The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[henzINNIT]

I get that, but personally I think a final statement on Rey's lineage was necessary when he framed the trilogy as a mystery surrounding her identity. And for all of TLJ's bold choices with Luke, when it comes to Rey I don't think the "they were nobody" reveal was something that felt all that set in stone. We don't even really get to see Rey grapple with it much, as she's able to pretty quickly shrug it off and save the day in the 3rd act. There was still something big that felt unresolved with her, IMO. I like Rian's explanation that the reveal is more about her having to come to terms with the fact that she won't be able to rely on a bloodline to define her. Which in fairness, does not contradict the idea of her coming from a bloodline of the worst evil in the galaxy, which is why I can appreciate the Palpatine reveal as a follow-up to TLJ.

It does appear that Rey's lineage was destined for further embellishment regardless of who made 9. I don't love either approach tbh, but I'll give Trevorrow the point for not feeling like so much of a retcon. JJ could have ticked a lot of fan boxes if he made Rey a creation of Palpatine's instead of a descendant, tying in to Anakin and the lore, and she still could have been born to uncaring drunks this way too. This makes so much sense to me that I'm convinced it must have come up when writing it.

 

[Eggyman]

I have to agree with @fan4stic on this one. And yeah I know you disagree right back. But Luke didn’t have to be there hiding to figure out how to defeat Snoke either, there are plenty of other reasons he could have been there which would have made his abandoning easier to swallow and understand. He couldn’t have been protecting something, seeking guidance from the first Jedi, training a/some of the remaining ids while keeping them from Snoke, he could have been trapped there. Plenty of other ways Johnson could have gone without upsetting the fans and Hamill himself, but in his arrogance he shut out the questions and criticisms and sentence his own way instead.

I don't think Ryan went quite far enough with Luke. When I heard 'It's time for the jedi to end' and all the talk of balance, I really thought that Luke had evolved beyond the jedi after years of studying how they'd grown complacent and allowed the sith to rise and were in part responsible for the fall of his father.

Jedi also deal in absolutes and in our very own reality we have many examples of extremism via left or right not being the greatest thing.

After RotS I saw Luke as the balance that Anakin brought to the force by being someone who can tap into the dark but not be consumed by it.

If it had been a bit more to do with evolving beyond the jedi, the student taking the Skywalker as a title and not a surname would've made more sense in the trilogy closer.

 

[fan4stic]

Whether you want to call it respect, or sympathize with, I'm basically talking about the same thing. I don't sympathize with a filmmaker and studio being given the power to set the course for the sequel trilogy of Star Wars, and having so few original ideas that they 'incidentally' ended up creating a quasi-reboot (as per Abrams, who claims TFA wasn't a reboot), and 'incidentally' constructed a narrative in which the central hero of the original trilogy was an absentee failure. Luckily, I give Abrams more credit than that and I don't think it was completely incidental. I should also clarify that I actually like the arc Luke has in TLJ. I wouldn't praise it if I merely thought it made logical sense as a continuation-- it was emotional for me and the most genuine emotion I felt from the ST as a whole easily. It was also the thing that helped justify Luke's absence from TFA for me.

I think the 2 are different things, to me.

I don't think there was much emotion in it that I got. I got more emotion from a fan video about it. You may have seen it.

The Luke thing boils down to this for me. Every single suggestion I've seen for alternative directions for Episode 8 say "Luke could've been on the island for *insert plot device here*.

Johnson's decision was to make it a character-driven reason instead of a more surface level, plot-driven reason that would merely be there to preserve Luke in amber the way we remember him. But mythologically, we're meeting Luke at a later point in his life after things have gone horribly wrong. It doesn't fit for him to be the same heroic character. That ship had sailed once TFA hit the reset button and casually dismissed all the victories of the OT. There's an extremely dark undertone to what TFA actually implies, despite the fun and breezy tone. TFA's entire existence is there to tell us that Return of the Jedi didn't amount to much in the end. That's some heavy sh**! You've got to own that. It's getting more into the late-age King Arthur territory that Johnson references.

I think, at least, some of the others I pointed out could be character based and not be a preservation of the character.

I don't think it was character driven in the movie. i think it didn't really explore, develop or resolve his character as the movie positioned it.

I haven't said to preserve the character or even that I think the concept of what the movie went for is something I think is bad or dislike. I think that it's not developed, explored or resolved well. I think it's not a well constructed narrative.

I don't really think TLJ really commits to it, with Luke being funny old man bitter and the the comedy and such, and, no matter how heavy I think it is going for, with the movie not really exploring many new things. I didn't like that in TFA and I don't like it here.

I will always feel that it was a stronger choice than the alternatives, and I appreciate it enough that it helps me forgive some of the other flaws in TLJ. Filmmaking is about making choices and having a point of view on the story you're telling. We can't say that Rian wasn't true to his point of view, and that is really all you have as a filmmaker. Once you start playing the guessing game of "what will the fans want?", you're dead in the water. Because that can all too often backfire.

And I even applaud TROS for some of the same reasons, even though it's trying too hard to please everyone. At least it did make some choices and took some swings. They decided that Rey is a Palpatine, and at least committed to that idea. You don't have to like it, but I can appreciate that JJ finally said..."this is the story we're telling." For better or for worse.

I can think both have a point of view. It doesn't mean I think they're not capable of messing up. If i think a point of view isn't well written or interesting, from a character and story perspective, I don't really think the choices can be as strongly done.

 

[TheVileOne]

I kind of feel like Rise of Skywalker did more to erase the victories of Return of the Jedi more so than Force Awakens.

 

[TheVileOne]

I don't think Ryan went quite far enough with Luke. When I heard 'It's time for the jedi to end' and all the talk of balance, I really thought that Luke had evolved beyond the jedi after years of studying how they'd grown complacent and allowed the sith to rise and were in part responsible for the fall of his father.

Jedi also deal in absolutes and in our very own reality we have many examples of extremism via left or right not being the greatest thing.

After RotS I saw Luke as the balance that Anakin brought to the force by being someone who can tap into the dark but not be consumed by it.

If it had been a bit more to do with evolving beyond the jedi, the student taking the Skywalker as a title and not a surname would've made more sense in the trilogy closer.

Reminds me how immediately post Force Awakens, everyone was on that GREY JEDI kick

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't think Ryan went quite far enough with Luke. When I heard 'It's time for the jedi to end' and all the talk of balance, I really thought that Luke had evolved beyond the jedi after years of studying how they'd grown complacent and allowed the sith to rise and were in part responsible for the fall of his father.

Jedi also deal in absolutes and in our very own reality we have many examples of extremism via left or right not being the greatest thing.

After RotS I saw Luke as the balance that Anakin brought to the force by being someone who can tap into the dark but not be consumed by it.

If it had been a bit more to do with evolving beyond the jedi, the student taking the Skywalker as a title and not a surname would've made more sense in the trilogy closer.

And even that I would have preferred to what we got. A Luke that gave up just doesn't and will never sit right with me.

 

[BatLobster]

I think the 2 are different things, to me.

I don't think there was much emotion in it that I got. I got more emotion from a fan video about it. You may have seen it.I think, at least, some of the others I pointed out could be character based and not be a preservation of the character.

I don't think it was character driven in the movie. i think it didn't really explore, develop or resolve his character as the movie positioned it.

I haven't said to preserve the character or even that I think the concept of what the movie went for is something I think is bad or dislike. I think that it's not developed, explored or resolved well. I think it's not a well constructed narrative.

I don't really think TLJ really commits to it, with Luke being funny old man bitter and the the comedy and such, and, no matter how heavy I think it is going for, with the movie not really exploring many new things. I didn't like that in TFA and I don't like it here.I can think both have a point of view. It doesn't mean I think they're not capable of messing up. If i think a point of view isn't well written or interesting, from a character and story perspective, I don't really think the choices can be as strongly done.

If we're talking strictly execution, that's totally fair. If you like the idea and not how it was executed, I can't really argue that.

For me, I thought it worked. It had a balance where it explored some heavy things, but still within the lens of a Star Wars film, which is always supposed to have a certain warm and fuzzy tone to it. I think it rode the line. The big thing that sold it all for me with Mark Hamill's performance. He got to show so much range. Longing, regret, hope, humor, wisdom, pain, resolve....pretty much the whole gamut.

But for all the praise I'm giving TLJ and Johnson for this direction, the whole thing rests on Hamill's performance. Without him giving it his all, the whole thing falls apart. It's the best performance of his career, IMHO.

 

[fan4stic]

If we're talking strictly execution, that's totally fair. If you like the idea and not how it was executed, I can't really argue that.

It's not that I don't like how it was executed. I think it wasn't executed well as a construct. The movie showcases Luke as having something emotionally damaged in him that drove him to consider killing his nephew in his sleep, but we don't explore that, why he has that or resolve it, to me. Yoda gives a speech about failure. But Luke doesn't learn from his failure. His failure is when he considered killing his nephew in his sleep. Nothing Yoda says resolves that to me. Luke believing that no one's really gone means nothing to what he did. Believing someone is gone doesn't equal considering killing them in their sleep, and I see no reason why Luke would think that or think that his nephew is gone when he thought his dad wasn't and saw his dad turn away from the dark side, or what any of this has to do with the jedi's failure in the prequels, when their failure isn't what Luke's failure was.

 

[BatLobster]

It's not that I don't like how it was executed. I think it wasn't executed well as a construct. The movie showcases Luke as having something emotionally damaged in him that drove him to consider killing his nephew in his sleep, but we don't explore that, why he has that or resolve it, to me.

It's the opposite. He had a fleeting moment of darkness that was driven by fear, and a result of that, he came away emotionally damaged, blaming himself for failing the Jedi, his legacy, his family, everything. It's the complete opposite there.

Now if you disagree with the premise of Luke ever even thinking a bad thought like that, as many do, I can't really argue that. I was willing to buy the concept that Luke was confronted with the idea of all his hard earned victories coming undone because of the darkness in this boy, and had a brief
passing shadow" of darkness that quickly passed. He was always quick to be emotionally triggered. Even his finest hour in Return of the Jedi, comes only AFTER he nearly kills his own father in a blind rage.

Yoda's speech is to remind him that he is overburdening himself with the pressure of being this "perfect" Jedi and the hero of the galaxy and taking his failure too hard because of this, when in fact his failures still offer valuable lessons and are an essential part of what he has to pass down in order for the Jedi to survive into the future and be better than what they were.

It's more about Luke being able to finally forgive himself for his failure and move on. Once he gets past his personal hangups with his own failures which he has conflated with the problems of the old Jedi, he's able to let go of this idea of thinking the Jedi must end. He finds his optimism again. Yoda helps clear that all up for him in his moment of need.

 

[Eggyman]

Bit sour init?

 

[henzINNIT]

I missed this earlier.

Why does he need to signal it? We don't need him to signal it by vocalizing his change. I think it's there when he sees Han killed, and Rey grabs him to snap him out of, what I think is, glaring at Kylo. In that situation, he's not running to Rey.

The character doesn't need to address it with dialogue, but it does help to demonstrate how the character has changed. If a film doesn't do that properly then well, you'll end up arguing about it on a forum and changing answers for when the change occurs. I don't think glaring at Kylo is enough.

 

[fan4stic]

It's the opposite. He had a fleeting moment of darkness that was driven by fear, and a result of that, he came away emotionally damaged, blaming himself for failing the Jedi, his legacy, his family, everything. It's the complete opposite there.

Now if you disagree with the premise of Luke ever even thinking a bad thought like that, as many do, I can't really argue that. I was willing to buy the concept that Luke was confronted with the idea of all his hard earned victories coming undone because of the darkness in this boy, and had a brief
passing shadow" of darkness that quickly passed. He was always quick to be emotionally triggered. Even his finest hour in Return of the Jedi, comes only AFTER he nearly kills his own father in a blind rage.

I don't buy that anyone who doesn't have damage, like that, would pull out a weapon and consider killing their nephew in their sleep without them having done anything yet, like happens in this movie.

I don't disagree with the bad thought premise, but he doesn't have a bad thought. He pulls out a weapon on his sleeping nephew. In some places Kylo would likely not be prosecuted by the government if he killed Luke right then. I think what Luke does there goes beyond the Vader situation in unreasonable reactions. And the movie sidesteps it, like what Luke did isn't an issue. That's not a passing shadow, to me, that's homicidal tendencies that need to be dealt with, that I think the movie never does. You say Luke was quick to be triggered. Okay. Why aren't we delving into that? Into his pain and trauma and loss that brought about that reaction?

Yoda's speech is to remind him that he is overburdening himself with the pressure of being this "perfect" Jedi and the hero of the galaxy and taking his failure too hard because of this, when in fact his failures still offer valuable lessons and are an essential part of what he has to pass down in order for the Jedi to survive into the future and be better than what they were.

It's more about Luke being able to finally forgive himself for his failure and move on. Once he gets past his personal hangups with his own failures which he has conflated with the problems of the old Jedi, he's able to let go of this idea of thinking the Jedi must end. He finds his optimism again. Yoda helps clear that all up for him in his moment of need.

Luke's failure was considering killing his nephew as he did and Yoda's speech doesn't resolve that, to me. The movie leaves Luke's interesting, in depth psychological issues laying there and never does anything with them, to me.

That does nothing to resolve the actual mistake he made.

The character doesn't need to address it with dialogue, but it does help to demonstrate how the character has changed. If a film doesn't do that properly then well, you'll end up arguing about it on a forum and changing answers for when the change occurs. I don't think glaring at Kylo is enough.

I think not seeing it, when I think the movie focuses on it, isn't on the movie, to me.

 

[henzINNIT]

I think not seeing it, when I think the movie focuses on it, isn't on the movie, to me.

Focuses on what exactly? Can't have been a huge focus of the film if you're saying the culmination of Finn's arc was a look on his face for a moment while he did nothing. Definitely on me, and not on the film and its avant garde 'character arcs through inaction' approach.

Finn being comatose at the end of 7 is my main gripe in this regard. We don't really get to see his 'final form', or how the adventure has changed him. He's still scrambling through by the skin of his teeth, and despite his billing Finn is rarely in a position to make any interesting decisions. HIs showdown with Kylo is perhaps intended to show that he isn't going to run away from the First Order anymore, but this is undermined by how it is staged. Of course he'll fight with Rey in trouble, and of course he'll fight with nowhere to go. I think this is largely why Johnson told the story he did with Finn.

 

[fan4stic]

Focuses on what exactly? Can't have been a huge focus of the film if you're saying the culmination of Finn's arc was a look on his face for a moment while he did nothing. Definitely on me, and not on the film and its avant garde 'character arcs through inaction' approach.

I think there's a shot of a close up on his face, where it cuts between him looking down with anger and Kylo looking up.

I think this is largely why Johnson told the story he did with Finn.

I don't see why that's a strong reason. Why tell a similar story based on that?

 

[henzINNIT]

I don't see why that's a strong reason. Why tell a similar story based on that?

To finish what JJ started, or rather continue what he started. 7 had Finn run into the Resistance as he fled the First Order, 8 made him loyal to the cause.

 

[BatLobster]

Focuses on what exactly? Can't have been a huge focus of the film if you're saying the culmination of Finn's arc was a look on his face for a moment while he did nothing. Definitely on me, and not on the film and its avant garde 'character arcs through inaction' approach.

Finn being comatose at the end of 7 is my main gripe in this regard. We don't really get to see his 'final form', or how the adventure has changed him. He's still scrambling through by the skin of his teeth, and despite his billing Finn is rarely in a position to make any interesting decisions. HIs showdown with Kylo is perhaps intended to show that he isn't going to run away from the First Order anymore, but this is undermined by how it is staged. Of course he'll fight with Rey in trouble, and of course he'll fight with nowhere to go. I think this is largely why Johnson told the story he did with Finn.

Bingo.

The movie never gave him a motivation beyond being attached to Rey, or fighting to survive. The movie even goes out of its way to make this explicitly clear.

I don't know where anyone would get the idea that after TFA he wakes up from that coma as a fully committed Rebel, other than projecting things that aren't there onto TFA or just rounding up.

I also have to say, the thing that always bugged me about TFA is how both Finn and Rey AND Finn and Poe instantly become best friends. Part of the magic in the OT was the way Han clashed with both Luke and Leia at first. Finn was positioned as the new Han Solo, but without any of his edge. Meanwhile Poe gets the cool guy edge, but also is a completely underwritten character with no discernible flaws in TFA.

Another thing I have to give points to TROS for was how they characterized the three of them as a trio. There was more tension and spunk in the mix, which made it feel more real. And I especially appreciated the element of Finn quietly knowing about Rey's lineage. It actually added some depth for the unconditional way he cares for her, although the constantly screaming Rey thing is an unfortunate meme. But the overall more confident and committed Finn we see in TROS is my favorite version of Finn in the trilogy, and I do not think you could've credibly had him at that point in Episode 8.

I also think you could probably make an argument that there were simply too many characters in the ST. You essentially have Kylo as one of the leads. It's not the same as the Vader role, because as they stated the intent was for Kylo Ren to be more of a dark side "protagonist" in that he's not fully formed and he has all this baggage. He's a Vader stand-in, but at the same time he's a lot more. in ANH you rarely ever get Vader's point of view on things. In TFA, we get scene of Kylo talking to Vader's helmet, and trying to reconcile with his father, and all this juicy stuff. It's a different thing. So really your new main 3 from TFA are Rey, Finn and Kylo. Poe is just a side character that happens to have a big actor in the role. Couple this with the need to balance all the legacy characters, and the ST is at a MAJOR disadvantage compared to the OT in terms of fleshing out all these young characters without some of them suffering, or simply making longer films.

 

[Marvolo]

Snoke is officially known as a "strandcast" in canon. Strandcast are artificial genetic constructs.

 

[fan4stic]

Bingo.

The movie never gave him a motivation beyond being attached to Rey, or fighting to survive. The movie even goes out of its way to make this explicitly clear.

I think there's a shot of a close up on his face, where it cuts between him looking down with anger and Kylo looking up, I think that shows intention. The movie doesn't have to always have a character tell us what they want.

I don't know where anyone would get the idea that after TFA he wakes up from that coma as a fully committed Rebel, other than projecting things that aren't there onto TFA or just rounding up.

I didn't say I want that. That doesn't mean I think it makes character based sense for everything that happens after he says that he's only in it for Rey, to have no effect on the character.

I also have to say, the thing that always bugged me about TFA is how both Finn and Rey AND Finn and Poe instantly become best friends. Part of the magic in the OT was the way Han clashed with both Luke and Leia at first. Finn was positioned as the new Han Solo, but without any of his edge. Meanwhile Poe gets the cool guy edge, but also is a completely underwritten character with no discernible flaws in TFA.

This doesn't need to be like the OT. The characters don't need to be in conflict the way the OT did it.

To finish what JJ started, or rather continue what he started. 7 had Finn run into the Resistance as he fled the First Order, 8 made him loyal to the cause.

Who says it needed to be finished? I don't see why Finn couldn't have woken up with a hatred of the First Order that he was driven in by what had happened at the end of the last movie.

 

[henzINNIT]

I wish Snoke in a jar never happened. Even dead in TLJ, there was some fun EU potential with the character. I would have been interested to see his origins and rise to power play out in some supplementary material. All this intrigue died in that jar. He was a meat puppet.

Who says it needed to be finished? I don't see why Finn couldn't have woken up with a hatred of the First Order that he was driven in by what had happened at the end of the last movie.

What are you even asking here? I said Johnson was 'finishing' what JJ started by expanding on Finn's arc, which is just standard precedure for a sequel film. It needed to be 'finished' because it was part 1 of 3, and the character needs to progress. But this isn't really the argument.

Finn hated the First Order from the start. He had no fondness for the organization or even any individuals in it. From the moment he flees the First Order with Poe, Finn has no issues blowing his former allies away, and is constantly reminding the other characters how evil and dangerous they are. He didn't need more reasons to hate them.

His conflict in TFA is his desire to run vs. his desire to keep his new friend safe. Finn didn't need motivation, he needed a cause. When he woke up in TLJ, he was still acting the same way: he wanted to protect himself and Rey from the First Order. Being nearly cut in half last time he stood his ground is more likely going to reinforce his belief in running.

 

[Frodo]

The whole Snoke situation was just a mess.

In all honesty , I had zero problem with Johnson taking him out in TLJ. I found him a bore and derivative of Palpatine in TFA anyway , so I had zero problem with what TLJ did with his character.

A third film could have elaborated a bit more on his background and how he seduced Kylo and the other Knights of Ren, just as a means of tying that hanging thread.

However, once they made Palpatine the puppet master, that meant that the whole Snoke thing was gonna be iffy.

As far as Finn goes, the idea of a storm trooper switching sides is good in concept.

There were alot of potential interesting ways you could go with that story, but ultimately, they really didn't have anything really compelling with his character beyond that concept.

 

[fan4stic]

I wish Snoke in a jar never happened. Even dead in TLJ, there was some fun EU potential with the character. I would have been interested to see his origins and rise to power play out in some supplementary material. All this intrigue died in that jar. He was a meat puppet.

What would that have done to change the use of the character in the movies?

What are you even asking here? I said Johnson was 'finishing' what JJ started by expanding on Finn's arc, which is just standard precedure for a sequel film. It needed to be 'finished' because it was part 1 of 3, and the character needs to progress. But this isn't really the argument.

Finn hated the First Order from the start. He had no fondness for the organization or even any individuals in it. From the moment he flees the First Order with Poe, Finn has no issues blowing his former allies away, and is constantly reminding the other characters how evil and dangerous they are. He didn't need more reasons to hate them.

His conflict in TFA is his desire to run vs. his desire to keep his new friend safe. Finn didn't need motivation, he needed a cause. When he woke up in TLJ, he was still acting the same way: he wanted to protect himself and Rey from the First Order. Being nearly cut in half last time he stood his ground is more likely going to reinforce his belief in running.

I think that it didn't finish it, but decided that it hadn't already been concluded and then decided to extend it for not a strong reason.

I don't think he did. He doesn't express any particular anger against them in the movie. Him being apathetic about them isn't the same as having a driving anger towards, which after the events of TFA, I think could be an interesting dynamic to develop.

I think his conflict is his desire to run vs. his desire to stand and fight back, which he does at the end. He stands and stares at Kylo after Han is killed, with Rey grabbing to escape. Then when he stands and fights Kylo. I think TLJ is the movie that decides that the events that occurred after Finn tells Han he's in it for Rey had little to no effect on Finn as a character.

 

[henzINNIT]

What would that have done to change the use of the character in the movies?

Depends on what we have to keep. I think there is a lot unexplained in this trilogy, and would have liked to see the origins of Snoke and the First Order tied into the story at some point. This could have even happened after Snoke's death, with Kylo inheriting an evil empire and perhaps learning some secrets.

If Palpatine's return had to happen, it would have been more interesting to me if Snoke had some form of relationship with the Emperor rather than being a pawn. Saw a theory before 9's release that Palps would be a spectre and perhaps Snoke's appearance was down to him trying to be a host. That's fun. This kind of little detail would have gone a long way to bind this trilogy together.

I think that it didn't finish it, but decided that it hadn't already been concluded and then decided to extend it for not a strong reason.

I don't think he did. He doesn't express any particular anger against them in the movie. Him being apathetic about them isn't the same as having a driving anger towards, which after the events of TFA, I think could be an interesting dynamic to develop.

I think his conflict is his desire to run vs. his desire to stand and fight back, which he does at the end. He stands and stares at Kylo after Han is killed, with Rey grabbing to escape. Then when he stands and fights Kylo. I think TLJ is the movie that decides that the events that occurred after Finn tells Han he's in it for Rey had little to no effect on Finn as a character.

If you think Finn was apathetic toward the First Order before Han died, then I don't know what to tell you.

If Finn's arc was purely about fighting back vs running away, it has really dropped the ball because he constantly fights back, and always in the process of running away. The fight with Kylo doesn't demonstrate Finn doing anything differently.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Snoke felt so forced in retrospect. Kylo killing him is so satisfying to me now.

 

[TheVileOne]

Snoke is officially known as a "strandcast" in canon. Strandcast are artificial genetic constructs.

It doesn't even matter anymore after we saw Snoke in a jar in Rise of Skywalker. From that point on he was artificially created. Putting a name to it doesn't make it better.

 

[antsman41]

I kind of feel like Rise of Skywalker did more to erase the victories of Return of the Jedi more so than Force Awakens.

TROS erases many victories of Star Wars since 1999, in my heart.