The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[TheVileOne]

Hey, George Lucas himself said Jedi aren't celibate, they're just not supposed to form distracting attachments.

Except when they routinely do throughout the prequels and Clone Wars, and no one bats an eye or says anything.

 

[Fincher]

It's not nonsense. There was a very real love story between Leia and Han. Women consume content too.

I'm not going to say that there aren't female Star Wars fans and viewers or that Disney's even required to make its Star Wars films for any particular audience (although from a profitability standpoint, which is what motivates them, it makes sense to consider who their audience is). To be fair, though, I think Leia and Han have broader appeal and fewer critics. Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey appeal predominantly to (a subset of) women and have received scorn from men and also from women who don't happen to be into what they're selling and find it problematic. And that's its own thing that detractors can not watch, while it does very well for itself in its own particular niche. When you take that and you put it in something already extremely popular with a mixed audience like Star Wars, but arguably ramp it up by making him not a creep who watches a girl sleep but a mass murderer who killed one of her friends and put another in a coma, you do so risking that you'll alienate the rest of the audience.

There's a balancing act there where every aspect of a movie doesn't need to appeal to everyone watching. I don't know how much exactly Reylo contributed to the backlash, and I don't know how much more they'd have done with Reylo if there hadn't been a backlash. What I can say is that the people who don't like Twilight really don't like Twilight, so you can't just make Twilight in space and expect both Twilight fans and science fiction fans in general to be on board.

 

[godisawesome]

I feel like the hectic schedule and the lack of planning wouldn’t have mattered much of either Abrams or Johnson were paired with a more complimentary director/storyteller - if Abrams’s had been followed by a more “Superhero Movie” type of storyteller interested in “playing it straight” and invested in Rey and Finn above Kylo and interested in exploiting Luke in a conventional manner, the result would likely have been better, just as Johnson following behind someone more interested in a “hipster art student” approach fascinated by Kylo more than Rey and Finn would have likely been better as well.

A lot of the issues are that both Abrams and Johnson produced clashing works - yeah, Boyega as Finn gets sidelined and demoted in a manner that seems endemic of systemic racism by TLJ because TFA treated him with more respect, focus and ambition, but TLJ has to follow up on the kinds of mysteries and conventional set-ups it has no interest in following up on, and had a Kylo Ren basically sabotaged fatally for the role it wanted him in. Rey, as a character kind of caught between the two different styles, basically got hollowed out by the same issue - and thus wound up undermined even at the concept level by the time everything was said and done.

This is half the bloody problem. Twilight, 50 Shades, etc, those films are for an entirely difference audience. Star Wars was never the place for that type of nonsense.

It's not nonsense. There was a very real love story between Leia and Han. Women consume content too.

Romance, period, can appeal to just about everyone, but like all fiction, there’s different levels of how well it can be executed and how deep you have to build it in order for it to appeal.

Men *and* women can dig and enjoy romance, even though both are known to sometimes have areas where shallower writing can appeal to the, without much effort - traditionally, men are seen as more likely to enjoy a physical relationship-focused “fling” type of writing ala James Bond and the Bond girls, while women are traditionally seen as more likely to enjoy “Overwrought” emotionally conflicted love stories... though both can have other members of those genders reject those more shallow formulas as well.

But the truth of the matter is a well written love story will appeal to both, particularly if placed in a film that has other well-written elements as well. And there have been times where the gender stereotypes have reversed; looking at the Arthurian Romances, I’m struck by the fact that a lot of the overwrought and soap-opera looking “courtly love” stories are written by guys, and there’s definetly a trend in some literary circles for more...sensuality-focused “romances” written by women.

Twilight’s bad reputation stems more from a feeling its romance is poorly written than from the simple fact it’s a romance, that it’s extremely shallow and thus has little appeal to people who want more; that’s why criticism of it crosses most demographics.

...And I’d argue that’s the problem of the “Reylo” story in the Sequel Trilogy as well; I’ve joked with my friends that comparing Reylo to Twilight is an insult to Twilight because of how badly I think the ST’s “Reylo” story is written. And like with Twilight, criticism of it crosses all demographics as well, because what’s on screen is a fundamentally shallow story.

BUT!!!...

...I’d actually argue that there’s a good deal of Reylo fans who could do a better job, at least on the conceptual level, than Rian Johnson and Abrams would up doing - basically, if a Reylo fan ever has an explanation for why they’d be attracted to each other, or how they’d get over the issues caused by Kylo being, y’know, a shallow monster with no redeeming characteristics, then they’ve done more work than Rian Johnson did.

...Though if it’s a Reylo who attacked John Boyega, than I just think they’re shallow racists, and I have no respect for their opinion.

By the by, a “proof” I would offer up that a better written and deeper-characterized version of the “Star Crossed Lovers” can work very well in Star Wars would be the Claudia Grey written “Lost Stars” tie-in to TFA - I’ve yet to hear of a single person who’s read it and dislike it, and it might honestly remain the most popular of the New EU stories that’s not a blatant cash-grab with a familiar character.

 

[BatLobster]

As much as I agree 3 year gaps would have been better, I'm grateful we got two films with Carrie Fisher before she passed. There definitely should have been a delay for episode 9, to deal with her death, but also the reaction to TLJ, and losing a director.

Having seen TROS, I shudder to think of an entire trilogy directed by Abrams. That's the last thing I'd want.

That's very true. If Carrie had passed before the second film, this trilogy would've been screwed right there.

As much as it can be fun to Monday morning quarterback it and say "they should've done X, Y and Z", I've accepted it for what it is. Movies aren't produced in a vacuum and there are a lot of complex real world circumstances that came together to create the tricky environment that these films were made in. On a bigger level this was about a bumpy transition period of Star Wars going from being George Lucas' baby to a corporate IP. And I'm also convinced that even the best possible versions of a Star Wars sequel trilogy would've still divided fans and been controversial.

So..it is what it is for me, to a certain extent. These were movies we were never even supposed to get, so on some level I'm just glad I lived to get to see Luke as an old wizard, god-tier Jedi and go out like a legend (yes, the ending of TLJ ruled...sorry not sorry). It made me say "wow" at what the Force could be one more time with my favorite character. That alone was worth something, personally.

 

[Donner]

I like the Reylo story and I think it's pretty pathetic to judge people on the content they consume.

Men can like whatever they want and actually fought censorship so they could consume more content. So, yeah.

 

[jmc]

It's not nonsense. There was a very real love story between Leia and Han. Women consume content too.

The approached between Leia and Han and even Padme and Anakin was entirely different compare to Rey and Kylo. One was a proper love story, the other was written with no consideration as to how bad that relationship actually was. When I say nonsense, I’m talking about love stories written as throw away self insert fantasies. Romance has always played a part in Star Wars. Reylo was never romantic.

 

[Donner]

Well enough people clearly thought it was romantic so...

 

[jmc]

Romance, period, can appeal to just about everyone, but like all fiction, there’s different levels of how well it can be executed and how deep you have to build it in order for it to appeal.

Men *and* women can dig and enjoy romance, even though both are known to sometimes have areas where shallower writing can appeal to the, without much effort - traditionally, men are seen as more likely to enjoy a physical relationship-focused “fling” type of writing ala James Bond and the Bond girls, while women are traditionally seen as more likely to enjoy “Overwrought” emotionally conflicted love stories... though both can have other members of those genders reject those more shallow formulas as well.

But the truth of the matter is a well written love story will appeal to both, particularly if placed in a film that has other well-written elements as well. And there have been times where the gender stereotypes have reversed; looking at the Arthurian Romances, I’m struck by the fact that a lot of the overwrought and soap-opera looking “courtly love” stories are written by guys, and there’s definetly a trend in some literary circles for more...sensuality-focused “romances” written by women.

Twilight’s bad reputation stems more from a feeling its romance is poorly written than from the simple fact it’s a romance, that it’s extremely shallow and thus has little appeal to people who want more; that’s why criticism of it crosses most demographics.

...And I’d argue that’s the problem of the “Reylo” story in the Sequel Trilogy as well; I’ve joked with my friends that comparing Reylo to Twilight is an insult to Twilight because of how badly I think the ST’s “Reylo” story is written. And like with Twilight, criticism of it crosses all demographics as well, because what’s on screen is a fundamentally shallow story.

BUT!!!...

...I’d actually argue that there’s a good deal of Reylo fans who could do a better job, at least on the conceptual level, than Rian Johnson and Abrams would up doing - basically, if a Reylo fan ever has an explanation for why they’d be attracted to each other, or how they’d get over the issues caused by Kylo being, y’know, a shallow monster with no redeeming characteristics, then they’ve done more work than Rian Johnson did.

...Though if it’s a Reylo who attacked John Boyega, than I just think they’re shallow racists, and I have no respect for their opinion.

By the by, a “proof” I would offer up that a better written and deeper-characterized version of the “Star Crossed Lovers” can work very well in Star Wars would be the Claudia Grey written “Lost Stars” tie-in to TFA - I’ve yet to hear of a single person who’s read it and dislike it, and it might honestly remain the most popular of the New EU stories that’s not a blatant cash-grab with a familiar character.

Don’t disagree with any of this. Again, romance is fine, love if fine, but no-one making this trilogy bothered to do it right. Hell, this trilogy almost went out of its way to remove love entirely out of Star Wars. And it comes back to how these creative types are treating their female characters. They were so concerned with making Rey ‘the hero’ they were too afraid to show her having female desires and traits under some misguided idea it would make her look weak. She can’t have love, she can’t have compassion, she has to be able to do everything herself, she’s over powered, she can’t dress in anything feminine, etc. Every decision made with this character came from the perspective that anything feminine or related to women was weak. Meanwhile, Wonder Woman comes out, embraces literally everything about women and what appeals to women, and is loved by everyone.

 

[Fincher]

I like the Reylo story and I think it's pretty pathetic to judge people on the content they consume.

Men can like whatever they want and actually fought censorship so they could consume more content. So, yeah.

I don't think people should be judged for liking Reylo, but then I don't know that anyone here said that they should be. What I'm saying is that there are people who strongly dislike Reylo/Twilight/Fifty Shades of Grey and that for better or worse that affects their feelings on the trilogy. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about Leia and Han, so I just don't think the two are equivalent.

Let me put it another way. Say Rise of Skywalker had a scene where Rey and Finn and Poe decide to go swimming for fun, and Rey wears a bikini. Some people would like it, and some wouldn't like it because it's an excuse to sexualize Rey. Leia in Return of Jedi would get brought up, some would argue that it's okay if Finn and Poe were also shirtless, there'd be back and forth, but regardless of what anyone might feel about it not many would stop watching Star Wars just because of that one scene. If Rey spent half of The Last Jedi in a bikini, though, regardless of the reason given, that would kill some people's enthusiasm for watching the third movie.

Reylo wasn't half of The Last Jedi. However, if you want Steve Rogers to take his shirt off, you come up with a reason for it, he takes his shirt off, he puts it back on, and the movie continues on like nothing happened. If you want Reylo to happen, that affects the characterization of the protagonist of the series and one of the primary antagonists. It colors them and the whole trilogy so that people end up seeing it as a defining element. If some people love Reylo and some people hate it, it becomes polarizing. Disney doesn't (or at least shouldn't, since they're in the business of making money) want Star Wars to be polarizing to their audience, because they want them to keep watching and having fond feelings about the property and shelling out money for Darth Vader merchandising. So even though Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey have their audience and their place, that doesn't necessarily mean that's the best thing for Star Wars, at least not at the Skywalker Saga level.

 

[BatLobster]

I don't think there's an inherent "right" way to write a female hero. She can exude femininity and "softness" ala Wonder Woman, or be a more stoic badass with a heart of gold. Or be quirky, or funny or any number of qualities. Neither approach is invalid. Look at Furiosa or Sarah Conner. Just like there are multiple ways to write a male hero.

And just speaking anecdotally, my wife LOVES Rey. Loves loves loves, wears Rey T-shirts and everything. She hated the kiss with a passion, but she loved everything else about Rey's character and I'm pretty sure any attempt to give her a super lovey-dovey romantic subplot would've detracted from the exact thing she responded to with Rey. I would also disagree that Rey didn't have compassion. She clearly did.

 

[Donner]

By the end of the trilogy, her power came from a man and she was a vessel for the Jedi to get what they wanted (and she would have died doing so if it wasn't for Ben). I wish her story was written by a woman.

 

[godisawesome]

Don’t disagree with any of this. Again, romance is fine, love if fine, but no-one making this trilogy bothered to do it right. Hell, this trilogy almost went out of its way to remove love entirely out of Star Wars. And it comes back to how these creative types are treating their female characters. They were so concerned with making Rey ‘the hero’ they were too afraid to show her having female desires and traits under some misguided idea it would make her look weak. She can’t have love, she can’t have compassion, she has to be able to do everything herself, she’s over powered, she can’t dress in anything feminine, etc. Every decision made with this character came from the perspective that anything feminine or related to women was weak. Meanwhile, Wonder Woman comes out, embraces literally everything about women and what appeals to women, and is loved by everyone.

I’d say Rey’s real problem isn’t a desire to make her “the hero” as much as it’s Abrams and Johnson approaching that idea from wildly different creative philosophies, though to some extent I think both have certain “overcompensations” to mix with their personal ideas of her characterization and flaws, with TROS ending up “holding the bag” cause day dissonance with both.

Both Abrams and Johnson want Rey to have flaws and show her having them... but their opposing, oxymoronic flaws that undercut each other. And you can honestly see their different takes by the relationships and nuances in how they approach Rey with her main male companion (Abrams with Finn in TFA, Johnson with Kylo in TLJ).

Abrams’s initial TFA version of Rey is a tough, assertive young woman who is more a classic “hero” than a “heroine,” if that makes sense; she’s an Action Girl who’s story wouldn’t need much modification to be that of a male character, in that her emotional portrayal, while passionate and human, comes with a survivor’s instinct and while she’s very much a girl, she’s a tomboy-type of girl. She is capable of compassion, softer emotions, and making mistakes, but they’re not “traditionally feminine” in nature. Her flaw in TFA is one of denial and fear of facing up to being abandoned by her parents - she has abandonment issues which would be all too familiar to a teacher like myself if they came from a sometimes moody, spirited, but tough and sometimes contrarian kid from a foster home. Those abandonment issues contribute to her being assaulted by Kylo and losing Han and almost losing Finn.

(A good comparison here might be someone like Korra from the Avatar cartoon series named after her, or the sometimes more assertive versions of Wonder Woman.)

In contrast, Johnson’s version of Rey in TLJ has at least some significantly more “traditionally feminine” characteristics that don’t quite line-up with the TFA version and emerged from a different interpretation of her. While she is still nominally a hardened survivor, she’s a bit more passive, overall “softer,” especially towards Kylo, and downright naive as her character flaw - she trusts Kylo too quickly on too little information, and sees her hoped for dream of him becoming the main hero shattered by his decision not to be redeemed, and instead of abandonment issues she has an identity crisis holding er back from being the hero. She’s a bit less the “traditional” Star Wars hero and more clearly a “heroine,” if that makes sense. Her compassion is very much front and center towards Kylo, and to some extent she even acts “girly” while around him, as opposed to her tomboy portrayal around Finn in TFA.

(For a comparison here, imagine one of the more “girly” versions of Supergirl, like the one who was dated by Powerboy for a while,)

Now, neither portrayal is totally exclusive of the other, though I’d say both portrayal lend themselves to certain strengths in potential adventure romance stories. TFA’s “tomboy” Rey is a lot more likely to be “the dude” in her relationship with Finn, for instance, and definitely has clear aggression that resembles Anakin and Luke’s temper when dealing with Kylo. TLJ’s slightly more “feminine” Rey, on the other hand, is more likely to play the traditional “princess” to Kylo’s “dark prince” (partially why I think most fans of their pairing prefer TLJ for that nuance), and she’s a bit less likely to have to deal with aggression as a character flaw.

I think this even applies to her power level/skill level in the first two films - TFA emphasizes and makes her “overskilled” as a prodigy, capable of picking up knowledge extremely quickly, but not necessarily to immediate powerful use, while TLJ is a bit more “overpowerEd” in terms of raw strength... possibly in compensation for her being less “mentally” strong.

And unfortunately, combining theses variation is to TROS just doesn’t work as smoothly; Abrams still uses a more assertive and aggressive Rey mentally like the tomboy he wrote, but she is still supposed to end up with a a more passive attitude towards Kylo/Ben when the time comes, even to the point of playing Sleeping Beauty to Ben’s Prince Charming. And she has Abrams preferred “instant expert” strength with Johnson’s “super-powerful” trait, and she neither has remaining abandonment issues or identity crisis issues, and she can’t be too aggressive towards Kylo, because she’s supposed to fall for him.

I think either Abrams or Johnson could have made a more consistent and appealing heroine if the other wasn’t undermining their work.

 

[jmc]

But we have to be honest here too. There was clearly a mandate, and in particular Kennedy, who wanted the lead character to be a woman. When that's the position you start from then you're only ever going to get a compromised character, because you're putting the sex of the person ahead of any idea. If the character came about because someone had this idea of an orphan girl who goes from being nobody to saving the galaxy then those foundations are significantly stronger, that's an idea that can be pitched and built upon. You can create goals, obstacles and values for that character, subsequently the process becomes organic. Starting with the character being 'the hero' first is essentially like trying to build a house from the roof down. Rey, for all intense and purposes, is little more than a rough sketch, made all the more worse as you say by the fact two directors had completely different ideas about how to colour that sketch in.

Here's the other thing. I know there are different way you can do heroines. The problem is there's no inherent point in doing female heroes if they don't come at things from a female perspective. All the best female heroes do this. Sarah Conner and Ripley are protective mothers, Katniss Evergreen acts like any big sister would, Wonder Woman comes to mans world fighting with love, compassion and empathy, The Bride is seeking revenge for the loss of her child, early Lara Croft is confident, smart and likes both getting her hands dirty and looking glamorous, hell even generic old Captain Marvel for a short period of time delves into the importance of female friendship. There's no point in doing female heroes if you don't give the girl a woman's point of view, otherwise the character is just pretending to be a dude, and frankly the only people who want to see that are blue haired weirdo on Twitter who don't have the money to purchase merchandise.

 

[godisawesome]

But we have to be honest here too. There was clearly a mandate, and in particular Kennedy, who wanted the lead character to be a woman. When that's the position you start from then you're only ever going to get a compromised character, because you're putting the sex of the person ahead of any idea. If the character came about because someone had this idea of an orphan girl who goes from being nobody to saving the galaxy then those foundations are significantly stronger, that's an idea that can be pitched and built upon. You can create goals, obstacles and values for that character, subsequently the process becomes organic. Starting with the character being 'the hero' first is essentially like trying to build a house from the roof down. Rey, for all intense and purposes, is little more than a rough sketch, made all the more worse as you say by the fact two directors had completely different ideas about how to colour that sketch in.

Here's the other thing. I know there are different way you can do heroines. The problem is there's no inherent point in doing female heroes if they don't come at things from a female perspective. All the best female heroes do this. Sarah Conner and Ripley are protective mothers, Katniss Evergreen acts like any big sister would, Wonder Woman comes to mans world fighting with love, compassion and empathy, The Bride is seeking revenge for the loss of her child, early Lara Croft is confident, smart and likes both getting her hands dirty and looking glamorous, hell even generic old Captain Marvel for a short period of time delves into the importance of female friendship. There's no point in doing female heroes if you don't give the girl a woman's point of view, otherwise the character is just pretending to be a dude, and frankly the only people who want to see that are blue haired weirdo on Twitter who don't have the money to purchase merchandise.

All of that is accurate...

...But I still feel like the “train,” such as it was, was still “on the rails” after TFA, and that a firmer stance by Kennedy or a more accurate estimation of Rey’s characterization in TFA by Johnson would have still resulted in a strong enough character to make the ST successful and avoid succumbing to diminishing returns, particularly regarding a Rey herself.

I’m even pf the opinion that just a bit more awareness and self-critical analysis on Johnson’s part could have kept TLJ as the core story and themes he wanted, but without getting nearly as divisive and probably succeeding more; while the Luke story, by its very nature, has to be divisive, I honestly think that even something as seemingly guaranteed to be schismatic as Rey and Kylo’s relationship, her not being a Skywalker, or even supplanting Finn as the male lead with Kylo could have quite easily turned out identical in strength but far less weak, anemic, or loathsome.

Hell, with Rey and Kylo, I feel like embracing and tackling Kylo’s actions head-on with more passion/anger and horrified curiosity on Rey’s part would have inevitably heightened and strengthened the dramatic value of any relationship with Kylo, romantic, platonic, antagonistic, whatever. The entire appeal of that relationship is rooted in conflict; embracing and acknowledging it before addressing it simply allows it to be something more than a dubious concept.

And as much as I think that Rey as a Skywalker would just be an inherently smarter answer to her heritage mystery... Rey Random can have genuine power if you make sure selling that and making it stand out is actually the point of her scenes, not mooning over Kylo for no reason or being a spectator for Luke’s scenes in a way that makes her more of a supporter of their stories than the star of their interactions.

I could even feel like Finn being supplanted by Kylo could be acceptable if you actually had some damn ambition for him in a different roleM and there I just have a grudge against Johnson seemingly talking himself out of better ideas out of appathy; even just the idea of him and Rose having issues stemming from Finn holding Paige as she died as a result of Poe’s arrogance sounds a hell of a lot better than the utter tripe he got in the final film. And it’s not like it would have been hard to make Phasma something more than a wasted cameo by a great actress.

At the core of the Sequel Trilogy, I simply think that TLJ’s divisive and perhaps derailing nature in the middle of the ST is as much or more a product of Rian Johnson having that one off day that every great artist eventually has than it is the simple “boldness” of his ideas; he didn’t meet his usual standards as a writer, and while he was good enough to sell it to people who thought like he did, he killed a lot of Rey’s appeal, wasted Finn and Boyega’s hard work, and made Kylo into a character with a matching hatedom to his previous fandom, while basically dooming the ST to have a depressing ending to the 9-part story it was telling, and all because he botched the long term value of his ideas.

 

[jmc]

I don't disagree with any of this. The sequel trilogy was compromised on multiple levels by multiple people because there was little thought given into what the whole thing was suppose to be about. Boyega's complaints stem from this. He's not the only person who's character was short changed now matter how he feels because there was a lack of leadership running this show from the beginning. The most shocking thing to me about this whole thing is how many people working on this trilogy didn't actually understand what it was they were working on. We've seen plenty of misguided franchises over the years, but it takes a special kind of incompetence to create a Star Wars trilogy that literally halved its audience in the space of 4 years. To have the Joker movie, a violent and mature film, earn more money than the last film in what is suppose to be the biggest mythological saga in the last 50 years, is frankly embarrassing. How the **** do you not have a three movie arc set out from the beginning?

 

[Mani-Man]

Well enough people clearly thought it was romantic so...

Yeah well there are also people who think Joker and Harley is the best romance in a comic book medium.
People thinking something doesnt neccessary makes it.

But when it comes to Romance, yeah people ship all kinds of stuff based on very little.
There are whole groups who ship this or that character just because they once stood close together for 5 seconds.

Nobody can deny that they wanted reylo to be a romance, thats not a question.
Problem is that they also wanted to have them be enemies, be opposite etc in the worst possible way.
They wanted several different variations of a cake, not bothering how it looks or tastes.

Its in my opinion one of the worst written "romances" because of that.
The idea of reylo was fine, but thats one of the huge problems of everything star wars sequels related...the ideas were there, the execution of those ideas however was bad.

You could have done good things with Reylo no doubt, but what ended up happening was a mess.

But we have to be honest here too. There was clearly a mandate, and in particular Kennedy, who wanted the lead character to be a woman. When that's the position you start from then you're only ever going to get a compromised character, because you're putting the sex of the person ahead of any idea. If the character came about because someone had this idea of an orphan girl who goes from being nobody to saving the galaxy then those foundations are significantly stronger, that's an idea that can be pitched and built upon. You can create goals, obstacles and values for that character, subsequently the process becomes organic. Starting with the character being 'the hero' first is essentially like trying to build a house from the roof down. Rey, for all intense and purposes, is little more than a rough sketch, made all the more worse as you say by the fact two directors had completely different ideas about how to colour that sketch in.

Here's the other thing. I know there are different way you can do heroines. The problem is there's no inherent point in doing female heroes if they don't come at things from a female perspective. All the best female heroes do this. Sarah Conner and Ripley are protective mothers, Katniss Evergreen acts like any big sister would, Wonder Woman comes to mans world fighting with love, compassion and empathy, The Bride is seeking revenge for the loss of her child, early Lara Croft is confident, smart and likes both getting her hands dirty and looking glamorous, hell even generic old Captain Marvel for a short period of time delves into the importance of female friendship. There's no point in doing female heroes if you don't give the girl a woman's point of view, otherwise the character is just pretending to be a dude, and frankly the only people who want to see that are blue haired weirdo on Twitter who don't have the money to purchase merchandise.

I agree with this.

 

[henzINNIT]

By the end of the trilogy, her power came from a man and she was a vessel for the Jedi to get what they wanted (and she would have died doing so if it wasn't for Ben). I wish her story was written by a woman.

It might have helped. Disney's diversity push was sadly only in the most marketable areas. Honestly, I get why the director pool is so limited to an extent (as there's only a handful of people studios will trust with 200m), but it blows my mind that there wasn't a lady hired to write at any point but Disney will pay Chris Terrio.

But we have to be honest here too. There was clearly a mandate, and in particular Kennedy, who wanted the lead character to be a woman. When that's the position you start from then you're only ever going to get a compromised character, because you're putting the sex of the person ahead of any idea.

Lets not overstate this either. The central character being a girl is hardly a gigantic creative hurdle. It's not like potential brilliance was compromised by this decision. Didn't Lucas have a female lead in his pitch too?

 

[I Am The Knight]

I like the Reylo story and I think it's pretty pathetic to judge people on the content they consume.

Men can like whatever they want and actually fought censorship so they could consume more content. So, yeah.

Okay...Why do you like Reylo, exactly? Just trying to understand, 'cause it always seemed like a fan fiction gone wrong kind of thing, that then made it into canon, somehow

 

[BatLobster]

But we have to be honest here too. There was clearly a mandate, and in particular Kennedy, who wanted the lead character to be a woman. When that's the position you start from then you're only ever going to get a compromised character, because you're putting the sex of the person ahead of any idea.

That would be innacurate. The idea that the Sequel trilogy would follow a female protagonist 100% came from George Lucas. This idea goes as far back as 1980, when "There is another" was supposed to originally refer to Luke's twin sister who was across the galaxy and would be the Jedi hero of Episodes 7, 8 and 9, eventually confronting The Emperor. Come 1983, Lucas was burnt out, so he decided to make Leia the twin sister and deal with the Emperor in ROTJ, so he could tie up the loose ends and call it a day. He was alwasy more interested in the prequels and never figured he'd get to making the sequels.

When he started developing ideas for the sequel trilogy in preparation for the Disney sale, he what he always did-- dusted off older ideas. Lucas was developing his version of Episode VII with Michael Ardnt, and their female protagonist was called Kira-- who bares a lot of resemblence to Rey.

Screenwriter Michael Arndt described Kira as a “loner, hothead, gear-head, badass,” and the early story focused on Kira’s journey of self-discovery, from fearful Force-sensitive to master.

Force Awakens Changes: Jedi Killers, Force Ghosts and The Doom Star

There's even concept art for her:

Just to be clear, Michael Ardnt was Lucas' guy, and these ideas predate the Disney sale. This stuff is all from when Lucas was still on board and developing the ideas with him. The character was always conceived as a female Jedi, and a 'badass' archetype.

It's absolutely fair to have a problem with how Kennedy handled the franchise, but the idea that she was the reason for a "mandate" to have a badass female protagonist is demonstrably false. That came straight from George's head.

 

[Donner]

Okay...Why do you like Reylo, exactly? Just trying to understand, 'cause it always seemed like a fan fiction gone wrong kind of thing, that then made it into canon, somehow

I like the enemies to lovers trope and redemption arcs.

 

[godisawesome]

How the **** do you not have a three movie arc set out from the beginning?

Or, alternatively, how do you not, at some point, have someone making an earlier movie at least come up with the strategic goals for the characters in the next movie before they leave?

As much as I dislike TLJ... if you at least asked Johnson, once he’s finalized his script, to come up with the rough treatment fro the finale he thinks fits his movie, you’ve got some bedrock to try and form the next movie on. There’s some scuttlebutt that Abrams had left some early treatments that Johnson could have used, and while I would like to think he did so because it would help me argue against TLJ, knowing Abrams’s hate for planning things out and improvisational style, they could have been rough enough to be useless.

But someone should have laid down the groundwork for something at some point before they got to the last film. Maybe Ben getting redeemed was one thing like that. But then you need to make sure the preceding film builds to that in a good way, and doesn’t just pull another head-fake without really fleshing the character out.

That would be innacurate. The idea that the Sequel trilogy would follow a female protagonist 100% came from George Lucas. This idea goes as far back as 1980, when "There is another" was supposed to originally refer to Luke's twin sister who was across the galaxy and would be the Jedi hero of Episodes 7, 8 and 9, eventually confronting The Emperor. Come 1983, Lucas was burnt out, so he decided to make Leia the twin sister and deal with the Emperor in ROTJ, so he could tie up the loose ends and call it a day. He was alwasy more interested in the prequels and never figured he'd get to making the sequels.

When he started developing ideas for the sequel trilogy in preparation for the Disney sale, he what he always did-- dusted off older ideas. Lucas was developing his version of Episode VII with Michael Ardnt, and their female protagonist was called Kira-- who bares a lot of resemblence to Rey.


Force Awakens Changes: Jedi Killers, Force Ghosts and The Doom Star

There's even concept art for her:

Just to be clear, Michael Ardnt was Lucas' guy, and these ideas predate the Disney sale. This stuff is all from when Lucas was still on board and developing the ideas with him. The character was always conceived as a female Jedi, and a 'badass' archetype.

It's absolutely fair to have a problem with how Kennedy handled the franchise, but the idea that she was the reason for a "mandate" to have a badass female protagonist is demonstrably false. That came straight from George's head.

On a somewhat humorous note, “Kira’s” early conception under Lucas plays into arguments about whether or not Rey was ever at any point in production a Skywalker or Solo on the other forum I used to mod on.

The two biggest theories are that either A) “Kira” was a non-Skywalker watching in horror as her best friend “Sam/Skylar Solo,” the original version of both Finn and Kylo, fell to the dark side in the first movie as she became the main hero to try and redeem him, or B) “Kira Solo” watched as her bother fell to the dark side, and thus was trying to redeem him but also allowing for a kind of “match-point” duel between the legacy of Anakin vs the legacy of Vader.

(Note: Finn and Kylo both emerging from “Sam/Skylar” helps explain why trying to recombine those elements just into Kylo screwed over Finn and even Ben Solo, to some extent; Finn had been created to be the best friend and companion, and Ben hadn’t even been established).

Generally, nobody looking back at the earliest stuff thinks that “Kira” would have been Luke’s daughter; Lucas’s feelings on that specific idea were clear. But there is something close to a consensus that it would be highly unlikely for Lucas to not have his female protagonist be a member of the family, and Lucas did at one point ask Abrams what happened to Vader’s grandkids...

To me, Rey Random as an idea was always a bit dubious once Kylo was established as a Solo, and needed hard work to sell, and I’ll just flat out say that I think TLJ is an utter failure at making the “Everyman vs Elite”; not only is Rey Random herself dismissed and downplayed by the film, but Finn is basically being punished as well even though he already encapsulates that’s theme.

I like the enemies to lovers trope and redemption arcs.

You know I don’t like the movie version of Reylo... but I can understand and respect its conceptual appeal. It’s not a weird ‘ship to have, it’s just a more debatable ‘ship when executed the way it was in the final movies.

...Have you read Lost Star by Claudia Grey? It’s not quite an Enemies To Lovers story, since the characters start out as childhood friends and basically consummate their love before becoming enemies... but the “Redemption” element is a major aspect of the end of the book, and it’s full of all the awesome conflict that makes the Enemies To Lovers trope work.

 

[jmc]

That would be innacurate. The idea that the Sequel trilogy would follow a female protagonist 100% came from George Lucas. This idea goes as far back as 1980, when "There is another" was supposed to originally refer to Luke's twin sister who was across the galaxy and would be the Jedi hero of Episodes 7, 8 and 9, eventually confronting The Emperor. Come 1983, Lucas was burnt out, so he decided to make Leia the twin sister and deal with the Emperor in ROTJ, so he could tie up the loose ends and call it a day. He was alwasy more interested in the prequels and never figured he'd get to making the sequels.

When he started developing ideas for the sequel trilogy in preparation for the Disney sale, he what he always did-- dusted off older ideas. Lucas was developing his version of Episode VII with Michael Ardnt, and their female protagonist was called Kira-- who bares a lot of resemblence to Rey.


Force Awakens Changes: Jedi Killers, Force Ghosts and The Doom Star

There's even concept art for her:

Just to be clear, Michael Ardnt was Lucas' guy, and these ideas predate the Disney sale. This stuff is all from when Lucas was still on board and developing the ideas with him. The character was always conceived as a female Jedi, and a 'badass' archetype.

It's absolutely fair to have a problem with how Kennedy handled the franchise, but the idea that she was the reason for a "mandate" to have a badass female protagonist is demonstrably false. That came straight from George's head.

I'm more than aware of Kira and that she was Lucas' original protagonist. But we are talking two very different approaches here. Her creation would have come around far more organically. But Rey is not Kira. In fact it's almost pointless even bringing up George's original ideas because Kennedy and Iger completely disregarded everything George wrote. They kept a female lead without any idea what to do with her, what her arc was and what she meant to the saga as a whole. Did they even bother tossing around ideas for a male lead? My guess to that is they absolutely didn't. So, nothing about my original post is invalid. They started with a sketch of a character, and the results was little more than a sketch.

 

[TheVileOne]

It's not like George Lucas had better ideas on how to write his own characters in the prequels. Just saying

His idea was that Darth Vader was so powerful because of microscopic organisms in his blood.

 

[godisawesome]

It's not like George Lucas had better ideas on how to write his own characters in the prequels. Just saying

His idea was that Darth Vader was so powerful because of microscopic organisms in his blood.

Complaining about midichlorians just sounds like the usual meaningless Generation X kvetching that blinded them to the issues with the Trilogy they made, in my opinion.

Now, Lucas did struggle with writing characters and directing his actors in the PT, that much I’ll admit... but he also showcases the simple and arguable determinative advantage that having solid, thought through stories and character arcs.

At no point would I say that Ridley, Boyega, Driver, et al struggled the way Christensen or Portman did during the nadir of AOTC... but I’d still argue that AOTC still did what it needed to do to still allow its assets to work in the favor of ROTS and the brand overall.

Heck, I’d argue *one* scene from AOTC proved more handy and useful to Anakin’s ROTS story than almost all of Rey’s TLJ to TROS - Anakin’s Tusken Village Massacre and his breakdown afterwards connect righteous anger and fury to his mother’s torture and death, the type everyone can understand, to both a horrible atrocity and the shame and guilt that haunts Anakin even as he tries to overcompensate with heroics afterwards. It pitches him perfectly as a future Fallen Hero you can understand but still know is wrong.

Rey, on the other hand, starts the tug-of-war over what she should even be in TLJ, and isn’t really even focused on enough to further flesh out who she is - particularly if you thought you *did* know her in TFA and can’t connect this pro-Kylo fangirl and timid would-be-bystander to the toughened survivor and found family member of Finn and Han you observed previously.

Like, it’s weird, because I’d say Johnson is a better director of actors and gets a better performance from a more trained actress in Ridley in TLJ... but Christensen still wound up performing a more valuable and illuminating part of his character’s story well enough to pay dividends in ROTS that I don’t think even a great story in TROS could have given Ridley.

I really do hope, as odd as it may seem given my opinion of TLJ, that Johnson’s trilogy ends up made - I think he is an excellent writer with his own characters. I just don’t think he was the kind of kid to appreciate Abrams’s toys afterwards, and he wound up cannibalizing and kitbashing them into something that interested himself and some others, but left them unusable later.

 

[TheVileOne]

Complaining about midichlorians just sounds like the usual meaningless Generation X kvetching that blinded them to the issues with the Trilogy they made, in my opinion.

Now, Lucas did struggle with writing characters and directing his actors in the PT, that much I’ll admit... but he also showcases the simple and arguable determinative advantage that having solid, thought through stories and character arcs.

At no point would I say that Ridley, Boyega, Driver, et al struggled the way Christensen or Portman did during the nadir of AOTC... but I’d still argue that AOTC still did what it needed to do to still allow its assets to work in the favor of ROTS and the brand overall.

Heck, I’d argue *one* scene from AOTC proved more handy and useful to Anakin’s ROTS story than almost all of Rey’s TLJ to TROS - Anakin’s Tusken Village Massacre and his breakdown afterwards connect righteous anger and fury to his mother’s torture and death, the type everyone can understand, to both a horrible atrocity and the shame and guilt that haunts Anakin even as he tries to overcompensate with heroics afterwards. It pitches him perfectly as a future Fallen Hero you can understand but still know is wrong.

Rey, on the other hand, starts the tug-of-war over what she should even be in TLJ, and isn’t really even focused on enough to further flesh out who she is - particularly if you thought you *did* know her in TFA and can’t connect this pro-Kylo fangirl and timid would-be-bystander to the toughened survivor and found family member of Finn and Han you observed previously.

Like, it’s weird, because I’d say Johnson is a better director of actors and gets a better performance from a more trained actress in Ridley in TLJ... but Christensen still wound up performing a more valuable and illuminating part of his character’s story well enough to pay dividends in ROTS that I don’t think even a great story in TROS could have given Ridley.

I really do hope, as odd as it may seem given my opinion of TLJ, that Johnson’s trilogy ends up made - I think he is an excellent writer with his own characters. I just don’t think he was the kind of kid to appreciate Abrams’s toys afterwards, and he wound up cannibalizing and kitbashing them into something that interested himself and some others, but left them unusable later.

All that Generation X kvetching is what motivated Lucas to move on and sell the franchise in the first place.