8.11 - Legion - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[amazingfantasy15]

You know, my son has a friend who sounds exactly like you.

'But doomsday isn't a guy, he's a bone covered monster...'

I know that and anyone who's read those books or seen that Sueprman/Doomsday movie knows that, but in the end does it really matter?

Well Halle Barry dressed in a leather catsuit and called herself Catwoman, in the end does it really matter... Bane was big and strong and used Venom in Batman and Robin, does it really matter...

They made this a different kind of doomsday, but he's still a monster inside... A real full-time doomsday that didn't have the problem Davis has, thinking he's human, wouldn't have worked nearly as well.

Doomsday was never a monster inside, he was just a monster, this character is more an evil Hulk than Doomsday. I don't care about Doomsday having problems, Doomsday never had problems, he was and still is just a killing machine. That why he was created both as a character and his origin in the comics, to kill.

The dramatic irony is awesome. It's like Lex Luthor fighting his destiny to becoming a villain, but ten times better.

Davis is a tormented character who is fighting his destiny, like Lex did, but it'll be impossible for him to do in the long-run: he isn't fighting some inner demons, a bad childhood or crummy homelife. He's going to be a monster no matter what he wants.

Lex was destined to become a villian as well, I don't see what's so different, other than Lex didn't become a monster on the outside. It's just Lex all over again, but much faster paced because there is no inner struggle. Besides, what's he doing to try and be good, work as a paramedic. If he was really trying to be good, he'd be trying to find out what he is and "cure" himself.

They've given Davis a strong 'villain's journey' to counter Clark's hero's journey.

I LOVE Davis and Sam is a terrific actor.

I like what they've done to "Smallville-ize" the character, so I have no complaints.

Where's the journey, paramedic transforms to monster, he has absolutely no control over the change, but when he wakes up, he makes sure to coverup the murders he's commited. Also, Clark shouldn't be on his journey anymore, he knows what he needs to do, but still doesn't do anything besides stopping a random mugging unless the threat comes to his door and hurts/attacks a member of the family or friends. He should be helped Oliver with the Justice League, he should learn to fly, he should try to repair the fortress and learn what Jor-El wants to teach him, he should be trying to become the hero everyone in his life says he needs to be.

 

[DIRECTOR]

Brainiac 5 information

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainiac_5

 

[Mikelus]

Doomsday was never a monster inside, he was just a monster, this character is more an evil Hulk than Doomsday. I don't care about Doomsday having problems, Doomsday never had problems, he was and still is just a killing machine. That why he was created both as a character and his origin in the comics, to kill.

So? A mere monster is not that interesting, they needed more character development to add depth to the story. But if you are part of the "I hate it, is not like the comics!" crowd, bad for you.

It reminds me of the whole perma-white debate or the new Batman suit, TDK was great despite these minor changes. If the changes contribute something positive or are an improvement on the original story, then why not, the world is not going to end, change is part of it.

 

[triplet]

Well Halle Barry dressed in a leather catsuit and called herself Catwoman, in the end does it really matter... Bane was big and strong and used Venom in Batman and Robin, does it really matter...

The difference is the respect for the original character.

Halle Barry's Catwoman changed so much about her it wasn't *really* her.

The drama here comes because he's fighting his nature. There isn't a nature vs. nurture debate. He *is* a monster.

I think that the version of Doomsday that Smallville is bringing to us is different, yes, but at its core the character is doomsday from the comics.

Doomsday was never a monster inside, he was just a monster, this character is more an evil Hulk than Doomsday. I don't care about Doomsday having problems, Doomsday never had problems, he was and still is just a killing machine. That why he was created both as a character and his origin in the comics, to kill.

This Doomsday was created as a weapon, intended to destroy. He is also a monster.

They've distilling the character to its core. The details are different, but the essence of the character hasn't really changed. He is a monster.

What's important about Doomsday to us as Smallville fans? I see it as three things:

1. He was created to destroy
2. Is able to kill Clark
3. Is nearly impossible to kill

Everything else is there to create dramatic tension.

If he came in exactly the way the comic character was designed, it would make for a very short tenure on the show.

Would you prefer that over what we have?

He'd be like Titan or even how the Persuader was last week?

If he was like that, there'd be one episode where he came in and had a fight with Clark and either Clark would defeat him or he'd come close to killing Clark.

One episode and his story would be over...

Would that show respect for the impact Doomsday has on Clark's story? I don't think so, and it wouldn't make for great TV either.

He'd be reduced to being no better than any other freak-of-the-week.

Lex was destined to become a villian as well, I don't see what's so different, other than Lex didn't become a monster on the outside. It's just Lex all over again, but much faster paced because there is no inner struggle. Besides, what's he doing to try and be good, work as a paramedic. If he was really trying to be good, he'd be trying to find out what he is and "cure" himself.

Not it's not like Lex all over again...

Lex always had the chance to change himself, to take a different course than he took. He didn't choose that because he was destined to become Clark's enemy.

Where's the journey, paramedic transforms to monster, he has absolutely no control over the change, but when he wakes up, he makes sure to coverup the murders he's commited.

Davis is an interesting character exactly because no matter what he does, or how much he hates it, in the end he cannot fight his nature: He is a monster, he will destroy.

He can't change it and will have to try and cover up his crimes, but that will only work for so long... We know that and he doesn't.

That's dramatic irony, we know something the character doesn't. The whole series is based on dramatic irony, so this is no different.

The dramatic irony will only add to his story arc. It will create conflict and give him obstacles he will need to try and overcome.

You have to give the character obstacles to overcome or the show would be boring as hell... Davis has a pretty serious obstacle to overcome, or fail to overcome, to fight his nature.

How he deals with this dilemma will reveal a lot about who he is even as he fails to fight his own monstrous destiny.

Davis' struggles against his own nature will reveal a lot about his character. This will create a dramatic story that will be far more engaging than just him showing up one day and fighting Clark.

Why anyone would want *just* that, I can't understand...

Also, Clark shouldn't be on his journey anymore, he knows what he needs to do, but still doesn't do anything besides stopping a random mugging unless the threat comes to his door and hurts/attacks a member of the family or friends. He should be helped Oliver with the Justice League, he should learn to fly, he should try to repair the fortress and learn what Jor-El wants to teach him, he should be trying to become the hero everyone in his life says he needs to be.

Until the final episode, he will still be on a journey to becoming Superman. That is what this show is about.

Once Clark's journey is over, the show is over.

Many argue that maybe it should have ended years ago, or become something else, but it hasn't.

This show is about Clark Kent learning to be a hero, he's not done yet, and I don't have a problem with them putting off the inevitable a little while longer, I'm still enjoying the show...

 

[Syncos]

Doomsday was never a monster inside, he was just a monster, this character is more an evil Hulk than Doomsday. I don't care about Doomsday having problems, Doomsday never had problems, he was and still is just a killing machine. That why he was created both as a character and his origin in the comics, to kill.

Doomsday was created as a means to sell comics. He was a force, not a character. He had no "character". He was just a big boney monster who couldn't be killed that was developed so that he could kill Superman.

This isn't a direct translation of the main DCU. It's an elseworlds. One where they've decided to give Doomsday a re imaging and a decent background.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

I'm all for the change of making DD's character more developed for Smallville purposes but their fight better be the most mindless slobberknocker since the Titan/Clark throwdown.

 

[AgentPat]

Seriously. What's going on in here lately? Remember when people who actually like the show used to post?

Speaking for myself, I got tired of responding to people who think there is something wrong with you if you don't share their opinion, or arguing about details just for the sake of argument. For the record Mikelus, if I come away from an episode with a "meh" feeling, it's not because I think I could have done a better job or that I have some imaginary hatred to one of the show's characters. Grow up. I watch SV to be entertained. Many factors contribute to that or take away from it as in the case of Legion. I explained my reasons. That doesn't mean I hated the ep, nor does it mean there's something wrong with me. It simply means the ep didn't blow my skirt up compared to other eps. Got that? Good. Lets move on.

I agree with Ariellem's critiques the most and appreciate the response from Ahura Mazda about where the heck Clark is in the future. I just wish explanations like that were actually in the episode, which is why I said there was too much of one thing and not enough of another. 04nbod's speculation that Johns wrote the ep more from a Superboy angle since there were no characters from Superman's future makes sense, but that doesn't make it more entertaining for me. I've greatly enjoyed this season because of all the winks and nods to Clark's future: the focus on him at the Daily Planet, the Lois anvils and her growing relationship with Clark, and the overall upbeat flavor of the stories in general. I also liked that they were getting away from some of the elements that I felt dragged the show down in the past. To explain further would only invite ire, so I'll end it here.

We all watch the show for different reasons. To the producer's credit, they have done a great job of dishing out enough morsels to keep all fan groups watching - even the loonies at TWoP - and that is quite an achievement. Now if only Ostroff would just go away and stop trying to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[Mikelus]

The drama here comes because he's fighting his nature. There isn't a nature vs. nurture debate. He *is* a monster.

I think that the version of Doomsday that Smallville is bringing to us is different, yes, but at its core the character is doomsday from the comics.

This Doomsday was created as a weapon, intended to destroy. He is also a monster.

They've distilling the character to its core. The details are different, but the essence of the character hasn't really changed. He is a monster.

What's important about Doomsday to us as Smallville fans? I see it as three things:

1. He was created to destroy
2. Is able to kill Clark
3. Is nearly impossible to kill

Everything else is there to create dramatic tension.

If he came in exactly the way the comic character was designed, it would make for a very short tenure on the show.

Would you prefer that over what we have?

He'd be like Titan or even how the Persuader was last week?

If he was like that, there'd be one episode where he came in and had a fight with Clark and either Clark would defeat him or he'd come close to killing Clark.

One episode and his story would be over...

Would that show respect for the impact Doomsday has on Clark's story? I don't think so, and it wouldn't make for great TV either.

He'd be reduced to being no better than any other freak-of-the-week.

Well said, Geoff Johns was skeptical about the whole Davis angle, but since he knows more than we do, he seems to like it now:

Comments from "Legion" writer Geoff Johns also imply episode #10 will be a big event: "I can tell you with confidence, the season they have planned is easily the most ambitious to date," he said in a forum posting. "There are so many twists and turns. And episode 10. Episode 10 is INSANE. My episode is now 11, so it's going to be a hard act to follow, but I'll give it my all. I have to say too, that if they pull off where they're taking Doomsday...I mean, I didn't understand where they were going when they announced that Doomsday had a human alter ego. But it's freaking cool. As hell. And fans of the comics are going to be blown away when everything is actually revealed. It's really pretty spectacular."

source: K-Site

 

[amazingfantasy15]

Doomsday was created as a means to sell comics. He was a force, not a character. He had no "character". He was just a big boney monster who couldn't be killed that was developed so that he could kill Superman.

This isn't a direct translation of the main DCU. It's an elseworlds. One where they've decided to give Doomsday a re imaging and a decent background.

Which means he's not Doomsday. I'm not saying Doomsday was a great character when he was brought into the comics, he really wasn't even good. However, giving him a backstory means he's no longer Doomsday. Plus it's a boring story arc because there's no decision, it's just waiting for him to finally fight Clark.

 

[triplet]

Seriously. What's going on in here lately? Remember when people who actually like the show used to post?

Yeah, I'm confused why the tone seems to be so negative all of a sudden, but whatever...

I really liked this episode.

Individual mileage definitely does vary.

 

[Syncos]

Which means he's not Doomsday. I'm not saying Doomsday was a great character when he was brought into the comics, he really wasn't even good. However, giving him a backstory means he's no longer Doomsday. Plus it's a boring story arc because there's no decision, it's just waiting for him to finally fight Clark.

Was he a kryptonian experiment? check.
Can he not be killed the same way twice? check.
Does he inevitably become a large monster that's sole purpose is to wreck things? check.

I don't see your problem. There's a lot of points akin to his comic counterpart. They just wrote him in a way that's interesting. Taking liberties with a character as long as they keep the integrity of the character intact is alright. after all, Smallville has it's own canon.

The Dark Knight takes tons of liberties with the Batman franchise. but it's still a Batman movie.

 

[Webhead2006]

yea so true there.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Best Allusions to Superman quotes by Lightning Lad

Hey Kal, where's your cape? - Lightning Lad!

You may be known as Clark Kent now, but one day you will be known as Sup... - Lightning Lad!

I don't know. No glasses, no tights, no flights. So far he's nothing like the Man of Steel. - Lightning Lad

 

[Syncos]

Yeah, I'm confused why the tone seems to be so negative all of a sudden, but whatever...

I really liked this episode.

Individual mileage definitely does vary.

I believe the Legion episode brought a bunch of people around who don't watch Smallville regularly.

I'm sure it'll simmer down again once said people get bored.

 

[Cmill216]

I'm with Syncos. I was very wary of this "human alter ego" thing they were doing with Doomsday, because it was such a stark contrast to how he's been presented in the comics and other adaptations.

But all they've really done here is add an extra ounce of depth to him, while still remaining faithful to many of his core characteristics, including his appearance. To be honest, the purist "he's just a monster" concept isn't even that great of an idea.

 

[The Caped Knight]

The Dark Knight takes tons of liberties with the Batman franchise. but it's still a Batman movie.

Even with all the amount of liberties Nolan & company took Both BB & TDK stayed true to the source material established in Batman's mythology .

Smallville hasn't for the most part, However this season they've seemed to really have gotten back on track in that area as Clark moves forward towards becoming Superman .

 

[triplet]

Was he a kryptonian experiment? check.
Can he not be killed the same way twice? check.
Does he inevitably become a large monster that's sole purpose is to wreck things? check.

I don't see your problem. There's a lot of points akin to his comic counterpart. They just wrote him in a way that's interesting. Taking liberties with a character as long as they keep the integrity of the character intact is alright. after all, Smallville has it's own canon.

The Dark Knight takes tons of liberties with the Batman franchise. but it's still a Batman movie.

QFT!

I believe the Legion episode brought a bunch of people around who don't watch Smallville regularly.

I'm sure it'll simmer down again once said people get bored.

Oh, yeah... prolly true.

I'm with Syncos. I was very wary of this "human alter ego" thing they were doing with Doomsday, because it was such a stark contrast to how he's been presented in the comics and other adaptations.

But all they've really done here is add an extra ounce of depth to him, while still remaining faithful to many of his core characteristics, including his appearance. To be honest, the purist "he's just a monster" concept isn't even that great of an idea.

Exactly. I basically thought the same thing, unsure where they were going, but I liked what they've done and if Geoff Johns think where they're going is awesome, I think I'll take his word on it.

And you're right:

Him being a monster and nothing else would be pretty damn boring...

Again, QFT!

 

[Webhead2006]

so true yes at the start of the season i wasnt down with this human identity to doomsday but for smallville and where they are going with the character it does work out nicely. Now would i have liked to see just flat out monster dd heck yes. But then we would have likely got got him for like 3 episodes like season premiere, a middle episode, and season finale and all that.

 

[Mikelus]

Purists hate change for the most part, if it is not like the comics, "it sucks".

 

[KALEL114]

That's so true.

I had a thought. Do you think Clark will use the Legionnaires flight ring to defeat Doomsday? Perhaps sending him to the end of time like in the comics?

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

In all fairness, the character of Doomsday is about as one dimensional as it gets. That type of stuff will usually fly in the comics (although I'd argue that the Death of Superman was one of the worst stories ever and solely done for the purpose of creating sales for a hurting title) but it doesn't work in live action. You've got to give him something to interest people other than "ZOMG! ITs DEWMSDA! HES GUNNA RECK STUFF!!1!!!!11" There has to be some underlying motivation there atleast on some benign, base level.

I was just as skeptical as the next guy when I heard this. Especially me being the HUGE Hulk fan that I am, I was very leary of the concept of having him effectively shape-shift between the two characters. But thus far, I'll give the show credit. They've made it work. I'm intrigued by the character of Davis Bloom and so far Doomsday hasnt kicked any less ass when we've seen him. Sometimes change for the sake of change sucks, but other times it brings about good things. It's how the Superman character got to where he is today.

 

[YÅ«gi's BM]

The JLU origin of Doomsday was great, too. So in conclusion: whee!

This episode was neat, I'd really liked to see more of the Legion.

 

[blksuperman2]

It's funny to hear people complain about every single character SV introduces. Now the hate on Doomsday? Doomsday is the single worst character because of his 1 dimension. Even when a comic writer tries to give him depth he's still lame. A few years ago when Gog was introduced into continuity they decided to give Doomsday feelings. Gog was about to kill Superman and Doomsday took offense because he felt like he's the only one who should kill Superman. He ends up teaming up w/ Supes and later when the world thought Supes was dead he actually started wearing The \S/ emblem.

LOL I'd rather have SV's version of Doomsday then the comic version any day.

 

[Serene]

Speaking for myself, I got tired of responding to people who think there is something wrong with you if you don't share their opinion, or arguing about details just for the sake of argument. For the record Mikelus, if I come away from an episode with a "meh" feeling, it's not because I think I could have done a better job or that I have some imaginary hatred to one of the show's characters. Grow up. I watch SV to be entertained. Many factors contribute to that or take away from it as in the case of Legion. I explained my reasons. That doesn't mean I hated the ep, nor does it mean there's something wrong with me. It simply means the ep didn't blow my skirt up compared to other eps. Got that? Good. Lets move on.

Also for the record: I've never had a problem with criticisms of episodes from people who I know are fans of the show (yourself included). What does get annoying is when I see the usuals from my Ignore list crawling out of the woodwork to do their usual whining and complaining because that's ALL THEY EVER DO.

I'll never understand why would anyone waste their time watching a show they have no respect for. And don't say because it's a Superman show, because if you really feel so strongly that SV sucks and "bastardizes" your vision of Superman then isn't that even more reason not to watch? Unless of course, you (generic "you") just like to complain - but that's a whole other issue.

 

[Cmill216]

A few years ago when Gog was introduced into continuity they decided to give Doomsday feelings. Gog was about to kill Superman and Doomsday took offense because he felt like he's the only one who should kill Superman. He ends up teaming up w/ Supes and later when the world thought Supes was dead he actually started wearing The \S/ emblem.

Are you serious??? That's amazing.