Cyberpunk 2077

[Sithborg]

At least CDPR isn't Ubisoft, which needs to be scrubbed from the bottom up of its toxicity.

In other news, ARC Systems Works decides to be a little trolly.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So apparently some retailers already received their stock of this game. So anything CDPR do at this point would have to be a day one patch.

Everything they have been working on since the game went gold is a day one patch. It's going to massive.

 

[OutOfBoose]

You have changed your argument on this at least 3 times, all in defense of inhuman treatment of human beings. Let's not forget that you are sitting here arguing that crunch is necessary after acting like it wasn't happening because they said it wasn't.

Crunch is more then avoidable. The issue is simply unrealistic release dates and workforces that are too small to accommodate. Cyberpunk 2077 could come out in it's current condition in a year, without crunch. Why is it a necessity?

Empty accusations won't get you anywhere. You're sitting here with useless pompous self-validating rants and tomorrow you will be supporting "inhuman treatment of human beings" (lmao) with your wallet. The only time I changed my opinion on CDPR is how much crunch is in the studio (after more info was revealed). When did I act like crunch wasn't happening? I said it wasn't that bad because people were forced to work a compensated extra day for 1,5 months before the release of the game, because it's a frequent thing in game development. Especially on bigger projects. Almost all (if not all, I just can't confirm the info) of my favorite games had hard development and crunch.

Why is it necessary to release it now instead of one year later? Because plans are made. Contracts are signed. Money are spent. Even if there was room for delay, looks like there's no more after it was delayed multiple times. And at the same time it's harder to predict if they can meet the date because it's game development. When everything can go wrong at any time.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Cyberpunk has been in development for 7 years. Doesn't sound fast to me.

The raw number doesn't say anything. It's impossible to evaluate it properly without knowing the scope of the project and how it evolved in the process. Development usually starts at more leisure pace and picks up as it gets closer to the release.

Tech is special because it is largely run by libertarian ****heads who feel the rules don't apply to them.

Crunch is necessary in order to hit determined goals set by shareholders and upper management, whereas the ground level employee bears the damage of crunch, but never sees any of the benefits.

It has been clear for a while, that Western AAA game development is not sustainable.

People complain how the games industry needs better planning, yet when plans aren't met - it's suddenly inhuman treatment.

Also, it's not just Western AAA game development. I read more scary stories about Japanese companies. In Russia it's similar. You might as well say AAA gaming isn't sustainable. And I already heard solutions like "curb your ambition, do smaller games, don't try".

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Empty accusations won't get you anywhere. You're sitting here with useless pompous self-validating rants and tomorrow you will be supporting "inhuman treatment of human beings" (lmao) with your wallet. The only time I changed my opinion on CDPR is how much crunch is in the studio (after more info was revealed). When did I act like crunch wasn't happening? I said it wasn't that bad because people were forced to work a compensated extra day for 1,5 months before the release of the game, because it's a frequent thing in game development. Especially on bigger projects. Almost all (if not all, I just can't confirm the info) of my favorite games had hard development and crunch.

Why is it necessary to release it now instead of one year later? Because plans are made. Contracts are signed. Money are spent. Even if there was room for delay, looks like there's no more after it was delayed multiple times. And at the same time it's harder to predict if they can meet the date because it's game development. When everything can go wrong at any time.

The awful "why do you participate in society if you don't like it" argument is always awful, and is again a very obvious example of bad faith and a lack of willingness to engage in an actual conversation. It is also a clear sign of a lack of argument.

I didn't say you changed your opinion, I said you changed your argument. Your opinion, which is pro crunch, is clear. That you even bought the idea that there was someway to handle crunch humanly is telling and why you had to switch your argument from, "this crunch ain't so bad" to "well crunch has to happen". But hey, I remember a distinct argument about how your home country couldn't be blamed for bigotry, because change takes time, so what I am really to expect?

All such things are only mandated by those involved. No firm date ever has to be given, like there was never a firm date for years. For example:

The raw number doesn't say anything. It's impossible to evaluate it properly without knowing the scope of the project and how it evolved in the process. Development usually starts at more leisure pace and picks up as it gets closer to the release.
People complain how the games industry needs better planning, yet when plans aren't met - it's suddenly inhuman treatment.

Also, it's not just Western AAA game development. I read more scary stories about Japanese companies. In Russia it's similar. You might as well say AAA gaming isn't sustainable. And I already heard solutions like "curb your ambition, do smaller games, don't try".

Any change is on those running the studio. If they didn't bake such delays into the original design time is on them, and thus such decisions extend development time because they decided to extend it. That doesn't mean work everyone else harder, it means delaying the game.

Your take on "planning" is well we made an arbitrary date, so we have to meet it. Don't make the date. What is difficult about that? You talk about horror stories from Japan, which are true. But then you have the Nintendo philosophy. Metroid Prime 4 has disappeared for a reason.

Also your mocking of the practice of crunch is just embarrassing. It's legit torture on those involved, and has clearly been going on for months at the studio. And yet you make light of it. It's gross.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Actually tomorrow I will be voting in a free election, that actually involves multiple labor laws in my state. How about you?

We don't have any voting tomorrow.

I didn't say you changed your opinion, I said you changed your argument. Your opinion, which is pro crunch, is clear. That you even bought the idea that there was someway to handle crunch humanly is telling and why you had to switch your argument from, "this crunch ain't so bad" to "well crunch has to happen". But hey, I remember a distinct argument about how your home country couldn't be blamed for bigotry, because change takes time, so what I am really to expect?

I never had argument "crunch has to happen". I said crunch is frequently unavoidable and there's little anyone can do about it outside breaking deadlines, contracts etc. Unpredictable nature of game dev. is a big part of it. It's not so black and white for me. In some cases people work a month or two before the release. In other companies overworking is permanent condition. What's more severe and what needs to be taken care of first? Because initially we were talking about a specific situation at CDPR.
I'm against crunch, but suggestions like "make smaller games" or "delay it for another year" don't do anyone favors. We simply don't know the whole picture.

All such things are only mandated by those involved. No firm date ever has to be given, like there was never a firm date for years. For example:

This is simply unrealistic. Just because some game had a long development cycle, doesn't mean it didn't have a date. Very few projects can afford themselves infinity development and frequently in these cases nothing is released in the end, because it's stuck in endless "start over from scratch".

Any change is on those running the studio. If they didn't bake such delays into the original design time is on them, and thus such decisions extend development time because they decided to extend it. That doesn't mean work everyone else harder, it means delaying the game.

So easy for armchair managers on message boards. CDPR already extended development time a few times. They have a giant crew working on the game. I think it's approaching 1000 employees.

Your take on "planning" is well we made an arbitrary date, so we have to meet it. Don't make the date. What is difficult about that? You talk about horror stories from Japan, which are true. But then you have the Nintendo philosophy. Metroid Prime 4 has disappeared for a reason.

Are you sure it's an arbitrary date? Or maybe there was specific budget and time window. Maybe even generous time window, considering 7 years of development. As well as various contracts and plans surrounding the project with specific dates? Not sure what Prime 4 has to do with anything. The reason they restarted development is because it just didn't look good. It has nothing to do with crunch.

Also your mocking of the practice of crunch is just embarrassing. It's legit torture on those involved, and has clearly been going on for months at the studio. And yet you make light of it. It's gross.

What's really gross is manipulative appeal to emotions.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am just going to throw this little edit in here, in case you miss it:

The awful "why do you participate in society if you don't like it" argument is always awful, and is again a very obvious example of bad faith and a lack of willingness to engage in an actual conversation. It is also a clear sign of a lack of argument.

We don't have any voting tomorrow.

Considering the country you said you live in, there is no voting in free election to be had.

I never had argument "crunch has to happen". I said crunch is frequently unavoidable and there's little anyone can do about it outside breaking deadlines, contracts etc. Unpredictable nature of game dev. is a big part of it. It's not so black and white for me. In some cases people work a month or two before the release. In other companies overworking is permanent condition. What's more severe and what needs to be taken care of first? Because initially we were talking about a specific situation at CDPR.
I'm against crunch, but suggestions like "make smaller games" or "delay it for another year" don't do anyone favors. We simply don't know the whole picture.

We know why crunch happens. To suggest we don't, means the "reading" you have proclaimed to have done on the subject isn't a real thing.

This is simply unrealistic. Just because some game had a long development cycle, doesn't mean it didn't have a date. Very few projects can afford themselves infinity development and frequently in these cases nothing is released in the end, because it's stuck in endless "start over from scratch".

Afford? No, an executive missing out on a bonus isn't the end of the world. Nintendo delayed Metroid Prime off into the distance because it wasn't ready. It happens, when company's want to make it happen.

So easy for armchair managers on message boards. CDPR already extended development time a few times. They have a giant crew working on the game. I think it's approaching 1000 employees.

And yet clearly not enough workers. But hey, when executives are cutting themselves ridiculous large checks, who can afford more staff?

Are you sure it's an arbitrary date? Or maybe there was specific budget and time window. Maybe even generous time window, considering 7 years of development. As well as various contracts and plans surrounding the project with specific dates? Not sure what Prime 4 has to do with anything. The reason they restarted development is because it just didn't look good. It has nothing to do with crunch.

A specific budget and time window they set themselves. Jesus.

What's really gross is manipulative appeal to emotions.

Yes, because pointing out the suffering of others is inappropriate in a conversation about the suffering of others.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I am just going to throw this little edit in here, in case you miss it:

The awful "why do you participate in society if you don't like it" argument is always awful, and is again a very obvious example of bad faith and a lack of willingness to engage in an actual conversation. It is also a clear sign of a lack of argument.

Why would I have good faith in empty talks? What do your labor laws have to do with games development in Poland? You claim your love for CDPR and at the same time call them monsters who abuse people - how does that co-exist in one head? Put your money where your mouth is or it's just empty talk.

Considering the country you said you live in, there is no voting in free election to be had.

Your level of expertise is showing.

We know why crunch happens. To suggest we don't, means the "reading" you have proclaimed to have done on the subject isn't a real thing.

Crunch happens for myriad of reasons. If your knowledge of crunch is on similar level as your knowledge on voting in Russia, then I suggest you to take a closer look in the mirror and brush up on game development a bit.

Afford? No, an executive missing out on a bonus isn't the end of the world. Nintendo delayed Metroid Prime off into the distance because it wasn't ready. It happens, when company's want to make it happen.

The hell are you talking about? They literally restarted development of the game with a different studio. They didn't do it to avoid crunch. It just didn't meet their quality standards.

And yet clearly not enough workers. But hey, when executives are cutting themselves ridiculous large checks, who can afford more staff?

Are you sure it's not enough? Bloating staff isn't a great solution either, because it makes adapting and managing a lot more difficult. Incorporating more new employees takes time and that's what they don't have.

A specific budget and time window they set themselves. Jesus.

What if they based their decision on something? Available resources, short and long term plans, scope of the project... Silly idea, I know. They just needed to start abstract projects with no plan and hope it turns into something at some point in the distant future like online experts suggest. DUH.

Yes, because pointing out the suffering of others is inappropriate in a conversation about the suffering of others.

Hysteria and hyperbole aren't constructive. Quite opposite. I refuse to engage in that.

 

[Sithborg]

The raw number doesn't say anything. It's impossible to evaluate it properly without knowing the scope of the project and how it evolved in the process. Development usually starts at more leisure pace and picks up as it gets closer to the release.
People complain how the games industry needs better planning, yet when plans aren't met - it's suddenly inhuman treatment.

Also, it's not just Western AAA game development. I read more scary stories about Japanese companies. In Russia it's similar. You might as well say AAA gaming isn't sustainable. And I already heard solutions like "curb your ambition, do smaller games, don't try".

Generally, it is inhuman treatment that is needed to hit the arbitrary deadlines, so, not sure what your point is?

As for crunch with Japanese developers, it is a bit of larger issue, as it really is just an extension of Japanese corporate culture, which needs a bit more than just a union to fix. And even then, most of the Japanese developers are good about delaying a game when it needs to be be delayed.

The fact is, even with a month of "official" crunch, they were still not able to fully meet the certification requirements for going gold. A delay after going gold means the game is an unplayable mess. Crunch or no, it sounds like it should have been pushed to 2021.

 

[B]

I'm sure the game is more polished than Avengers. The game has gone gold and it's in a playable state, gameplay/features and all.

I wonder if it's optimization issues with PS4/XB1. After all, we haven't seen any console footage yet...

Agreed, I'm sure it will be at least based on what they've told us. I'd be incredibly disappointed if it wasn't more polished given the overall length of it's development & multiple delays.

 

[Marvolo]

Former CDPR Employee Reportedly Earned $430 Per Month During Witcher 3 Development

Pathetic.

 

[X Knight]

At this point, I'm inclined to cancel my preorder and just wait until next year when the next-gen patch and/or next-gen version gets released.

I was treating this like a launch title to play on my new PS5 or Series X this November. However, in the back of my mind, I was always a bit unsure about the game since the next-gen patch isn't coming until 2021 and there is no next-gen version of the game being released now (unlike AC Valhalla which does have a separate PS5 version).

If I'm not going to be able to experience the game in its full next-gen glory, then why bother playing it now?

Plus, with all these delays, there may be a reason why it keeps getting delayed. This thing could be a hot buggy mess on release. So, it might make more sense to wait anyways.

 

[Marvolo]

You'll go to the store to buy a copy and some strung out sleep deprived CDPR rep will be at the register grabbing everyone's copies of the game mumbling, " This is the last delay. I promise."

 

[Gee]

Conference call highlights.
HIGHLIGHTS: CD Projekt video games on Cyberpunk 2077 delay

ABOUT THE DELAY: "This situation is different" compared to previous changes to the deadline - the game for PC is ready and plays well on next-gen consoles and the company is finalizing the process concerning current gen consoles.

Seems like the current-gen version failed a condition for the gold certification...

 

[X Knight]

Conference call highlights.
HIGHLIGHTS: CD Projekt video games on Cyberpunk 2077 delay



Seems like the current-gen version failed a condition for the gold certification...

Current gen literally holding next-gen back!

Though, it's curious, if it runs well on next-gen consoles, why aren't the next-gen patches or next-gen versions of the game not being released at launch? Why wait until next year to release the next-gen upgrades?

Maybe with this delay, that will allow them to release the next-gen upgrade patches at launch?

 

[Gee]

Though, it's curious, if it runs well on next-gen consoles, why aren't the next-gen patches or next-gen versions of the game not being released at launch? Why wait until next year to release the next-gen upgrades?

Maybe it's a contractual thing? Playerbase is still huge with current-gen consoles and many won't be jumping to next-gen soon.

Or the next-gen version is being outsourced to Saber Interactive who is working on the next-gen upgrade for The Witcher 3 (they also did the Switch port).

-edit- Huh, didn't know SHH had an auto-correct feature... Kept changing "Saber" into "sabre"...

 

[X Knight]

Maybe it's a contractual thing? Playerbase is still huge with current-gen consoles and many won't be jumping to next-gen soon.

Or the next-gen version is being outsourced to sabre Interactive who is working on the next-gen upgrade for The Witcher 3 (they also did the Switch port).

-edit- Huh, didn't know SHH had an auto-correct feature... Kept changing "sabre" into "sabre"...

Yeah, I guess.

and don't get me started on the saber auto-correct deal......haha.

 

[Snow Queen]

Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Was Kept From Most Of The Team, Studio Says (Update)

Following a question about reports of crunch at the studio, co-CEO Adam Kiciński said, “Regarding crunch; actually, it’s not that bad – and never was.”

"Don't worry, it's not that bad." - man says about things he makes others experience so he can take home a bonus.

 

[Sithborg]

Cyberpunk 2077 Delay Was Kept From Most Of The Team, Studio Says (Update)


"Don't worry, it's not that bad." - man says about things he makes others experience so he can take home a bonus.

Yeah, he got an earful from his employees.

 

[Snow Queen]

Yeah, he got an earful from his employees.

I like this summary underneath it.

 

[TheVileOne]

Game delays used to bother me, but they no longer do. Here is why:

• Games that are rushed are broken, full of bugs or have problems.
• Polish usually comes at the last stage of development.
• This is an incredibly ambitious game. It's far more ambitious than The Witcher 3, which was open world and still had tons of load times and screens. The fact that they might be having problems with it is not surprising. If the devs need more time to fix the problems, they should take it.
• Good games are worth waiting for. I'd rather a developer take the time that is necessary to make a good game than putting an unfinished, unfulfilling product on the shelves: See Fallout 76, Destiny, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem.
• This pandemic sucks. A lot of us right now are suffering. How do you think the devs working crunch are feeling right now in the middle of a neverending pandemic? Chances are, it's not much better for them, or even worse. There are human beings at the other side of his.
• I'm not going to insult fans and call them entitled spoiled brats or neckbeards. But I will say this: there is no excuse for personally attacking, contacting devs, sending them death threats, or bullying them. Anger? Yes. Complaints? Yes. But within reason.
• If you are angry at CDR's handling of this, there's a simple solution here: You don't have to buy the game.
• I'm reminded of when No Man's Sky got delayed for another 8 weeks in 2016. People trashed and insulted Jason Schreier when he reported on the delay. They said it was fake news. Then the fans started threatening the director of the game when the delay turned out to be legit. What kind of messed up situation is that? People actually threatened a guy because the game they wanted to play was pushed back LESS THAN TWO MONTHS. Guess what else? Upon release, No Man's Sky was viewed as a giant disappointment and was soundly thrashed.
• It sounds like Cyberpunk 2077 is having problems and they need more time to fix it and let it marinate. Holidays are coming up. Maybe the devs need more time to relax. Let them take a holiday break and come back raring to go. Let them be with their families and take a break.
• Take off the game's active release date. Release the game when it's ready.
• We aren't living in a normal time anymore. Things aren't going back to normal anytime soon. No matter how much we hate it, we can't force things to go back to normal. We can only control what we can control.

Push the game to 2021 if need be.

 

[Marvolo]

CD Projekt Red's stock fell 25% in two months amid Cyberpunk uncertainty

Negative stories about the production and release of Cyberpunk 2077 coincided with €2.5b decline in market cap

 

[Iceman]

CD Projekt Red's stock fell 25% in two months amid Cyberpunk uncertainty

Negative stories about the production and release of Cyberpunk 2077 coincided with €2.5b decline in market cap

CDPR have 2 main IPs, one of which isn’t released yet, so their stock price is going to be massively more volatile than a larger, mature gaming company. The performance of Cyberpunk could cause huge waves in either direction, but the game being great and selling tonnes is probably baked into the stock price. Even doing well but getting delayed means every dollar on average comes that much later which has its own cost.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Fingers crossed the December 10th release date sticks this time.

 

[Iceman]

Hope so. This was the main next generation game to play at launch for many people.