Homecoming Vulture vs Doc Ock

[spider-neil]

I love Keaton, but Molina's Ock is nigh untouchable in the comic book movie villain world.

Vulture is second favourite movie Spider-Man villain. It would have been Goblin but that suit is just too rubbish. A villain has to be good visually and also put in a good performance.

 

[AnneFan]

Vulture is second favourite movie Spider-Man villain. It would have been Goblin but that suit is just too rubbish. A villain has to be good visually and also put in a good performance.

I agree with that. Doc Ock, Vulture and Goblin are my top three as well. All very good in their own ways.

 

[Abudefduf]

This guy and it's not even a contest.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Yeah, I'll be the first to say I was not keen on the Vulture design (visual) back when we got our first glimpse. It looked and worked out so well in the movie--it's now one of my favorite designed villains in all the Spider-Man films.

 

[Frodo]

I'll say Ock, but I'll say Keaton is certainly the most threatening and menacing of the Spiderman villains we've seen to date , by far imo. He really didn't even need the costume to convince you.

He may not have been evil, but you were certainly convinced that he would kill Peter Parker if he needed to.

The other villains threatened , went after him, and tried to kill him, but alot of them were acting, and perhaps directed to act, more in the Burton/Schumacer Batman over the top villain mode, with Church perhaps being an exception in Spiderman 3.

Keaton played it more like this is a guy you don't wanna cross as opposed to an over the top villain.

 

[JB33]

I'll say Ock, but I'll say Keaton is certainly the most threatening and menacing of the Spiderman villains we've seen to date , by far imo. He really didn't even need the costume to convince you.

He may not have been evil, but you were certainly convinced that he would kill Peter Parker if he needed to.

The other villains threatened , went after him, and tried to kill him, but alot of them were acting, and perhaps directed to act, more in the Burton/Schumacer Batman over the top villain mode, with Church perhaps being an exception in Spiderman 3.

Keaton played it more like this is a guy you don't wanna cross as opposed to an over the top villain.

Church's Sandman is so underrated. It was like he was ripped straight from the comic book page.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Doc Ock EASILY! Such a well rounded character with an interesting arc, fantastic action sequences, great dialogue and memorable music. Even Dafoe's Goblin is better than Vulture. .

I agree on that point, and I say that with no disrespect to Keaton as Vulture. I've always felt that the difference in quality between Dafoe's Goblin and Molina's Ock was very small. I understand that the tech suit wasn't for everyone, but Dafoe more than made up for any design problems with his performance.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Keaton was really good as Vulture, but Doc Ock is still the better villain.

 

[TheWallCrawler]

Vulture was good, but Ock was a bit more charismatic. Design-wise both are equally cool

 

[metaphysician]

Church's Sandman is so underrated. It was like he was ripped straight from the comic book page.

Being "ripped straight from the comic book page" isn't always a virtue. In the case of Spider-man 3, Sandman was one of the leading causes of the plot being thematically incoherent. The plot expected you to be sympathetic towards him, and ultimately to support Spider-man just letting him go, despite him spending the whole movie being a murderous supervillain. All the imagery in the world won't change that he was never held accountable, and never took responsibility.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I think the thing that Ock had that Keaton as Vulture lacked was pathos.

Spoiler

Dock Ock lost who he cared about, whereas Keaton was fighting for providing for his family.

I personally think that Green Goblin's the most sinister villain, but Keaton has an element of subtleness that makes him feel more plausible.

So I think Doc Ock is the most well rounded villain, Green Goblin is the best combination of silliness and horror, and Vulture is an above average villain.

I can't really remember the Lizard in ASM, and I don't like pretty much any of the villains in ASM2.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I think the thing that Ock had that Keaton as Vulture lacked was pathos.

Spoiler

Dock Ock lost who he cared about, whereas Keaton was fighting for providing for his family.

I personally think that Green Goblin's the most sinister villain, but Keaton has an element of subtleness that makes him feel more plausible.

So I think Doc Ock is the most well rounded villain, Green Goblin is the best combination of silliness and horror, and Vulture is an above average villain.

I can't really remember the Lizard in ASM, and I don't like pretty much any of the villains in ASM2.

My main issue with that is that it's not a pathos that should be attributed to Ock. Comic Ock isn't driven by the loss of a loved obe or an evil artificial intelligence. His motivations are much more complex.

Which is why, even though SM2 Ock was done very well...he wasn't Doc Ock to me. He was a more watered down version of a more interesting character.

 

[Frodo]

I guess I really don't consider the of Ock SM2 a villain, in a sense, given the way he was portrayed and written. He's the antagonist by definition, but I see him more as an opponent to Spiderman than a villain in the vain of Norman Osborn, Adrian Toomes, or even Eddie Brock.

He falls more into a grey area with Kurt Connors , Flint Marko, and Franco's Harry Osborn imo.

That's why I actually think Norman and Adrian are better villains while Ock was a stronger ,more interesting character.

 

[TheWallCrawler]

My main issue with that is that it's not a pathos that should be attributed to Ock. Comic Ock isn't driven by the loss of a loved obe or an evil artificial intelligence. His motivations are much more complex.

Which is why, even though SM2 Ock was done very well...he wasn't Doc Ock to me. He was a more watered down version of a more interesting character.

The AI thing I never liked about it. There was no reason the tentacles had to be AI, why not just have the death of Rose be solely what made him snap? That would've made his subsequent villainy more tragically striking. I'm not too familiar with comicbook Ock but I've gathered that he's cold, calculative and smug. I'd like that to be the base for marvel's version, if we ever get one

 

[YJ1]

I really liked Keaton but honestly ALL THREE Raimi movies gave us better villains. Norman and Ock are givens but Harry really nailed it in the third film. Forget the overcrowded others and "mental breakdown Harry Goblin" was WONDERFUL. Plus, that opening sky battle still holds as one of the best action sequences ever in a CBM. Better than the Vulture tussle.

 

[Infinity9999x]

The AI thing I never liked about it. There was no reason the tentacles had to be AI, why not just have the death of Rose be solely what made him snap? That would've made his subsequent villainy more tragically striking. I'm not too familiar with comicbook Ock but I've gathered that he's cold, calculative and smug. I'd like that to be the base for marvel's version, if we ever get one

Well, comic Ock is much more complicated. He's not someone who is motivated by the death of his love interest. That's not Ock.

What made Ock fascinating to me is that Ock is the true Anti-Peter Parker. He had a similar upbringing with a few key differences.

He was a nerdy unpopular kid who loved science. He was bullied throughout childhood. His mother doted on him heavily, to the point of extreme overbearing, and his father was an abusive alcoholic who ended up leaving the family. So Ock does have a tragic past...but suffered trauma's that were much longer and had a deeper impact on his psyche than losing his wife.

Ock had an accident that granted him great power...but because of his upbringing, he decided to use that power to prove how he was better than the average man. That he should rule over the average man. He had a very similar path that Peter had...he just chose the other direction.

Choice. That's what made Ock so fascinating to me. Because it has always been his choice to be who he is. He wasn't blinded by grief and the loss of a loving wife, he wasn't influenced by outside AI, he chose to become who he is. Just like Peter choose to become Spider-man.

SM2 removed this aspect of him. And as such, significantly lessened the complexity of his nature. They essentially gave him a backstory that fit more with Curt Connors than Otto Octavious. And that's why, as well executed as Molina's Ock was, I was never a fan. It wasn't Doc Ock. It wasn't the Ock I read in the comics, and it wasn't the Ock I wanted to see.

 

[KAW]

This is an easy one, The Vulture, because he wasn't an all-out sympathetic dimwit.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I guess I really don't consider the of Ock SM2 a villain, in a sense, given the way he was portrayed and written. He's the antagonist by definition, but I see him more as an opponent to Spiderman than a villain in the vain of Norman Osborn, Adrian Toomes, or even Eddie Brock.
.

He was pretty deplorable, even given the AI control. He threw Aunt May off of a building, threatened to kill Mary Jane by peeling her bones (eww) and was willing to sacrifice a train of people, including kids, just to get away from Spider-man. There was most definitely darkness in him before the accident.

 

[Lantern Venom]

This is an easy one, The Vulture, because he wasn't an all-out sympathetic dimwit.

You can't honestly think Ock is a dimwit. He's one of my least favorite comic book characters, and even I know that he's a genius in every adaptation in which he's appeared.

 

[Infinity9999x]

He was pretty deplorable, even given the AI control. He threw Aunt May off of a building, threatened to kill Mary Jane by peeling her bones (eww) and was willing to sacrifice a train of people, including kids, just to get away from Spider-man. There was most definitely darkness in him before the accident.

This is true, and while Molina was in Ock mode I quite enjoyed it. The problem is he shouldn't have needed any influence from an external intelligence at all. And we also don't know how much of that was because of influence from the AI. But the fact that we have to have the AI discussion period really undermines the character.

 

[The Joker]

He was pretty deplorable, even given the AI control. He threw Aunt May off of a building, threatened to kill Mary Jane by peeling her bones (eww) and was willing to sacrifice a train of people, including kids, just to get away from Spider-man. There was most definitely darkness in him before the accident.

Correct. Especially the bold part. When Spidey swung in at the demonstration and tried to unplug the reactor, Otto viciously smashed him into the wall hard enough to shatter the bricks. That there was the seeds of Doc Ock.

You can't honestly think Ock is a dimwit. He's one of my least favorite comic book characters, and even I know that he's a genius in every adaptation in which he's appeared.

KAW is a previously banned user; http://forums.superherohype.com/member.php?u=83813

Stupid opinions often come from PBUs.

 

[Frodo]

He was pretty deplorable, even given the AI control. He threw Aunt May off of a building, threatened to kill Mary Jane by peeling her bones (eww) and was willing to sacrifice a train of people, including kids, just to get away from Spider-man. There was most definitely darkness in him before the accident.

He had darkness in him, but his motivation was basically completing his experiment as opposed to be true driven by dark impulses or being evil. The guy and threw Aunt May to distract Spiderman so he could get away with money and his experiment. He kidnapped MJ as part of a plan the lure Spiderman out.

Remember , his goal was to capture Spiderman and bring him to harry in exchange for the element that his machine needed. The subway fight was a result of the deal with Harry , not because he wanted to terrorize a train full of people for the sake of it.

He did everything for his experiment . I'm not arguing that he was a decent guy. I'm just saying that I don't consider him a villain in the same vain as Norman or Adrian. I think he's the stronger character , but I don't think I'd argue he was a better villain . That's just me though.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

He was pretty deplorable, even given the AI control. He threw Aunt May off of a building, threatened to kill Mary Jane by peeling her bones (eww) and was willing to sacrifice a train of people, including kids, just to get away from Spider-man. There was most definitely darkness in him before the accident.

To the emboldened...I don't believe that for a second. Otto was painted as a good person.

Every example you gave of him being deplorable, was because he was under the influence of the AI.

 

[LaughterLives]

I much prefer Doc Ock but the way he was portrayed in Spider-Man 2 didn't make him a villain to me.
He was under an influence and then he dies a hero even if only Spidey knew it. Vulture chose the life of a villain the second he realized he can get away with it. Out of the 2 he's the only actual villain here so he's my pick.

 

[Avenging Angel]

Doc although Vulture had his motives but he was more human at the end of it. Whereas I think Doc would have revealed Peter's identity to the public in the middle of his villain tirade.