8.11 - Legion - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

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Yeah, I'm confused why the tone seems to be so negative all of a sudden, but whatever...

I really liked this episode.

Individual mileage definitely does vary.

Here is the problem, there is stuff I hate about the show. I don't really care for Clark's life to be written using scripts that Dawson Creek didn't feel were usuable for TV mainly. I also don't like the show runners feel the need to build up female character X by dumbing Clark down.

I want to see a show about a guy who may have a couple problems in his life but isn't constantly depressed, and that guy should be the main character on the show and everything should be written on it to put Clark in the best light at the end of the day.

And this is were my frustrations come from Legion(which i did think was a good episode for the most part) and alot of the spoilers coming out recently. Do the fans of the show really need it shoved down our throat how important Lana Lang is? Worse off is the fact they feel the need to play up Lana's "importance" only tells me they are going to regress to the crappy Lana plots I despise on the show for the next 3 episodes doing no favors for Clark Kent's character.

We really didn't need Irma telling Lana 2 times how important she was and refering to all her "sacrifices"(like what sacrifices, sleeping with Lex and Bizzaro?). I wonder if the producers realize that alot of viewers view Lana as a major hinderence to Clark's life and they seem to have a very unhealthy relationship, but the producers pass it off like Lana can do no wrong and Clark is the problem. Beyond that, did they really need Clark to run to Lana so she could tell him it's wrong to kill Chloe? I hated this storyline when Clark had to constantly run to Chloe in seasons 5-7 and while the Lana/Clark scene not as bad as some similar Chloe/Clark scenes from previous years, I wish they could make Clark more often then not be able to come to 'obvious' conclusion independantly without looking like a clueless meathead who needs female character X to tell him how to act(only to build that character up, as if Clark needs somebody to fill the role of his brain in his life)

Message to producers, Kristen is leaving in 3 episodes and Clark will hopefully be on the show come Season 9(so that 30 more episodes after she leaves). It's in there best interest to make these Lana episodes about Clark moving on with his life so he looks like a stronger character, not some 5 episode arc about how wonderful Lana is and her getting(according to producers) some heroic sendoff. What's the use of going all out trying to please a group of fans who won't give 2 poops about the show once Lana leaves, and in the process demeaning the main character of the show just to build up the almighty Lana. I know I MAY be jumping the gun on my belief but the way Lana was written in Legion brought out all my fears how she would be used.

What makes matters worse is the one female character I do not find that demeans the character of Clark Kent(that being Lois)constantly gets spit all over. With Lois we hardly get the angsty plots that involve Lana or meathead Clark who hangs around Chloe(who to often needs to be saved), instead Clark is usually proactive and doesn't have to think twice about crap and involved in scenes that are more light hearted. Basically for the first 10 episodes we constantly see Lois gaining feelings for Clark, with Clark being ambigious about his feelings for her, the one episode he actually shows initiative, boom she is gone for 4 episodes and when she comes back we seem to get a AU type episode that will be erased and then she isn't in 2 of the next 3 episode(and that one episode she is playing Chloe). If they planned to cut romantic Clois mid stream, they shouldn't have played it up so much those first 10 episodes, they should have just waited till this Lana arc was over then start there. Beyond that it seems like the writers over the years alot of times like putting Lois in a bad light(kicked out of college, drinking, sleeping with her editor, getting stuff magically come out of air for her like a pay raise) which doesn't do wonders for her character and weren't needed for plot purposes. While I don't want Clark's character demeaned to build Lois up, why the producers constantly demean Clark to build up Chloe and Lana is beyond me, yet they tear down Lois(who we all know is supposed to be the love of his life) when it not needed. It's almost as if the showrunners feel that Lana and (to a much lesser degree) Chloe are there 2 big "additions" to the mythos and in there minds they have to make both more important then they should be to put there stamp on the Superman legend, all while passing off Lois as comic relief. (Getting back to Legion's ramifications on the show overall)What makes it worse is I feel when all is said and done Lois will be made to look like 2nd choice, after Lana "sacrifices" herself for the better good of the world.
 
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:funny:

Are you serious??? That's amazing.

Yep. I was just going from memory but wiki pretty much sums it up. link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_(comics)



The present day Gog attacks Superman when Doomsday returns to Earth with newfound sentience and begins discovering emotions during his rampage. Doomsday arrives to see Superman on the verge of death after being beaten by an army of Gogs. Doomsday leaps to Superman’s defense just as Gog is about to kill him. Doomsday’s attempt to save Superman fails as Gog successfully kills him.
Over the next two-hundred years, Doomsday leads an army in Superman’s name against Gog. This future is erased when it is revealed that Gog didn’t actually kill Superman but has instead been keeping him prisoner and surrounded by Kryptonite.
Gog offers Superman the chance to go back in time and kill him. Superman eventually shows Gog the error of his ways when Doomsday bursts in and rescues Superman. Gog then offers Doomsday the chance to go back and erase this future at the cost of his own sentience which he agrees to. In the present, the present day Gog teleports away an unconscious Doomsday for unknown reasons.
 
..and just in case you ever want to read this garbage, It was this comic............I think.

actioncomics_825_Large_.jpg
 
Here is the problem, there is stuff I hate about the show. I don't really care for Clark's life to be written using scripts that Dawson Creek didn't feel were usuable for TV mainly. I also don't like the show runners feel the need to build up female character X by dumbing Clark down.

I want to see a show about a guy who may have a couple problems in his life but isn't constantly depressed, and that guy should be the main character on the show and everything should be written on it to put Clark in the best light at the end of the day.

And this is were my frustrations come from Legion(which i did think was a good episode for the most part) and alot of the spoilers coming out recently. Do the fans of the show really need it shoved down our throat how important Lana Lang is? Worse off is the fact they feel the need to play up Lana's "importance" only tells me they are going to regress to the crappy Lana plots I despise on the show for the next 3 episodes doing no favors for Clark Kent's character.

We really didn't need Irma telling Lana 2 times how important she was and refering to all her "sacrifices"(like what sacrifices, sleeping with Lex and Bizzaro?). I wonder if the producers realize that alot of viewers view Lana as a major hinderence to Clark's life and they seem to have a very unhealthy relationship, but the producers pass it off like Lana can do no wrong and Clark is the problem. Beyond that, did they really need Clark to run to Lana so she could tell him it's wrong to kill Chloe? I hated this storyline when Clark had to constantly run to Chloe in seasons 5-7 and while the Lana/Clark scene not as bad as some similar Chloe/Clark scenes from previous years, I wish they could make Clark more often then not be able to come to 'obvious' conclusion independantly without looking like a clueless meathead who needs female character X to tell him how to act(only to build that character up, as if Clark needs somebody to fill the role of his brain in his life)

Message to producers, Kristen is leaving in 3 episodes and Clark will hopefully be on the show come Season 9(so that 30 more episodes after she leaves). It's in there best interest to make these Lana episodes about Clark moving on with his life so he looks like a stronger character, not some 5 episode arc about how wonderful Lana is and her getting(according to producers) some heroic sendoff. What's the use of going all out trying to please a group of fans who won't give 2 poops about the show once Lana leaves, and in the process demeaning the main character of the show just to build up the almighty Lana. I know I MAY be jumping the gun on my belief but the way Lana was written in Legion brought out all my fears how she would be used.


QFT!:applaud:applaud:up::up:
 
Here is the problem, there is stuff I hate about the show. I don't really care for Clark's life to be written using scripts that Dawson Creek didn't feel were usuable for TV mainly. I also don't like the show runners feel the need to build up female character X by dumbing Clark down.

I want to see a show about a guy who may have a couple problems in his life but isn't constantly depressed, and that guy should be the main character on the show and everything should be written on it to put Clark in the best light at the end of the day.

And this is were my frustrations come from Legion(which i did think was a good episode for the most part) and alot of the spoilers coming out recently. Do the fans of the show really need it shoved down our throat how important Lana Lang is? Worse off is the fact they feel the need to play up Lana's "importance" only tells me they are going to regress to the crappy Lana plots I despise on the show for the next 3 episodes doing no favors for Clark Kent's character.

We really didn't need Irma telling Lana 2 times how important she was and refering to all her "sacrifices"(like what sacrifices, sleeping with Lex and Bizzaro?). I wonder if the producers realize that alot of viewers view Lana as a major hinderence to Clark's life and they seem to have a very unhealthy relationship, but the producers pass it off like Lana can do no wrong and Clark is the problem. Beyond that, did they really need Clark to run to Lana so she could tell him it's wrong to kill Chloe? I hated this storyline when Clark had to constantly run to Chloe in seasons 5-7 and while the Lana/Clark scene not as bad as some similar Chloe/Clark scenes from previous years, I wish they could make Clark more often then not be able to come to 'obvious' conclusion independantly without looking like a clueless meathead who needs female character X to tell him how to act(only to build that character up, as if Clark needs somebody to fill the role of his brain in his life)

Message to producers, Kristen is leaving in 3 episodes and Clark will hopefully be on the show come Season 9(so that 30 more episodes after she leaves). It's in there best interest to make these Lana episodes about Clark moving on with his life so he looks like a stronger character, not some 5 episode arc about how wonderful Lana is and her getting(according to producers) some heroic sendoff. What's the use of going all out trying to please a group of fans who won't give 2 poops about the show once Lana leaves, and in the process demeaning the main character of the show just to build up the almighty Lana. I know I MAY be jumping the gun on my belief but the way Lana was written in Legion brought out all my fears how she would be used.

What makes matters worse is the one female character I do not find that demeans the character of Clark Kent(that being Lois)constantly gets spit all over. With Lois we hardly get the angsty plots that involve Lana or meathead Clark who hangs around Chloe(who to often needs to be saved), instead Clark is usually proactive and doesn't have to think twice about crap and involved in scenes that are more light hearted. Basically for the first 10 episodes we constantly see Lois gaining feelings for Clark, with Clark being ambigious about his feelings for her, the one episode he actually shows initiative, boom she is gone for 4 episodes and when she comes back we seem to get a AU type episode that will be erased and then she isn't in 2 of the next 3 episode(and that one episode she is playing Chloe). If they planned to cut romantic Clois mid stream, they shouldn't have played it up so much those first 10 episodes, they should have just waited till this Lana arc was over then start there. Beyond that it seems like the writers over the years alot of times like putting Lois in a bad light(kicked out of college, drinking, sleeping with her editor, getting stuff magically come out of air for her like a pay raise) which doesn't do wonders for her character and weren't needed for plot purposes. While I don't want Clark's character demeaned to build Lois up, why the producers constantly demean Clark to build up Chloe and Lana is beyond me, yet they tear down Lois(who we all know is supposed to be the love of his life) when it not needed. It's almost as if the showrunners feel that Lana and (to a much lesser degree) Chloe are there 2 big "additions" to the mythos and in there minds they have to make both more important then they should be to put there stamp on the Superman legend, all while passing off Lois as comic relief. (Getting back to Legion's ramifications on the show overall)What makes it worse is I feel when all is said and done Lois will be made to look like 2nd choice, after Lana "sacrifices" herself for the better good of the world.

:up: :up: :up:
 
Here is the problem, there is stuff I hate about the show. I don't really care for Clark's life to be written using scripts that Dawson Creek didn't feel were usuable for TV mainly. I also don't like the show runners feel the need to build up female character X by dumbing Clark down.

I want to see a show about a guy who may have a couple problems in his life but isn't constantly depressed, and that guy should be the main character on the show and everything should be written on it to put Clark in the best light at the end of the day.

And this is were my frustrations come from Legion(which i did think was a good episode for the most part) and alot of the spoilers coming out recently. Do the fans of the show really need it shoved down our throat how important Lana Lang is? Worse off is the fact they feel the need to play up Lana's "importance" only tells me they are going to regress to the crappy Lana plots I despise on the show for the next 3 episodes doing no favors for Clark Kent's character.

We really didn't need Irma telling Lana 2 times how important she was and refering to all her "sacrifices"(like what sacrifices, sleeping with Lex and Bizzaro?). I wonder if the producers realize that alot of viewers view Lana as a major hinderence to Clark's life and they seem to have a very unhealthy relationship, but the producers pass it off like Lana can do no wrong and Clark is the problem. Beyond that, did they really need Clark to run to Lana so she could tell him it's wrong to kill Chloe? I hated this storyline when Clark had to constantly run to Chloe in seasons 5-7 and while the Lana/Clark scene not as bad as some similar Chloe/Clark scenes from previous years, I wish they could make Clark more often then not be able to come to 'obvious' conclusion independantly without looking like a clueless meathead who needs female character X to tell him how to act(only to build that character up, as if Clark needs somebody to fill the role of his brain in his life)

Message to producers, Kristen is leaving in 3 episodes and Clark will hopefully be on the show come Season 9(so that 30 more episodes after she leaves). It's in there best interest to make these Lana episodes about Clark moving on with his life so he looks like a stronger character, not some 5 episode arc about how wonderful Lana is and her getting(according to producers) some heroic sendoff. What's the use of going all out trying to please a group of fans who won't give 2 poops about the show once Lana leaves, and in the process demeaning the main character of the show just to build up the almighty Lana. I know I MAY be jumping the gun on my belief but the way Lana was written in Legion brought out all my fears how she would be used.

What makes matters worse is the one female character I do not find that demeans the character of Clark Kent(that being Lois)constantly gets spit all over. With Lois we hardly get the angsty plots that involve Lana or meathead Clark who hangs around Chloe(who to often needs to be saved), instead Clark is usually proactive and doesn't have to think twice about crap and involved in scenes that are more light hearted. Basically for the first 10 episodes we constantly see Lois gaining feelings for Clark, with Clark being ambigious about his feelings for her, the one episode he actually shows initiative, boom she is gone for 4 episodes and when she comes back we seem to get a AU type episode that will be erased and then she isn't in 2 of the next 3 episode(and that one episode she is playing Chloe). If they planned to cut romantic Clois mid stream, they shouldn't have played it up so much those first 10 episodes, they should have just waited till this Lana arc was over then start there. Beyond that it seems like the writers over the years alot of times like putting Lois in a bad light(kicked out of college, drinking, sleeping with her editor, getting stuff magically come out of air for her like a pay raise) which doesn't do wonders for her character and weren't needed for plot purposes. While I don't want Clark's character demeaned to build Lois up, why the producers constantly demean Clark to build up Chloe and Lana is beyond me, yet they tear down Lois(who we all know is supposed to be the love of his life) when it not needed. It's almost as if the showrunners feel that Lana and (to a much lesser degree) Chloe are there 2 big "additions" to the mythos and in there minds they have to make both more important then they should be to put there stamp on the Superman legend, all while passing off Lois as comic relief. (Getting back to Legion's ramifications on the show overall)What makes it worse is I feel when all is said and done Lois will be made to look like 2nd choice, after Lana "sacrifices" herself for the better good of the world.


great post: I think this leads me back to an earlier post. SOMEONE HAS TO DECIDE WHEN THIS SHOW IS GOING TO END!!!!!!!! With a firm end date, it gives writers and producers a deadline. It allows them to look at their property, and decide (finally) on the pacing of the final chapter of the story. If season 9 is a go... then that leaves 30 odd episodes to transform clark into the real Clark Kent/Superman.

I personally think that this is too many episodes at this point in the story, and that atleast 15 of them will get watered down. I'd really advocate that they finish of season 8, and work on a 10 episode season 9, where these final 10 episodes would act as the last leg of Clark's journey.

It's about focus, and I actually think that fewer episodes will force those in power to focus on getting the story finished well, within a constrained time frame. Rather than trying to fill the extra hours of a full season with relative filler.
 
What makes matters worse is the one female character I do not find that demeans the character of Clark Kent(that being Lois)constantly gets spit all over. With Lois we hardly get the angsty plots that involve Lana or meathead Clark who hangs around Chloe(who to often needs to be saved), instead Clark is usually proactive and doesn't have to think twice about crap and involved in scenes that are more light hearted. Basically for the first 10 episodes we constantly see Lois gaining feelings for Clark, with Clark being ambigious about his feelings for her, the one episode he actually shows initiative, boom she is gone for 4 episodes and when she comes back we seem to get a AU type episode that will be erased and then she isn't in 2 of the next 3 episode(and that one episode she is playing Chloe). If they planned to cut romantic Clois mid stream, they shouldn't have played it up so much those first 10 episodes, they should have just waited till this Lana arc was over then start there. Beyond that it seems like the writers over the years alot of times like putting Lois in a bad light(kicked out of college, drinking, sleeping with her editor, getting stuff magically come out of air for her like a pay raise) which doesn't do wonders for her character and weren't needed for plot purposes. While I don't want Clark's character demeaned to build Lois up, why the producers constantly demean Clark to build up Chloe and Lana is beyond me, yet they tear down Lois(who we all know is supposed to be the love of his life) when it not needed. It's almost as if the showrunners feel that Lana and (to a much lesser degree) Chloe are there 2 big "additions" to the mythos and in there minds they have to make both more important then they should be to put there stamp on the Superman legend, all while passing off Lois as comic relief. (Getting back to Legion's ramifications on the show overall)What makes it worse is I feel when all is said and done Lois will be made to look like 2nd choice, after Lana "sacrifices" herself for the better good of the world.


QFT ! Dude do you know what a huge relief it is for me to see someone other than myself tell it like it is for a change . I've been saying this for a long time both Lana & Chole get way to much credit in the creation of Superman in this series .

For first 5 seasons straight Clark's character journey has been an Absolute joke . the first half of Season 6 the character of Clark Kent made a lot of progress towards becoming Superman. Then in the second half he reverted back to BDA from previous seasons . In season 7 he was a little more focused on his destiny with only a few episodes he wasn't so focused . The first half season 8 Clark was alot more Supermanish .

The only character that got the best character journey in this series is Lex Luthor (even when he was involved in bad sub-plot stories, Rosenbaum managed to make it work by his performance and it would just add to Lex's twisted decent to becoming the main villain of the story .)

Lois character journey overall was done well (not all parts mind you). They introduced her as the Army Brat and through the course of the series we saw her grow and develop into the woman she's destined to become . Now they just need to show why she'll become the love of Superman's life . and that she wasn't just second best .
 
QFT ! Dude do you know what a huge relief it is for me to see someone other than myself tell it like it is for a change . I've been saying this for a long time both Lana & Chole get way to much credit in the creation of Superman in this series

Lana definantly does, Chloe on the other hand does deserve some credit going by Smallville canon, but the fact they have to dumb down Clark when he is working with Chloe is what pisses me off about her character.

For first 5 seasons straight Clark's character journey has been an Absolute joke . the first half of Season 6 the character of Clark Kent made a lot of progress towards becoming Superman. Then in the second half he reverted back to BDA from previous seasons . In season 7 he was a little more focused on his destiny with only a few episodes he wasn't so focused . The first half season 8 Clark was alot more Supermanish.

I actually had no major problems(not saying I had no problems) with How Clark was written the first 4 1/2 seasons. After Johnathons death though that's when the stalling tactics for his character started popping up and the terrible writing was more prevalent. To counteract the lovesick puppy Clark plots from seasons 5-7 that annoyed me to no end, the producers would throw out alot of great stuff(Phantom Zoners, Justice League, etc). As somebody i seen once put it, it was like a pile of crap with alot of gold nuggets it in. I would have to say I wasn't a big fan of season 7, it was like beating a dead horse with all the Clana(instead this time Lana is the one with secrets)

The only character that got the best character journey in this series is Lex Luthor (even when he was involved in bad sub-plot stories, Rosenbaum managed to make it work by his performance and it would just add to Lex's twisted decent to becoming the main villain of the story .)

I personally didn't find Clexana did Lex's character any favors, but if you can ignore that storyarc yeah it definantly one of the better storylines(it all goes back to using Main charatcers in the Superman mythos to build Lana up)

Lois character journey overall was done well (not all parts mind you). They introduced her as the Army Brat and through the course of the series we saw her grow and develop into the woman she's destined to become . Now they just need to show why she'll become the love of Superman's life . and that she wasn't just second best .

I know I probably sound like a Clois shipper, but I really am not. I could care less if the show ever explores romantic Clois. Main main reason for liking Lois as I said above is whenever Clark is featured in episodes with her, he isn't a whiney idiot. I can be perfectly happy watching episodes like Prey(which I thought was a great episode) that don't feature Lois as long as Clark is put in a positive light.

As for Lois herself I really enjoy her character on the show but I do find alot her storylines are lacking(probably alot to do with the fact she only on 13 episodes a season). It seems the producers/writers at times don't care enough to do little things that could make her story more consistent.

Would it have been hard showing an article or 2 of hers last season, there was a perfect opportunity in Descent to give her and Jimmy an article and it would have taken a grand total of 2 seconds with Jimmy holding up a paper saying we were published in the scene they had together, the Lex Expose seems to be swept under the rug making her Season 7 arc rather pointless. It's not even hard to retcon stuff like that, Lois is know for being vain in all media just have her and Clark walk into her apartment and she has a wall full of front page headlines(have 9-10 headlines framed on her wall to say hey look she is actually getting stories published)
 
To the producer's credit, they have done a great job of dishing out enough morsels to keep all fan groups watching - even the loonies at TWoP - and that is quite an achievement.

Speaking of, its finally happened

2nappbp.jpg


maybe it was for the better. :o
 
I loved the episode, and it's currently my favorite episode of the series. I thought Mack was brilliant as Brainiac, although she's no James Marsters, she proved to be quite the substitute. Calum Worthy (Lightning Lad) was freakin' hilarious, BTW.
 
"Legion" is definately the best episode of the season so far and one of the best episodes ever!

Things I loved:

-Clark, very strong and Supermanly! (Loved how he stood up to the Legion, taught them about the value of life and how he lead them to save Chloe.)

-The Persuader (despite his breif appearence, he looked amazing and the atomic axe was great!)

-The Legion (I thought all 3 actors played their parts well and felt like the actual comic book characters!)

-Chloiac (Allison Mack was brilliant, I don't care what anyone says!)

-Davis/Doomsday (Sam was wonderful as usual and Doomsday breaking free at the end...:wow:)

-The special effects (for a series with a low budget, they sure looked beyond stunning in this episode!)

-The Superman/comic book references

-The Legion giving Clark one of their rings (classic moment!)

-Lana (If many would look past the worship or Lana supposedly making Clark look bad, Kristin Kreuk did a great job here.)

Things I didn't like

-Chloe getting her memory back (just seemed random how she got it back and I hope she finds out what Clark did to her.)

I still don't understand how anyone could have hated this episode? It's Smallville at it's best!
 
Speaking of, its finally happened

2nappbp.jpg


maybe it was for the better. :o

Lol, I love the word Chloisy. Chloe can take a crap and somebody there would find it "Chloisy" like it somehow makes there theory legit. The amount of stuff they label as "Chloisy" that have nothing to do with Lois and Clark in other media is hilarious.
 
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I'm so glad Chloe got her memory back, Clark should've never taken it away from her, but it's nice to see her back in the front seat as Clark's sidekick.

I agree, it's hard to hate this episode when there's so many good things about it!
 
i just got around to watching this episode, i was out of town, really loved it. i didnt know much about legion of superheroes and was kinda nervous of what they would mean on the show but i really liked all the easter eggs in the episode. also, allison mack really did a great braniac, very well done.
 
Is it just me or did it seem like Allura really liked Clark?

allura? Kara's mother?
Do you mean Imra/Saturn Girl?
I actually wish they'd played up that attraction more. In the silver age sueprgirl tries to set superman up with Imra and he really likes the idea. In Johns's Legion of super-heroes, when they first meet, Clark thinks 'does she have a boyfriend' and she gets all shy and says no.
 
I got the names mixed up for a minute, but I did mean Imra. I would totally like to see that attraction played up more. It's nice to see Clark possibly think of dating others than Lana or Lois.
 
Thanks, although Bryan Miller's status as a freelancer is up to some speculation...

I thought the Smallville Mag interview with Glen Winter had said he was a freelancer, but someone PM'd me over on K-site saying he also wrote Hex and they thought he was now on staff.

*shrug*
 
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