Amazon's Rings of Power - General Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

[Iceman]

This. I thought she was great. I like the arc they are building for her and you can see in the scenes with Adar and Sauron that she realizes some of the errors she’s made in being so brash and relentless. Looking forward to seeing what happens with her now that she knows who their enemy is.

Oh also I forgot how much I liked Adar this season too. Hope he gets more of a presence in LotR media like RTS games going forward as a hero character.

That scene between Galadriel and Adar was one of my favourites.

 

[Silvermoth]

Quite simply the best season finale of the year. An absolute delight from start to finish. Loved every second and I can’t wait for more

 

[Silvermoth]

I knew the stranger would turn out to be Gandalf and not Sauron. At one point I saw his cloak and was like “oh! Gandalf!” Which is why the initial “reveal” shocked me. But the real twist I didn’t see coming which was perfect.

it also really suits that theme of fascism. People think fascists turn up in a great big black cloak dripping blood everywhere but they turn up looking normal and sounding normal until they reveal themselves and then you realise how much trouble you’re in. Absolutely perfect stuff from the writers

 

[henzINNIT]

So the cultists are pretty much irrelevant themselves now. Thought they would have something more about them.

There's every chance they belonged to a faction that we'll see more of in future, but yeah apparently they're dead and gone now. A whole lot of not a lot.

Oh also I forgot how much I liked Adar this season too. Hope he gets more of a presence in LotR media like RTS games going forward as a hero character.

That scene between Galadriel and Adar was one of my favourites.

I'm in two minds about Adar. Thought he was a solid choice for a first season villain and had some good scenes for sure. He was cast aside for the last couple of episodes though and that seems like a waste. A better structured story could have made more of him, defeating him would have made for a more satisfying conclusion too. As things are, I'll be glad to see Adar return but unsure what place he'll have now Sauron is around to steal his thunder.

 

[Filmfan93]

The last 5 mins of this season were some of the best TV I've ever seen. Unfortunately, the 8 hours preceeding them weren't.

The reveals were nothing unexpected, the whole pace of the show dragged to a snail's pace, almost making it borderline unwatchable.

Going through the Harfoot storyline was insufferable. I've never been so bored watching something before and I've seen some really crap things.

And teasing Sauron in his armor, just to have him be "generic pretty looking male lead no. 372" was the most boring thing they could've done.

Everything else was good through, especially the phenomenal production design.

6/10. They better step up the story next season. Having a show called Rings of Power and actually forging them at the last mins of the first season is pure bait and not a good approach.

 

[Persona]

Strikes me as super weird that after cutting between so many threads in most episodes, the finale didn't touch on a number of major characters. Could be two whole years waiting with Isil stuck under some wood lol



I'd argue that in Halbrand's case, it was worse than 'nothing gained' and was actually something lost. After a full season, I don't feel like Sauron is any better a villain for this, his methods are weird and convoluted, and now we no longer have that major human character going forward.

I disagree. Instead of the nebulous, pure evil Sauron that most of the audience already knows, the show has leaned into ideas of Sauron in the 2nd Age that Tolkien had about him, where he is trying to reform himself but also reform Middle Earth in the way he sees fit. His desire for control and power means that his repentance is half-baked, and his seemingly lofty goals for Middle Earth are ultimately perverse, even if he doesn't realize them as such. I think it's great that the show is giving us this Sauron, and also blurring the line between what was perhaps genuine on his part and what were his deceptions and manipulations.

It has accomplished this while playing off the arc of its protagonist Galadriel rather elegantly, full of inversion and counterbalance, the finale really finding a great way to thread that needle of Fate and launch those two characters on really interesting trajectories. It wasn't what I had in mind for this story, but it worked better than I would have thought.

And I know many Tolkien nerds wanted more on this, but the show found a way to quickly and neatly fold in his Lord of Gifts, Celebrimbor influencer, Rings of Power involvement in a way that made sense (while simultaneously finding a good use for the kinda wacky mithril storyline). Could I have watched a season's worth of Annatar in Eregion, sure, but I get why in the show's construct they went this route.

Anyways, just my opinion, sorry the show's take didn't work for you. If you had told me it would be like this a couple months ago, I probably would have been like "oh no, sounds awful." But actually watching how the show set it up and played it out, I am with it.

 

[henzINNIT]

I disagree. Instead of the nebulous, pure evil Sauron that most of the audience already knows, the show has leaned into ideas of Sauron in the 2nd Age that Tolkien had about him, where he is trying to reform himself but also reform Middle Earth in the way he sees fit. His desire for control and power means that his repentance is half-baked, and his seemingly lofty goals for Middle Earth are ultimately perverse, even if he doesn't realize them as such. I think it's great that the show is giving us this Sauron, and also blurring the line between what was perhaps genuine on his part and what were his deceptions and manipulations.

It has accomplished this while playing off the arc of its protagonist Galadriel rather elegantly, full of inversion and counterbalance, the finale really finding a great way to thread that needle of Fate and launch those two characters on really interesting trajectories. It wasn't what I had in mind for this story, but it worked better than I would have thought.

And I know many Tolkien nerds wanted more on this, but the show found a way to quickly and neatly fold in his Lord of Gifts, Celebrimbor influencer, Rings of Power involvement in a way that made sense (while simultaneously finding a good use for the kinda wacky mithril storyline). Could I have watched a season's worth of Annatar in Eregion, sure, but I get why in the show's construct they went this route.

Anyways, just my opinion, sorry the show's take didn't work for you. If you had told me it would be like this a couple months ago, I probably would have been like "oh no, sounds awful." But actually watching how the show set it up and played it out, I am with it.

A more complex Sauron sounds good on paper, but I don't think it's worked out too well here. I'm not sure what humanity you're supposed to gather from Halbrand's story once you know he's been manipulating things. There's no reasonable way to discern whether any particular thing he ever said was genuine. There's nothing in his journey to suggest he's gone through any changes, grown in any way, or whether he's simply been playing things to his advantage the entire time. There were no stakes for him, no threat, other than being discovered sooner. There is no sense of him struggling to adapt to his situation, or whether this whole thing was a convoluted plan from the get-go.

Perhaps this will become clearer later on. The show-runners have said they intend to flesh out Sauron's activity. Right now though, the reveal didn't bring me that satisfying feeling of things clicking into place. It made me question what I had already seen.

I like Galadriel for the most part. A little jarring at first, but I saw the arc and through episode 7 I think we saw how this path of vengeance had led her somewhere dark, and that she had seen it too. Morfydd Clark has done a good job with her. Sadly, 8 was probably my least favourite episode for Galadriel as well. Not telling anyone that Sauron had been hanging out with them is nuts to me. That's some really forced drama, which combined with the arbitrary rush to forge the rings, just made the ending fall flat to me.

 

[Drizzle]

I thought the finale was good. Overall I thought that the middle of the season was a drag but it started and finished strong enough. I'm nowhere near as all in on this as I was for the LOTR films or other fantasy series like Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon but I'll definitely be back for season two.

 

[Iceman]

There's every chance they belonged to a faction that we'll see more of in future, but yeah apparently they're dead and gone now. A whole lot of not a lot.



I'm in two minds about Adar. Thought he was a solid choice for a first season villain and had some good scenes for sure. He was cast aside for the last couple of episodes though and that seems like a waste. A better structured story could have made more of him, defeating him would have made for a more satisfying conclusion too. As things are, I'll be glad to see Adar return but unsure what place he'll have now Sauron is around to steal his thunder.

I think the way it was left, it would be better to make use of him again. He wasn’t given a particularly big sendoff despite the scene with Galadriel being awesome, and has more to offer IMO. Could be interesting to see if he is legitimately against Sauron as he claimed.

 

[Persona]

A more complex Sauron sounds good on paper, but I don't think it's worked out too well here. I'm not sure what humanity you're supposed to gather from Halbrand's story once you know he's been manipulating things. There's no reasonable way to discern whether any particular thing he ever said was genuine. There's nothing in his journey to suggest he's gone through any changes, grown in any way, or whether he's simply been playing things to his advantage the entire time. There were no stakes for him, no threat, other than being discovered sooner. There is no sense of him struggling to adapt to his situation, or whether this whole thing was a convoluted plan from the get-go.

Perhaps this will become clearer later on. The show-runners have said they intend to flesh out Sauron's activity. Right now though, the reveal didn't bring me that satisfying feeling of things clicking into place. It made me question what I had already seen.

I like Galadriel for the most part. A little jarring at first, but I saw the arc and through episode 7 I think we saw how this path of vengeance had led her somewhere dark, and that she had seen it too. Morfydd Clark has done a good job with her. Sadly, 8 was probably my least favourite episode for Galadriel as well. Not telling anyone that Sauron had been hanging out with them is nuts to me. That's some really forced drama, which combined with the arbitrary rush to forge the rings, just made the ending fall flat to me.

It's not an arbitrary rush, though. Not in what the show has established.

Also loved Galadriel in this episode. She is trying to outsmart Sauron but she is also willing to give up parts of herself to accomplish that. She thinks she can turn Sauron's plan against him, not realizing exactly what he is capable of. We see some of Galadriel's costly foibles that the show has underlined, but we also see how low this season has brought her, and how she has changed and how willing she is now to sacrifice for others.

If you look at a passage from "The Mirror of Galadriel" in the FotR book where Galadriel describes how Sauron always "gropes" to reach into her mind but she has shielded herself and Lothlorien by the power of Nenya, or if you look at the first couple paragraphs "Of the Rings of Power" in the Silmarillion which sets up in essence the same basis and restart arc for Sauron that the show does, or if you look in Unfinished Tales how Tolkien described how--of all the great Elves and Men in Middle Earth in the 2nd Age--Sauron viewed Galadriel as his greatest counterpart and rival... then what the show has done makes a lot of sense. To me, at least.

And I'm excited about what the showrunners and actor are saying about what they are planning to do with Sauron in S2.

 

[Persona]

I think the way it was left, it would be better to make use of him again. He wasn’t given a particularly big sendoff despite the scene with Galadriel being awesome, and has more to offer IMO. Could be interesting to see if he is legitimately against Sauron as he claimed.

Yeah, I for one am greatly looking forward to a Sauron/Adar confrontation.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, I for one am greatly looking forward to a Sauron/Adar confrontation.

Could be part of us seeing the transition from Halbrand to full on Sauron, proving himself to the other legions that he is worthy of leading them.

 

[henzINNIT]

It's not an arbitrary rush, though. Not in what the show has established.

Also loved Galadriel in this episode. She is trying to outsmart Sauron but she is also willing to give up parts of herself to accomplish that. She thinks she can turn Sauron's plan against him, not realizing exactly what he is capable of. We see some of Galadriel's costly foibles that the show has underlined, but we also see how low this season has brought her, and how she has changed and how willing she is now to sacrifice for others.

If you look at a passage from "The Mirror of Galadriel" in the FotR book where Galadriel describes how Sauron always "gropes" to reach into her mind but she has shielded herself and Lothlorien by the power of Nenya, or if you look at the first couple paragraphs "Of the Rings of Power" in the Silmarillion which sets up in essence the same basis and restart arc for Sauron that the show does, or if you look in Unfinished Tales how Tolkien described how--of all the great Elves and Men in Middle Earth in the 2nd Age--Sauron viewed Galadriel as his greatest counterpart and rival... then what the show has done makes a lot of sense. To me, at least.

And I'm excited about what the showrunners and actor are saying about what they are planning to do with Sauron in S2.

True about the 'arbitrary rush' thing. There is an explanation for that. I don't really understand or appreciate it, but it is there.

I don't think Galadriel has been built up to be Sauron's greatest rival. Not well at least. She's been played all season. She didn't just aid Halbrand at every turn, she vouched for him and motivated him to act. It didn't take much manipulation either. The lady met her sworn enemy on a raft and convinced herself of his identity based on an object around his neck; an object Halbrand himself suggested wasn't really his. Galadriel of course uses Numenor's great history section to confirm what the sigil is, but apparently not to verify that the line was ended over 1000 years ago (as we discovered this episode). Once she suspects, she is easily disarmed and left to drown by Sauron who escapes with no issue. And finally, after being saved by Elrond, she chooses not to tell anyone that satan himself was here and involved in the ring forging.

 

[Sithborg]

I do find this passage particularly relevant.

 

[TheVileOne]

True about the 'arbitrary rush' thing. There is an explanation for that. I don't really understand or appreciate it, but it is there.

I don't think Galadriel has been built up to be Sauron's greatest rival. Not well at least. She's been played all season. She didn't just aid Halbrand at every turn, she vouched for him and motivated him to act. It didn't take much manipulation either. The lady met her sworn enemy on a raft and convinced herself of his identity based on an object around his neck; an object Halbrand himself suggested wasn't really his. Galadriel of course uses Numenor's great history section to confirm what the sigil is, but apparently not to verify that the line was ended over 1000 years ago (as we discovered this episode). Once she suspects, she is easily disarmed and left to drown by Sauron who escapes with no issue. And finally, after being saved by Elrond, she chooses not to tell anyone that satan himself was here and involved in the ring forging.

Forced TV writing narrative tropes.

 

[Persona]

Great interview with Vickers diving into his character's motivations:

‘Rings Of Power’s Charlie Vickers On Sauron Reveal & Clues We Missed – Deadline

 

[Persona]

Forced TV writing narrative tropes.

Forced? Nah, this whole season developed these ideas.

And show me a TV show that doesn't use tropes.

 

[Persona]

True about the 'arbitrary rush' thing. There is an explanation for that. I don't really understand or appreciate it, but it is there.

I don't think Galadriel has been built up to be Sauron's greatest rival. Not well at least. She's been played all season. She didn't just aid Halbrand at every turn, she vouched for him and motivated him to act. It didn't take much manipulation either. The lady met her sworn enemy on a raft and convinced herself of his identity based on an object around his neck; an object Halbrand himself suggested wasn't really his. Galadriel of course uses Numenor's great history section to confirm what the sigil is, but apparently not to verify that the line was ended over 1000 years ago (as we discovered this episode). Once she suspects, she is easily disarmed and left to drown by Sauron who escapes with no issue. And finally, after being saved by Elrond, she chooses not to tell anyone that satan himself was here and involved in the ring forging.

Sauron is a master deceiver and, yes, far more powerful than Galadriel. He plays everyone. But Galadriel is the first to see through him.

Sauron himself lays out in what esteem he holds Galadriel. He is playing a game to try to get her under his control. To be his "queen," to bind her light to him and his power to her to help enact the order he envisions for Middle Earth.

Galadriel has no proof that he is Sauron and she was exiled from Middle Earth for chasing after him before. So instead of looking like a lunatic (remember, at this point no one knows that Sauron can take a fair form) she tries a counter move. Instead, she tries to turn the ring forging plan against him. And she is half right. Ultimately, the ring of power is what allows her to protect herself and her people from Sauron in the Third Age, not to mention the other Elven rings. But she does not know what Sauron can do with the One Ring (something he was only able to accomplish by putting the bulk of his spirit and power into it, which will ultimately be his undoing) and we will see what happens with the narrative around the other rings of power.

But right now, I see how the showrunners have thought this through. The recent interviews with them and Vickers have been really great. They are taking ideas from Tolkien about Sauron and the Rings of Power that a lot of people don't think about or forget, as well as passages about Galadriel from Fellowship of the Ring and Unfinished Tales, and have created a very interesting and engaging (for me) dramatic framework for the future of the show.

P.S. Obviously, Numenor's records did not know the line had been broken. Makes sense since Numenor is disconnected from Middle Earth and this isn't the era of Wikipedia, no one has all the facts and different places have different information.

 

[Boom]

I'm thankful that the mithril plot device wasn't quite as literal as I feared. The end result of that story thread was perfectly acceptable, even if it has no precedent in the canon.

Im also thankful that the showrunners had the sense to remove Sauron from the equation as the three rings were being forged. Having him be a part of that would've been a grievous mistake.

 

[henzINNIT]

Sauron is a master deceiver and, yes, far more powerful than Galadriel. He plays everyone. But Galadriel is the first to see through him.

Sauron himself lays out in what esteem he holds Galadriel. He is playing a game to try to get her under his control. To be his "queen," to bind her light to him and his power to her to help enact the order he envisions for Middle Earth.

Galadriel has no proof that he is Sauron and she was exiled from Middle Earth for chasing after him before. So instead of looking like a lunatic (remember, at this point no one knows that Sauron can take a fair form) she tries a counter move. Instead, she tries to turn the ring forging plan against him. And she is half right. Ultimately, the ring of power is what allows her to protect herself and her people from Sauron in the Third Age, not to mention the other Elven rings. But she does not know what Sauron can do with the One Ring (something he was only able to accomplish by putting the bulk of his spirit and power into it, which will ultimately be his undoing) and we will see what happens with the narrative around the other rings of power.

But right now, I see how the showrunners have thought this through. The recent interviews with them and Vickers have been really great. They are taking ideas from Tolkien about Sauron and the Rings of Power that a lot of people don't think about or forget, as well as passages about Galadriel from Fellowship of the Ring and Unfinished Tales, and have created a very interesting and engaging (for me) dramatic framework for the future of the show.

P.S. Obviously, Numenor's records did not know the line had been broken. Makes sense since Numenor is disconnected from Middle Earth and this isn't the era of Wikipedia, no one has all the facts and different places have different information.

Sauron's master manipulation (beyond the chance meetings and interactions) is built around assuming an identity that expired a millennium ago and relying on no-one working it out. This includes the Numenorians and their records, the timeless elves he encountered, and all of the Southlanders who accepted him as their long lost king with no doubt whatsoever. It all seemed plausible until episode 8, where the show needed a smoking gun and threw out this contradiction which makes everyone look stupid.

There's a wide gulf between Numenor's library not being wikipedia and being over 1000 years out of date. I suppose it's possible with the vague timelines, but that is pretty extreme.

 

[Weather Witch]

This is going to be really interesting in week 2, but particularly week 3. In isolation these can't quite be used to compare to HOTD just yet, given the different days on which they air, and the huge discrepancy between the amount of minutes of new content available.

Amazon shows don't tend to be super frontloaded so expect it to be ahead of HOTD by default again next week. After that, is where we can really start to compare at least somewhat.

Overall, I suspect this show will have much more organic growth than HOTD though.

Following up on the above now that we've made it to week 3 and we can properly compare. Some positive takeaways, and some negative ones, but I'll put them in spoiler tags for those of you who aren't as hyped to dive into numbers.

Spoiler

Nielsen Top 10 streaming puts ROP slightly ahead of HOTD when it comes to streaming with 988 million minutes vs 960 for September 12 - 18. We have more than enough data by now to dive in a little bit deeper.

• These numbers don't include HBO proper, so this again indicates overall viewership for HOTD is higher. With the large discrepancy in the budget, that isn't a favorable look.
• However, this also means that delayed viewing for ROP is actually doing pretty well so far. The gap in digital is much smaller than expected from early numbers. Hope they can keep it up!
• Prime shows usually live or die on delayed viewing, so that does put some of the earlier much lower numbers in perspective.
• Now these shows being evenly matched on digital does unfortunately confirm that a smaller percentage of Prime Video subscribers are tuning in so far, with Prime being a much bigger service.
• The million-dollar question is how this will develop over the next few weeks. At least, this once again indicates that the show is performing better than the initial numbers seemed to show, which is good!

 

[Persona]

Re: HenzINNIT

It doesn't make everyone look stupid. Why would anyone think he is not a Southlands man? Again, no one knows that Sauron can even assume a form like this.

Obviously it's not the only form he assumes. Adar didn't even recognize him.

I don't have any problem with Numenor's records being out of date or not comprehensive when it comes to something so far removed from them. Or yes, it's possible there is another record there that Galadriel missed. It's not like you can just do a word search.

Listen, obviously you struggled with accepting some of this stuff and I get why and I am sorry it soured your enjoyment. For me, when I saw everything in the context of the show, I was able to go with it.

I had a bad feeling after episode 7, which was so choppy to me, that the end of the season wasn't going to work for me, especially after I heard some of the leaks. To my elation, it did work for me... really well, in fact. It was my favorite episode of the season after episode 6. And I think that makes a big difference; for me the execution and efficacy was there so that helps how my brain processes these story decisions. But if it doesn't work for you on that gut level, your brain is going to find things lacking. And I'm sorry it didn't work for you, I know you were enjoying it up to a point.

 

[Persona]

Thanks, Weather Witch, very interesting.

I don't understand why they released these shows at the same time. Yes, they are high profile fantasy prequel shows, but they are so fundamentally different in tone and approach and what kind of entertainment they are trying to be, I don't think the constant comparisons and numbers vying did the shows any favors. Obviously, a lot of people think HotD is superior to RoP. I don't think it is as simple as that, but I did enjoy the narrative focus of HotD (despite some awkward story gaps and casting changes due to time jumps) as opposed to RoP's shaky storyline hopping--but for what RoP is trying to do, the scope and variety and widespread detail it is trying to capture, I get why they did it how they did it, especially after the finale. Still, I totally get why people think HotD is "better." Its writing, focused on this pool of characters and their character dynamics more than anything and not striving for a Tolkienian style in dialogue, is almost inevitably going to come off better for much of a modern audience.

I don't think their seasons should overlap again. I think the next season of HotD should be ready well before RoP's. And I think that will be good, enjoying each show for what it is instead of this weird head-to-head that happened.

 

[henzINNIT]

And I'm sorry it didn't work for you, I know you were enjoying it up to a point.

Aye. I was enjoying it quite a bit until the finale. Oh well. A disappointing end makes the wait for the second season much easier, ha. I shall check it out. There's plenty of things to enjoy despite my gripes.

 

[misjuevos]

Thanks, Weather Witch, very interesting.

I don't understand why they released these shows at the same time.

Two different companies competing for our views of their content. So competition between companies I don't mind, let them worry about views and such. We get more content the more they try to out do each other..