The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[Frodo]

While I think there are some interesting concepts and ideas in TLJ, like a Luke who's lost his faith essentially, a Rey who's torn between the darkside and the light, the idea of other potential force users, and even the much hated Holdo vs Poe dynamics, as a whole, the film just doesn't follow through with those ideas and that potential in as strong or satisfactory a way as I would have liked.

So overall, while TLJ has some interesting potential, it suffers from a lack of follow through, and alot of filler and less interesting storylines which bog it down for me.

At the same time, it suffers the problems of the other ST films in trying to mirror scenes and situations of the OT but with a new spin, as opposed to coming up with a truly fresh story imo.

I just watched Knives Out and that's brilliant.

So for me , TLJ is a midrange B.

It's certainly better overall film than TROS, though I think TROS is a better Star Wars film in general.

 

[Sian]

JJ and Terrio were so busy retconning TLJ they forgot to tell a story.

I actually found the film depressing. The messages you ultimately got were:
Death is the only form of redemption
An abused child is replaced by a perfect unsullied child, and his own flesh and blood promptly forget him.
You can die for someone and they can't even be bothered to tell anyone that you did
The bad guy returns - and achieves his aim of erasing the heroes' bloodline. Then replaces it with his own and everyone walks about with insane grins on their faces at how wonderful it is!
The entire saga.....was a waste of time.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

More on George Lucas's sequel trilogy ideas out in new book::George Lucas Appreciation Thread

 

[fan4stic]

JJ and Terrio were so busy retconning TLJ they forgot to tell a story.

I actually found the film depressing. The messages you ultimately got were:
Death is the only form of redemption
An abused child is replaced by a perfect unsullied child, and his own flesh and blood promptly forget him.
You can die for someone and they can't even be bothered to tell anyone that you did
The bad guy returns - and achieves his aim of erasing the heroes' bloodline. Then replaces it with his own and everyone walks about with insane grins on their faces at how wonderful it is!
The entire saga.....was a waste of time.

I can't say I'm particularly saddened about Kylo's loss.
Where is it that a child whose parents were killed, who was sold as a child, raised in slavery, and tried to give up in TROS, perfect unsullied? Kylo being abused as a child isn't said or shown in the movies. His flesh and blood were dead. All of them as a result of something he did.
Vader died protecting Luke. Luke didn't tell anyone what he did in ROTJ.
Palpatine didn't wipe out the bloodline. Kylo's actions all resulted in their deaths. He killed Han. Luke died distracting him from going after Leia and the others. Leia died trying to reach Kylo. I prefer the person who didn't do things that got them all killed, which is Rey.
I think we'd reached the waste of time aspect before TROS.

 

[Sian]

Rey did a lot of things which would have been against the Jedi code, yet was given a free pass. The film never once showed her doing anything that would mar her as saintly heroine. She killed Chewie - um no, he was on another ship. She stabbed unarmed Kylo - but it's cool as now she has magical healing powers. She did what not even Yoda could do - killed Palpatine all by her onesie. She never had to struggle to achieve anything, unlike Luke or Anakin. She was a stunningly overpowered character with so many amazing new abilities it was embarrassing.

Kylo was groomed psychologically by a character who was described by the actor who played him as a predator. This 'grooming' was what ultimately led him to killing his own father. He was a mentally wrecked abuse victim.
You can like or hate him as a character but fact remains he was the last of the line. And he died saving Rey, who in turn was severely wounded by killing Palpatine. So Palpatine achieved his aim, his actions caused the end of the last Skywalker. Luke chose to sacrifice himself as atonement for failing his nephew. As for Leia....as TROS showed her to much prefer Palpatine's descendant to her own child I'm pretty sure her aim in contacting Ben was to save pretty lil' Rey rather than Ben. In fact her actions almost killed him, as it distracted him long enough for Rey to stab him with his own lightsabre (nice Jedi Rey, stabbing someone unarmed.)

And Luke must have told everyone what Vader did as Rey pointed out in TLJ that he was 'the most hated man in the galaxy yet you saved him.'

I liked Rey very much in TFA and TLJ, but it wasn't until TROS that I realised her function. The entire trilogy was simply DLF's attempt to erase all of Lucas's legacy characters and replace them with the Great Rey. And that's what they did. The last Skywalker was corrupted into the film's villain while the hero was a new character created by them. In short they wanted us to see that they knew better than Lucas, the saga's original creator. And I suspect it backfired on them.

 

[henzINNIT]

Norman Bates was also a victim of abuse, but is still regarded as a serial killer. Kylo spends over 2/3s of this trilogy killing people or ordering others to kill people. Overall, he was treated very nicely by TROS considering the set up.

The Skywalker bloodline gets far too much attention in my opinion. I really don't care if Skywalker's DNA is passed down or not. The legacy, the history, the story, that can all be channeled through Rey just fine as an adopted member. A Skywalker in name only is enough when the name is its power. She took the name to honour it, with the blessing of the family. I found the execution thoroughly underwhelming myself but as an idea it's hardly erasing or replacing the family legacy.

 

[Bobber]

I liked Rey very much in TFA and TLJ, but it wasn't until TROS that I realised her function. The entire trilogy was simply DLF's attempt to erase all of Lucas's legacy characters and replace them with the Great Rey. And that's what they did. The last Skywalker was corrupted into the film's villain while the hero was a new character created by them. In short they wanted us to see that they knew better than Lucas, the saga's original creator. And I suspect it backfired on them.

I really don't think their intentions were anywhere near this nefarious.
I think they wanted to cash in on some nostalgia and try to make good films while they were at it. However, they noticed that Star Wars fans get furious when you try to make something different, so they panicked and turned their final entry into harmless fan service (that somehow still managed to piss everyone off).

 

[fan4stic]

Rey did a lot of things which would have been against the Jedi code, yet was given a free pass. The film never once showed her doing anything that would mar her as saintly heroine. She killed Chewie - um no, he was on another ship. She stabbed unarmed Kylo - but it's cool as now she has magical healing powers. She did what not even Yoda could do - killed Palpatine all by her onesie. She never had to struggle to achieve anything, unlike Luke or Anakin. She was a stunningly overpowered character with so many amazing new abilities it was embarrassing.

Obi-Wan fell for Satine, and isn't given any flack for that, as far as I know. Does Rey know the jedi code? And does anyone in the movies care to really talk about the jedi code?

She tried to give up.

All Rey did was hold up 2 lightsabers and reflected Palpatine's lightning back at him. Call it a stupid plot point if you want, but I don't see her exerting anything particularly special in her personal abilities.

Kylo was groomed psychologically by a character who was described by the actor who played him as a predator. This 'grooming' was what ultimately led him to killing his own father. He was a mentally wrecked abuse victim.

That's not said or shown in the movies.

You can like or hate him as a character but fact remains he was the last of the line. And he died saving Rey, who in turn was severely wounded by killing Palpatine. So Palpatine achieved his aim, his actions caused the end of the last Skywalker. Luke chose to sacrifice himself as atonement for failing his nephew. As for Leia....as TROS showed her to much prefer Palpatine's descendant to her own child I'm pretty sure her aim in contacting Ben was to save pretty lil' Rey rather than Ben. In fact her actions almost killed him, as it distracted him long enough for Rey to stab him with his own lightsabre (nice Jedi Rey, stabbing someone unarmed.)

Why should I care if he was the last of his line, if I don't like him? His actions led to the rest of his line dying.

And Luke must have told everyone what Vader did as Rey pointed out in TLJ that he was 'the most hated man in the galaxy yet you saved him.'

That's only information that was given in the ST. Not in the trilogy it happened in. Why expect Rey to do something in the same trilogy it happened in, when Luke didn't do it in the trilogy he did it in?

I liked Rey very much in TFA and TLJ, but it wasn't until TROS that I realised her function. The entire trilogy was simply DLF's attempt to erase all of Lucas's legacy characters and replace them with the Great Rey. And that's what they did. The last Skywalker was corrupted into the film's villain while the hero was a new character created by them. In short they wanted us to see that they knew better than Lucas, the saga's original creator. And I suspect it backfired on them.

I don't think the last Skywalker in Kylo had much going on. Rey being there instead doesn't offend me much. If they wanted to avoid this, Rey could've been written to be the last bloodline Skywalker. I would have preferred that.

I think they wanted to cash in on some nostalgia and try to make good films while they were at it. However, they noticed that Star Wars fans get furious when you try to make something different, so they panicked and turned their final entry into harmless fan service (that somehow still managed to piss everyone off).

I don't think they were doing that much different before TROS.

 

[Sian]

Norman Bates was also a victim of abuse, but is still regarded as a serial killer. Kylo spends over 2/3s of this trilogy killing people or ordering others to kill people. Overall, he was treated very nicely by TROS considering the set up.

The Skywalker bloodline gets far too much attention in my opinion. I really don't care if Skywalker's DNA is passed down or not. The legacy, the history, the story, that can all be channeled through Rey just fine as an adopted member. A Skywalker in name only is enough when the name is its power. She took the name to honour it, with the blessing of the family. I found the execution thoroughly underwhelming myself but as an idea it's hardly erasing or replacing the family legacy.

There's a big difference between a serial killer and Kylo Ren!

Ren is - or was - a soldier in a war. In war, people get killed on both sides. We see the Resistance as 'noble freedom fighters'. Ren saw them as terrorists. I didn't agree with his beliefs, but then again I didn't agree with the way Poe happily sacrificed so many of his colleagues in order to destroy one ship. The whole point is in war people die and in war, both sides firmly believe themselves to be in the right. Ren had nothing to do with the destruction of the Hosnian system, that was all Snoke. In real life, the Allies did some terrible things to win at all costs. The destruction of Hosnia reminded me very much of the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But, to quote Captain America, it was done so people could be free. From Ren's point of view the Resistance were 'murderers, traitors and thieves.' I'm not saying he was right, but that he believed himself to be right. As aJedi Rey is supposed to value life. Yet TLJ showed her enjoying killing TIE pilots. No mention of the fact that her best friend was a former stormtrooper and she knew very well that the men and women she was killing were abducted brainwashed children.

As for the Skywalker family being replaceable.......George Lucas always meant it to be a family saga. In fact he stated that Star Wars was always meant to be Anakin's story. Anakin's greatest moment was killing Palpatine to save his son. And....what was the purpose? Palpatine returned, and thanks to him Anakin's son, daughter and grandson are all dead. The Skywalkers are no more. Rey is NOT and never will be, a Skywalker. She was born a Palpatine. She will die a Palpatine. Why oh why they chose to make her his blood relative is beyond me. And at least for me, Star Wars will never be the same. I don't think I will ever be able to watch anything to do with this franchise again. The heart and soul of it is gone.

 

[henzINNIT]

There's a big difference between a serial killer and Kylo Ren!

Ren is - or was - a soldier in a war. In war, people get killed on both sides. We see the Resistance as 'noble freedom fighters'. Ren saw them as terrorists. I didn't agree with his beliefs, but then again I didn't agree with the way Poe happily sacrificed so many of his colleagues in order to destroy one ship. The whole point is in war people die and in war, both sides firmly believe themselves to be in the right. Ren had nothing to do with the destruction of the Hosnian system, that was all Snoke. In real life, the Allies did some terrible things to win at all costs. The destruction of Hosnia reminded me very much of the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But, to quote Captain America, it was done so people could be free. From Ren's point of view the Resistance were 'murderers, traitors and thieves.' I'm not saying he was right, but that he believed himself to be right. As aJedi Rey is supposed to value life. Yet TLJ showed her enjoying killing TIE pilots. No mention of the fact that her best friend was a former stormtrooper and she knew very well that the men and women she was killing were abducted brainwashed children.

Kylo wasn't a 'soldier in a war'. He was a troubled kid in Jedi school first, until he destroyed it. He then became the #2 guy in a fascist organization that uses kidnapped, brainwashed soldiers to destroy the democratic republic with extreme violence. He personally killed innocent, unarmed and defenseless people like Max Von Siddow.

'Ren saw them as terrorists'. So what? He was wrong. His group were obviously the aggressors here. A lot of bad people have done a lot of bad things because they saw x as something sinister. That's often how horrible things are done to people. The Resistance are never shown to be anything but good people trying to stop a hostile takeover. The First Order on the other hand were clearly evil.

Rey was specifically talking about the Falcon's gunner seat when she said she 'liked this' in TLJ, and she didn't shed a tear for the pilots she killed because they were currently trying to wipe out her friends for the crimes of not submitting to immediate execution.

As for the Skywalker family being replaceable.......George Lucas always meant it to be a family saga. In fact he stated that Star Wars was always meant to be Anakin's story. Anakin's greatest moment was killing Palpatine to save his son. And....what was the purpose? Palpatine returned, and thanks to him Anakin's son, daughter and grandson are all dead. The Skywalkers are no more. Rey is NOT and never will be, a Skywalker. She was born a Palpatine. She will die a Palpatine. Why oh why they chose to make her his blood relative is beyond me. And at least for me, Star Wars will never be the same. I don't think I will ever be able to watch anything to do with this franchise again. The heart and soul of it is gone.

I didn't say the Skywalker family were replaceable. Quite the opposite. I said bloodlines are BS. The Skywalker genes are unimportant, the Skywalker family continues and it does so through Rey.

Anakin is as much a product of Palpatine as Rey is tbh. It's kind of fitting.

 

[Sian]

Rey fan, eh?

 

[henzINNIT]

Ah yes. I knew this felt familiar. We had a similar debate before, but you called me a Kylo hater last time. I guess the two are interchangeable really. As I said then, I liked both characters... But liking a fictional character doesn't mean defending their actions, nor does it require tearing down another character to make them look better by comparison.

 

[Sian]

I also liked Rey very much, but although I'm a huge TLJ fan, her character started to lose her appeal, for me at least, post the scene where she and Kylo had their 'tug of war' over Anakin's lightsabre.
I remember Adam Driver saying Kylo genuinely believed himself to be in the right, that the villagers he executed on Jakku were the equivalent of the IRA or Taliban insurgents - notice how despite being a supposedly peaceful village they all produced guns, with the exception of Lor San. TFA, although entertaining and fun, did borrow a bit too heavily from ANH, but TLJ, despite the terrible flak it gained, did try something different.
I don't know if anyone here has read the DC comic based on the computer game Injustice? The most powerful thing about that is it's very hard to pick a side. Both sides are both right and wrong. In Rogue One they stressed how Saw Guerrera was kicked out of the Rebellion because his methods were too extreme. Cassian Andor is shown killing an innocent man to stop him falling into enemy hands. TLJ actually tried something like that. Poe got most of his squad slaughtered and didn't even seem sorry - the end justified the means. The Resistance bought their weapons from the same suppliers as the FO. They didn't go as far as Injustice or Rogue One....but how I wished they had. It would have been a far more fascinating trilogy if they had.
I'd also like to point out that what made Kylo such an interesting character was that unlike Vader or Hux he had a conscience. In fact, it showed at the very beginning when he ordered the villagers killed. He knew what Finn was going through because he felt it himself. This was why he spared his life - he decided to give him a second chance because he shared his disquiet and thought Finn would eventually quash it, as he constantly struggled to do, because his vile 'mentor' had taught him compassion was weakness.
And it's interesting that you mentioned Lor San, because what he said at the beginning actually goes completely against the message Abrams and Terrio were pushing at the very end of TROS.

"You cannot deny the truth that is your family."

 

[fan4stic]

I also liked Rey very much, but although I'm a huge TLJ fan, her character started to lose her appeal, for me at least, post the scene where she and Kylo had their 'tug of war' over Anakin's lightsabre.
I remember Adam Driver saying Kylo genuinely believed himself to be in the right, that the villagers he executed on Jakku were the equivalent of the IRA or Taliban insurgents - notice how despite being a supposedly peaceful village they all produced guns, with the exception of Lor San. TFA, although entertaining and fun, did borrow a bit too heavily from ANH, but TLJ, despite the terrible flak it gained, did try something different.

That makes Kylo stupid.

How did TLJ do something any more different than TFA?

I don't know if anyone here has read the DC comic based on the computer game Injustice? The most powerful thing about that is it's very hard to pick a side. Both sides are both right and wrong. In Rogue One they stressed how Saw Guerrera was kicked out of the Rebellion because his methods were too extreme. Cassian Andor is shown killing an innocent man to stop him falling into enemy hands. TLJ actually tried something like that. Poe got most of his squad slaughtered and didn't even seem sorry - the end justified the means. The Resistance bought their weapons from the same suppliers as the FO. They didn't go as far as Injustice or Rogue One....but how I wished they had. It would have been a far more fascinating trilogy if they had.

How is that gravely different, in comparison to some things TFA does?

I'd also like to point out that what made Kylo such an interesting character was that unlike Vader or Hux he had a conscience. In fact, it showed at the very beginning when he ordered the villagers killed. He knew what Finn was going through because he felt it himself. This was why he spared his life - he decided to give him a second chance because he shared his disquiet and thought Finn would eventually quash it, as he constantly struggled to do, because his vile 'mentor' had taught him compassion was weakness.
And it's interesting that you mentioned Lor San, because what he said at the beginning actually goes completely against the message Abrams and Terrio were pushing at the very end of TROS.

"You cannot deny the truth that is your family."

He ordered the killing of a village and killed an old man in cold blood, twice. If he had a conscience, I see nothing to say it had anymore of an effect on him than Vader's.

Nothing in the movies shows or says that Kylo had a particular connection to Finn in the sense that he cared if he lived or died.

Aren't bloodlines supposed to not matter?

Rey fan, eh?

Maybe they, like me, dislike Kylo to the point where the alternative of Rey is appealing. Not just because she's Rey, but because she's not Kylo.

 

[PO3]

Rey Skywalker is fine. I have two gay friends who adopted a young woman in late teens / twenties. For them the story was incredibly powerful, knowingly fully well growing up they would never a wife or children. All this fake papwalker rubbish is just designed on hate. Okay some people don't like it for some it's a wonderful beacon of hope. Me personally with Rey it may have been better to go a different route. However, am not going to fish pout and throw the toys out of the pram.

Kylo blood or no blood was a killer who wobbles his lips a lot. For some they think it's great acting, to me that felt like a comedy show. Besides in TROS he does nothing but forgive himself in the actual film he's irrelevant. TLJ he was a spoiled brat who gets a free pass because of his surname. The only time I liked him was TFA
A cold blooded killer. Once a killer always a killer. Slaughtering a village and an old man. Blowing up star systems. I ain't going to feel sorry for him. The ones who I feel for in this story is the kidnapped boy who was brainwashed and forced to become a soldier against his will. And the little girl who's parents were butchered and forced into slavery. Left to live off rations and water. Both who became good and fought for the greater cause. Skywalker or no Skywalker, the blood line is irrelevant. For the Skywalker name to live on I would take the slave girl over the entitled man brat any day of the week.

 

[henzINNIT]

Rey Skywalker is fine. I have two gay friends who adopted a young woman in late teens / twenties. For them the story was incredibly powerful, knowingly fully well growing up they would never a wife or children. All this fake papwalker rubbish is just designed on hate. Okay some people don't like it for some it's a wonderful beacon of hope. Me personally with Rey it may have been better to go a different route. However, am not going to fish pout and throw the toys out of the pram.

I agree. I believe this is something easy to fixate on when criticizing the film, but surely everyone knows someone who inherited a family name, with adoption and merging families and what-not. The same thing basically happens in marriages. I have all sorts of problems with the execution, from set-up to the strangely staged pay-off; but the idea of Rey essentially being given a family identity after growing up without one is a fine conclusion for that character.

 

[BatLobster]

I agree. I believe this is something easy to fixate on when criticizing the film, but surely everyone knows someone who inherited a family name, with adoption and merging families and what-not. The same thing basically happens in marriages. I have all sorts of problems with the execution, from set-up to the strangely staged pay-off; but the idea of Rey essentially being given a family identity after growing up without one is a fine conclusion for that character.

My only wish is that people could be this reasonable and fair when criticizing the film.

It's clear that some people internalize what Star Wars means to them in such an intense and personal way that they react very poorly when it doesn't line up with what they have in their heads.

It's the blessing and curse of Star Wars. On one hand, it's a shame that we can't just relax a bit and enjoy our space wizards-- one the other, it's a beautiful thing that this story resonates with people on that deep of a level.

 

[antsman41]

I really need to unsubscribe from this thread... it keeps bringing up bad memories, when Mandalorian is doing a great job in letting me forget all about Rey / TROS / JJ.

 

[Donner]

My only wish is that people could be this reasonable and fair when criticizing the film.

It's clear that some people internalize what Star Wars means to them in such an intense and personal way that they react very poorly when it doesn't line up with what they have in their heads.

It's the blessing and curse of Star Wars. On one hand, it's a shame that we can't just relax a bit and enjoy our space wizards-- one the other, it's a beautiful thing that this story resonates with people on that deep of a level.

It's beautiful when people don't get chewed up for it. Some may identify with Rey or Finn, great. But the ones who identify with Ben Solo are called hideous things. And even the people who ship characters for fun are called abuser apologists.

It's ****ing disgusting when a story or character resonates with someone for a reason that is perfectly their own and they get bashed, made fun of, and insulted for it.

 

[Sian]

Rey Skywalker is fine. I have two gay friends who adopted a young woman in late teens / twenties. For them the story was incredibly powerful, knowingly fully well growing up they would never a wife or children. All this fake papwalker rubbish is just designed on hate. Okay some people don't like it for some it's a wonderful beacon of hope. Me personally with Rey it may have been better to go a different route. However, am not going to fish pout and throw the toys out of the pram.

Kylo blood or no blood was a killer who wobbles his lips a lot. For some they think it's great acting, to me that felt like a comedy show. Besides in TROS he does nothing but forgive himself in the actual film he's irrelevant. TLJ he was a spoiled brat who gets a free pass because of his surname. The only time I liked him was TFA
A cold blooded killer. Once a killer always a killer. Slaughtering a village and an old man. Blowing up star systems. I ain't going to feel sorry for him. The ones who I feel for in this story is the kidnapped boy who was brainwashed and forced to become a soldier against his will. And the little girl who's parents were butchered and forced into slavery. Left to live off rations and water. Both who became good and fought for the greater cause. Skywalker or no Skywalker, the blood line is irrelevant. For the Skywalker name to live on I would take the slave girl over the entitled man brat any day of the week.

Okay, you are entitled to dislike a film and character but it isn't fair to also diss the actor playing him.

 

[PO3]

Okay, you are entitled to dislike a film and character but it isn't fair to also diss the actor playing him.

Listen if Darth Quiver lips description upsets you all I can say, it's in the film because it's required from direction. Adam is is portraying what he's told to portray. I have no problem with Adam Driver. I do have a problem with his fanbase that's not Adam. I do have a problem with Kylo as a character. Again not on Adam. Do I think there better actors around? Yep 100% but that is not me dissing him.

 

[Sian]

It's beautiful when people don't get chewed up for it. Some may identify with Rey or Finn, great. But the ones who identify with Ben Solo are called hideous things. And even the people who ship characters for fun are called abuser apologists.

It's ****ing disgusting when a story or character resonates with someone for a reason that is perfectly their own and they get bashed, made fun of, and insulted for it.

There's another forum whose name I can't mention, but the comments there were so bad I signed out.

 

[Donner]

Listen if Darth Quiver lips description upsets you all I can say, it's in the film because it's required from direction. Adam is is portraying what he's told to portray. I have no problem with Adam Driver. I do have a problem with his fanbase that's not Adam. I do have a problem with Kylo as a character. Again not on Adam. Do I think there better actors around? Yep 100% but that is not me dissing him.

His fanbase is fine.

 

[Donner]

There's another forum whose name I can't mention, but the comments there were so bad I signed out.

Even this one had its share of guys making comments about how Reylo shippers must get off on abuse. That was on such a disgusting level that I'm still upset it wasn't handled better. I think any member who says that sort of thing about anyone who likes a certain relationship, regardless of who it is, should get banned from that specific thread.

 

[PO3]

His fanbase is fine.

There are some crazy ones. How about wanting to break Daisy's fingers because she got married to Tom Bateman. They also wanted her so called unborn baby (which we don't know if she was / is pregnant) to die? Saying her husband is using her for her status and saying he's secretly gay?

I really don't think that is fine? Do you? Maybe one person, maybe multiple I don't know. But it sure is weird. I have screen caps but if I post them, I'd probably be banned because it's truly horrific.