, but his pupil just killed another of his! What do you expect? Throughout X1 and X2, we see Jean is a "favourite" of his; he goes to the Senate with her, when Magneto comes to the train station, it is Jean and Xavier who go - and at the end of X2, Xavier talks fondly of Jean, more so than he has of any other. In X3, this is continued. Jean holds a special place in his heart - and now she's come back as something completely different! No longer the Jean he knows and loves so much. Of course, his motives will be different; his actions possibly questionable, but if you think about it, it's understandable.

I would say that Xavier is much more manipulative and less of a father figure in "X3" compared to the previous films. One could say the complete turn of events involving Phoenix was/wasn't felt by the Professor Xavier at the end of X2, but that's debatable. It does appear that in X3, Xavier has no problem manipulating his pupils, while at the same time shunning them (like he did with Scott). I'm wondering if Xavier did anything at all to help Scott deal with his grief after Jean's death. You'd think a mentor would be good at that. What surprises me even more is that Xavier's lost faith in Scott to perform him duties. This does sound like more "Cyclops-mistreatment" ranting, but it is relevant. I'm wondering if X3's Xavier has heard of the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

 

[Theweepeople]

I would say that Xavier is much more manipulative and less of a father figure in "X3" compared to the previous films. One could say the complete turn of events involving Phoenix was/wasn't felt by the Professor Xavier at the end of X2, but that's debatable. It does appear that in X3, Xavier has no problem manipulating his pupils, while at the same time shunning them (like he did with Scott). I'm wondering if Xavier did anything at all to help Scott deal with his grief after Jean's death. You'd think a mentor would be good at that. What surprises me even more is that Xavier's lost faith in Scott to perform him duties. This does sound like more "Cyclops-mistreatment" ranting, but it is relevant. I'm wondering if X3's Xavier has heard of the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Don't forget that Xavier also scolded Wolverine after his methods were questioned. The same methods that resulted in Jean losing control of her powers and the death of Scott. I wondered what happened to the Xavier that was humble and wise.

I also wondered why is the use of Xavier's powers so inconsistent. In X3 Charles couldn't determine whether Jean killed Scott after trying to read her mind yet he has the ability to track her without cerebro?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Unlike others, it isn't my life's intention to convince people that X3 was a good movie, and I don't expect the other side to either. On the rare occasion that I do look through these sorts of threads, if someone blatantly has a problem with X3 that could just as easily be blamed upon X1 or X2, I reply.
I don't look back through pages and pages to see what one poster said... weeks ago, and I wouldn't expect any other poster to do the same for me. But this thread isn't specifically for the 'haters' or 'lovers'. Merely to debate the films; and if you, or any other 'hater', refuse to listen to what I have to say, or accept that there are just as big continuity errors in the previous films as X3, then I think it's fair if I, or other 'lovers', shouldn't have to listen to whatever you might say.

Sorry, bu i dont see how 99% of the problems with X3 can be blamed on the first two movies. The ONLY one IMO that can be blamed on the first two mvoies is the characterisation of Storm. ALL others can be laid at Ratner's, Kinberg's, Penn's, and especially Fox's feet.

I would say that Xavier is much more manipulative and less of a father figure in "X3" compared to the previous films. One could say the complete turn of events involving Phoenix was/wasn't felt by the Professor Xavier at the end of X2, but that's debatable. It does appear that in X3, Xavier has no problem manipulating his pupils, while at the same time shunning them (like he did with Scott). I'm wondering if Xavier did anything at all to help Scott deal with his grief after Jean's death. You'd think a mentor would be good at that. What surprises me even more is that Xavier's lost faith in Scott to perform him duties. This does sound like more "Cyclops-mistreatment" ranting, but it is relevant. I'm wondering if X3's Xavier has heard of the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Exactly, i find it astonishing that Xavier didnt speak to Scott ONCE in the movie, or even mourn over his death, sorry, but thats not the Xavier from the first 2 movies or the comics. And why didnt he hear Jean's psychic message's to Scott either?

 

[Fried Gold]

 

[Child-of-Light]

you know i didnt think the movie was that connected either take the phoenix THAT was not connect and the funny part was that brett said how much he tried to connect them.

 

[Child-of-Light]

Unlike others, it isn't my life's intention to convince people that X3 was a good movie, and I don't expect the other side to either. On the rare occasion that I do look through these sorts of threads, if someone blatantly has a problem with X3 that could just as easily be blamed upon X1 or X2, I reply.

I don't look back through pages and pages to see what one poster said... weeks ago, and I wouldn't expect any other poster to do the same for me. But this thread isn't specifically for the 'haters' or 'lovers'. Merely to debate the films; and if you, or any other 'hater', refuse to listen to what I have to say, or accept that there are just as big continuity errors in the previous films as X3, then I think it's fair if I, or other 'lovers', shouldn't have to listen to whatever you might say.

x1 and 2 had their mistakes but x3 didnt have any character development like the first to and the drama and emotion it put on you x3 didnt keep that flow and totally recked the phoenix...i mean not even a phoenix who said i am pheonix....it was a fireless phoenix who just stood for half the movie while the cure was over shadowing her.

 

[Child-of-Light]

lolt:

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

x1 and 2 had their mistakes but x3 didnt have any character development like the first to and the drama and emotion it put on you x3 didnt keep that flow and totally recked the phoenix...i mean not even a phoenix who said i am pheonix....it was a fireless phoenix who just stood for half the movie while the cure was over shadowing her.

EXACTLY!

 

[Hugh'sMrs]

If they wanted to show Storm as a strong leader, then they shouldn't have let her lose control of the situation in the danger room scene. Infact Logan pretty much disregards her as the team leader throughout the film (in the danger room, at Jean's house and at Alcatraz) Whenever he's around she loses control of HER team. Consider me unimpressed. She was more impressive in X2. Halle complained endlessly about Singer but he actually did a better job with Storm in X2 unless anyone thinks that making her a whiny, unsympathetic b-itch is character growth.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

If they wanted to show Storm as a strong leader, then they shouldn't have let her lose control of the situation in the danger room scene. Infact Logan pretty much disregards her as the team leader throughout the film (in the danger room, at Jean's house and at Alcatraz) Whenever he's around she loses control of HER team. Consider me unimpressed. She was more impressive in X2. Halle complained endlessly about Singer but he actually did a better job with Storm in X2 unless anyone thinks that making her a whiny, unsympathetic b-itch is character growth.

What I found most impressive was Halle saying Storm didn't really showcase her power until X3. Her best power displays are in X1 and X2. And her best display in X3 was cut. Does she think Storm's only power is to spin? Her feud with Singer must have blinded her.

I wonder if Singer came back...(impossible, I know). Would she just walk away after public saying she would come back and actually asking for X4? I don't know if she would walk away or Singer would dismiss her...In any case, it's pity...all because of a black ass line.

 

[gambitfire]

If they wanted to show Storm as a strong leader, then they shouldn't have let her lose control of the situation in the danger room scene. Infact Logan pretty much disregards her as the team leader throughout the film (in the danger room, at Jean's house and at Alcatraz) Whenever he's around she loses control of HER team. Consider me unimpressed. She was more impressive in X2. Halle complained endlessly about Singer but he actually did a better job with Storm in X2 unless anyone thinks that making her a whiny, unsympathetic b-itch is character growth.

Are you inside my MIND!?!?!?! t:

Couldn't agree more.

 

[X-Maniac]

If they wanted to show Storm as a strong leader, then they shouldn't have let her lose control of the situation in the danger room scene. Infact Logan pretty much disregards her as the team leader throughout the film (in the danger room, at Jean's house and at Alcatraz) Whenever he's around she loses control of HER team. Consider me unimpressed. She was more impressive in X2. Halle complained endlessly about Singer but he actually did a better job with Storm in X2 unless anyone thinks that making her a whiny, unsympathetic b-itch is character growth.

In fairness, Logan's always been shown as a stubborn, disobedient maverick. That's who he is.

 

[X-Maniac]

What I found most impressive was Halle saying Storm didn't really showcase her power until X3. Her best power displays are in X1 and X2. And her best display in X3 was cut. Does she think Storm's only power is to spin? Her feud with Singer must have blinded her.

I wonder if Singer came back...(impossible, I know). Would she just walk away after public saying she would come back and actually asking for X4? I don't know if she would walk away or Singer would dismiss her...In any case, it's pity...all because of a black ass line.

Storm's power displays in X1 and X2 stand out because they were solo displays that focused only on her and her power and they weren't part of a kinetic action sequence with other characters. Much like Magneto's prison escape. Singer's style is to give character moments (and not very many of them). But everyone complained that there wasn't enough teamwork or action in Singer's movies, so X3 tried to address that complaint and it had a different creative team. So the result is very different to Singer's work because - guess what -it wasn't Singer directing it. Singer's style is slower, more purposeful, perhaps more focused, but at times lacking urgency.

I agree that cutting out that flash-flood sequence with Storm at Alcatraz was a very bad move.

 

[BMM]

Storm's power displays in X1 and X2 stand out because they were solo displays that focused only on her and her power and they weren't part of a kinetic action sequence with other characters. Much like Magneto's prison escape. Singer's style is to give character moments (and not very many of them). But everyone complained that there wasn't enough teamwork or action in Singer's movies, so X3 tried to address that complaint and it had a different creative team. So the result is very different to Singer's work because - guess what -it wasn't Singer directing it. Singer's style is slower, more purposeful, perhaps more focused, but at times lacking urgency.

I agree that cutting out that flash-flood sequence with Storm at Alcatraz was a very bad move.

Storm's power display in the final battle is pretty much a cut-and-paste lesser version of her power display in X-Men 6 years ago.

Toad beats up Storm (cut away to other characters)
Storm defeats Toad

Calliso beats up Storm (cut away to other characters)
Storm defeats Callisto

In my opinion, Storm's power display in X-Men is just more memorable.

 

[X-Maniac]

Storm's power display in the final battle is pretty much a cut-and-paste lesser version of her power display in X-Men 6 years ago.

Toad beats up Storm (cut away to other characters)
Storm defeats Toad

Calliso beats up Storm (cut away to other characters)
Storm defeats Callisto

In my opinion, Storm's power display in X-Men is just more memorable.

There was a much longer gap between the Callisto fights than between the Toad fights but I sort of see what you are saying. Showing a hero character badly defeated and then coming back and annihilating the villain is a dramatic device that is fairly common. It's meant to make the eventual victory seem even more necessary and to give motivation for taking severe action (electrocution, in both cases!), so the audience feels/shares the drama of the hero rising back to victory.

I agree the Storm power display in X1 stood out more. That's for several reasons. Firstly, it was presented in isolation - just Storm, none of the other X-Men or other Brotherhood members besides Toad, it was a focused moment in the urgency of the X-Men's task with no other distractions. This is obviously Singer's style. Secondly, it was Storm's main power display in the entire film, so it was about time we saw something (I remember thinking 'thank God' in the cinema when i first saw it, I'd been waiting long enough for Storm to work up some energy). Thirdly, it was paced and edited in a much slower fashion, making it seem cool and serene and focused. Sadly the editing of the Alcatraz battle to remove Storm's flash-flood made the Callisto battle (and Storm's Alcatraz presence) seem short and a bit of a let-down.

There's obviously a lesson in all that about pacing/editing/camerawork to create scenes with lasting impact through patience, focus and breathing space. The theatrical cut of X3 does feel like the abridged version, the 'cliff notes' cut, in places. Bring on an Extended Edition!

 

[RogueCrawler]

Many of these continutity errors can easily be explained:

The Firebird was explained to be a coccoon of telekinetic energy created by Jean.

Rogue's attitude changed because she didn't want to lose Bobby and when the cure came out she really wanted it.

Beast going no-furry to furry was caused by Cerebro even said on the X2 commentary.

Jean being hessitant of her powers and then being this storng mutant girl in the flashback was most likely something only Professor X would say because he put the metal blocks in her head to prevent Phoenix/ Dark Phoenix for taking over, so it made her weaker and more hesistant of her powers.

Phoenix/ Dark Phoenix - When Jean was a child she had abilities beyond her control so Professor X placed mental blocks in her head. In doing this Jean developed a dual personality herself, and the Phoenix. Professor Xavier's blocks kept the Phoenix seperate from Jean until Magneto's radiation machine destroyed the mental blocks in her head allowing the Phoenix to be free. During the second film Jean's powers start to expand so she is hearing random people's thoughts and has stronger telekinetic powers due to the Phoenix. When Jean sacrificed herself she became Phoenix. Phoenix wrapped Jean's body in a cocoon of telekinetic energy which was the bird at the end of the second movie. In the third movie Jean's powers have evolved so much that she can contact Cyclops from underneath Alkali Lake and having the power to atomize things with her telekinetic powers. While she was under water Phoenix became Dark Phoenix which is why her eyes went from fire to pitch black with in the two films. Cyclops blasts destoyed the cocoon and Jean rose from the water in golwing light which was all of the fire energy from the second movie wearing off. Then the rest is pretty much self explanitory.

 

[Storm22]

What I found most impressive was Halle saying Storm didn't really showcase her power until X3. Her best power displays are in X1 and X2. And her best display in X3 was cut. Does she think Storm's only power is to spin? Her feud with Singer must have blinded her.

I actually agree with this. Aside from flying more, Storm's only big power display in X3 was in Jean's neighbourhood and as cool as that was I still prefer her tornado gauntlet in X2.

 

[Victarion]

as far as Jean being good / bad
Famke Janssen is responsible for that
the writers wanted to make Jean go from Jean to Phoenix to Dark Phoenix
but she told them thats not the way she understood the character i'll try to find what she said exactly it was in an interview
EDIT in UGO: how much input did you have in Jean's direction?

FAMKE: A lot. Initially when I read the script, I wasn't 100% sure where they were trying to go with her, and then the writers and I got together and we fleshed her out more. I think everybody had this understanding of Jean Grey, then her turning into Phoenix, then into Dark Phoenix as if it were some kind of natural progression, and that's not the way I thought. I always wanted to make sure you weren't quite sure which one was going to be in the room with you, and that's sort of how we worked on it.
http://xmen.ugo.com/features/famke_janssen/default.asp

I believe that paraphrased, this would say: "Its too hard, there's too many lines!"

 

[Mr. Socko]

None of this would have happened had Singer just done X3!!!