The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[antsman41]

Have Kylo see the light, start his redemption path after seeing his actions come face to face with Chewies heartbreak for Kylo and the loss of Han.

Thats 100x more emotional and effective than Kylo just coming upon the weird as hell memory ghost of Han, that we got.

The above is tears inducing, the latter was boring and dumb. Plus, Harrison phoned it in - let alone it didn’t make sense within the established rules of Star Wars. He wasn’t force sensitive, therefore he shouldn’t have been there. Plus, we don’t need to start seeing live-interactive “memories” concerning they could be easily misinterpreted as a version of a Force Ghost.

UGh.

 

[antsman41]

Or... instead of leading into his redemption arc, which I’m not fine with considering he killed Han.

Have him torture Chewie to death. Shows Kylo is lost forever (which he was) and shows Chewie will die to protect his friends, even if it means Ben Solo is forever gone.

 

[henzINNIT]

OK a payoff, but what's the resolution and how do you resolve such a scene?

With writing on TROS level, you have Kylo mock Chewie for never earning a medal. Then it pays off later.

 

[Sian]

All of TLJ. He is complicit in every attempt on her life in that film. Its not as if he didn't know exactly why Snoke was going after the Resistance. He did hesitate to fire a missile at Leia one time, but that bit of redeemable characterization is rendered meaningless when he then later stands by while Snoke and Hux try to destroy all the escape ships flying towards crait. Then he doesnt blink an eye when Rey asks him to stop killing the Resistance. He can only think about the throne and himself. Then he lays siege to a base that he knows Leia is in. Going so far as to shoot a damn Death Star laser into the base.

Even if one was to argue that he may not have actually killed Leia if he caught her, he repeatedly put her in mortal danger and repeatedly stood by while others also put her life in danger.

I didn't see it that way, but there you go.

I guess she got her own back in TROS when she distracted him while he was fighting Rey and she stabbed him.

 

[henzINNIT]

What do you think Kylo meant when he ordered to advance on Leia and her troops and said "No quarter. No prisoners."?

 

[BatLobster]

Having a beat with Kylo and Chewie, if they pulled off the emotion of it, could have helped justify the whole Chewie getting captured beat in the film. Which felt pretty wonky as it was.

I don't care, I will always feel that the story of TROS had plenty of potential but for some reason unknown to me they decided to make a cliffnotes version. Pacing, rhythm, context....these aren't just small things. They can fundamentally alter a movie.

I bet this was one of the scenes Anthony Daniels was referring to in his book about, that he was "gutted" to see go during mid-production rewrites. And he said there were tons of these.

 

[Sian]

What do you think Kylo meant when he ordered to advance on Leia and her troops and said "No quarter. No prisoners."?

I think he was someone who wasn't thinking straight after what he saw as Rey's betrayal. Kylo could have killed his mother when he attacked the Raddus, but couldn't bring himself to do it when he realised she was on board.
Fact is....the DLF studios wanted his character to 'regress' at the end, I saw an interview with Jason Frye where he admitted that although they gave Johnson free reign with the writing....it was only up to a point. Same with Frye - throughout the novel Rey's feelings towards Kylo/Ben began as hatred, gradually turning to understanding and compassion. Then quite suddenly at the end of the book she became detached and almost 'inhuman', choosing to spare him on the Supremacy because it was 'the will of the Force' rather than her own decision. Johnson also had to put that rather silly flirty bit between Rey and Poe because at that time Colin Trevorrow had been hired as writer and he wanted a ReyPoe romance.

 

[henzINNIT]

I think he was someone who wasn't thinking straight after what he saw as Rey's betrayal.

A lot of murderers commit crimes of passion. They still commit the crimes. And Kylo wasn't in a heated argument or a fight or flight situation. He was ordering an army to wipe out a practically defenseless group that were trying to run and hide. He knew his mother was among them and said "no prisoners". He intended for her to die. Premeditated.

Kylo could have killed his mother when he attacked the Raddus, but couldn't bring himself to do it when he realised she was on board.

"He really tried but he just couldn't do it" is a terrible excuse for Kylo, and not counter-evidence at all for the original statement of "Kylo tried to kill Leia". He indisputably did, even by your assessment.

 

[Brother Jack]

It’s sad when that little 8/10 panel fan comic shows more emotion and heart concerning Chewie and Kylo than anything that trilogy attempted.

That comic is canon as far as I'm concerned.

With writing on TROS level, you have Kylo mock Chewie for never earning a medal. Then it pays off later.

That would have made me physically ill. Maybe it's for the best that scene didn't make the cut.

 

[Sian]

A lot of murderers commit crimes of passion. They still commit the crimes. And Kylo wasn't in a heated argument or a fight or flight situation. He was ordering an army to wipe out a practically defenseless group that were trying to run and hide. He knew his mother was among them and said "no prisoners". He intended for her to die. Premeditated.



"He really tried but he just couldn't do it" is a terrible excuse for Kylo, and not counter-evidence at all for the original statement of "Kylo tried to kill Leia". He indisputably did, even by your assessment.

He was actually coded as a mentally ill abuse victim, but never mind.....don't let it get in the way of your hate.

 

[henzINNIT]

He was actually coded as a mentally ill abuse victim, but never mind.....don't let it get in the way of your hate.

This pathetic campaign against people talking ill of Kylo Ren is tiresome. It's not hate. It's unbiased interpretation of the text. You're free to hold any theories you like, but stop objecting to completely neutral statements because it harms your headcanon.

 

[Sian]

Er... campaign?
What campaign?
Most people on this and other forums despise him. The only campaign I've seen is against those who like him. And who are repeatedly dissed for it.

I used to contribute to a news site, about serious real life issues. A woman on there compared the Kylo/ Rey interrogation to a real life sexual abuse case, which horrified me. I answered her by pointing out there was a big difference between real life sexual assault and a fantasy sci fi film.

That was all I said. From then on this woman repeatedly accused me of being a supporter of abuse against women ( despite being one myself) and every time I posted, no matter what the subject, she would answer with yet another aggressive accusation. In the end I quit the site.

I'm sick and tired of people who hate a fictional character deciding that those who have an opposing view must be vile people.

 

[Bobber]

It's kind of funny that Ben Solo has received this massive backlash, but Anakin Skywalker is consistently seen as this tragic antihero.

 

[Sian]

You know why - it's not because Kylo 'kidnapped and assaulted Rey' (other people's opinions not mine). Or his involvement with a brutal oppressive government. Or his killing Lor San Tekka, and executing the villagers on Jakku.

It's because he killed Han Solo.
Han Solo was everyone's favourite character in the OT. And the moment Kylo/Ben put a lighsabre through his dad's chest that was it. This despite Harrison Ford wanting to kill off the character as far back as ROTJ, or the fact that neither he or Leia were 'model' parents (heroes rarely are) or that genuinely moving scene where Han strokes his son's face, which signalled the start of Kylo's redemption.

Anakin murdered children, became consumed by his lust for power, Force choked his pregnant wife, maimed his son, tortured his daughter, and killed God knows how many people - he was complicit in the destruction of Alderaan, unlike Kylo who was actually against and sickened by the destruction of the Hosnian system - but he DIDN'T KILL HAN SOLO.

Anakin thus remains a 'tragic victim'. And despite the fact that he was emotionally manipulated and abused by Snoke/Palpatine all his life, and is coded as a psychological mess, Kylo is despised. Because he killed Han Solo.
Adam Driver himself admitted he was almost physically sick at the premiere of TFA because he was genuinely terrified of fan reaction when he killed Han Solo.

A six foot three, former marine.....was afraid of a bunch of geeks and nerds ( I'm one, so don't get angry).

I actually find that disturbing.

 

[fan4stic]

You know why - it's not because Kylo 'kidnapped and assaulted Rey' (other people's opinions not mine). Or his involvement with a brutal oppressive government. Or his killing Lor San Tekka, and executing the villagers on Jakku.

It's because he killed Han Solo.
Han Solo was everyone's favourite character in the OT. And the moment Kylo/Ben put a lighsabre through his dad's chest that was it. This despite Harrison Ford wanting to kill off the character as far back as ROTJ, or the fact that neither he or Leia were 'model' parents (heroes rarely are) or that genuinely moving scene where Han strokes his son's face, which signalled the start of Kylo's redemption.

Anakin murdered children, became consumed by his lust for power, Force choked his pregnant wife, maimed his son, tortured his daughter, and killed God knows how many people - he was complicit in the destruction of Alderaan, unlike Kylo who was actually against and sickened by the destruction of the Hosnian system - but he DIDN'T KILL HAN SOLO.

Anakin thus remains a 'tragic victim'. And despite the fact that he was emotionally manipulated and abused by Snoke/Palpatine all his life, and is coded as a psychological mess, Kylo is despised. Because he killed Han Solo.
Adam Driver himself admitted he was almost physically sick at the premiere of TFA because he was genuinely terrified of fan reaction when he killed Han Solo.

A six foot three, former marine.....was afraid of a bunch of geeks and nerds ( I'm one, so don't get angry).

I actually find that disturbing.

I don't think I've ever had much hate for him in killing Han Solo, like that.

What I think Anakin has over Ben is a compelling backstory, motive and origin, that I can understand his character based actions in. Ben is, to me, a giant nothing of a character, held together by a pouty face and a cheap romance, and Vader has over Ben, screen presence and a compelling dramatic vibe and a relationship with, I think, the main character that I think makes sense, as developed in the movies.

I think that may be why I don't like Ben. I think he's a weak, empty character, in both structures, not a Vader or an Anakin.

Nowhere in the movies, is it said or shown that Kylo was against the destruction of the hosnian system.

He was actually coded as a mentally ill abuse victim, but never mind.....don't let it get in the way of your hate.

That's not shown and really only barely, I think in theory, implied, in the movies, in TROS.

 

[Sian]

Ah...so you've noticed those pouty lips!

Seriously, as I've mentioned before, I was told on another forum that 'I didn't deserve to call myself a Han Solo fan because I liked Ben Solo.'

Bit old to be told off, methinks. I'll like/dislike who I darn well please.

 

[Sian]

That comic is canon as far as I'm concerned.



That would have made me physically ill. Maybe it's for the best that scene didn't make the cut.

I agree with you there, I suspect it originally was intended to make the audience loathe Kylo and embrace Rey more as JJ wasn't happy that according to the poll on the SW website his character was the one most audiences wanted to see in TROS.

 

[BatLobster]

You know why - it's not because Kylo 'kidnapped and assaulted Rey' (other people's opinions not mine). Or his involvement with a brutal oppressive government. Or his killing Lor San Tekka, and executing the villagers on Jakku.

It's because he killed Han Solo.
Han Solo was everyone's favourite character in the OT. And the moment Kylo/Ben put a lighsabre through his dad's chest that was it. This despite Harrison Ford wanting to kill off the character as far back as ROTJ, or the fact that neither he or Leia were 'model' parents (heroes rarely are) or that genuinely moving scene where Han strokes his son's face, which signalled the start of Kylo's redemption.

Anakin murdered children, became consumed by his lust for power, Force choked his pregnant wife, maimed his son, tortured his daughter, and killed God knows how many people - he was complicit in the destruction of Alderaan, unlike Kylo who was actually against and sickened by the destruction of the Hosnian system - but he DIDN'T KILL HAN SOLO.

Anakin thus remains a 'tragic victim'. And despite the fact that he was emotionally manipulated and abused by Snoke/Palpatine all his life, and is coded as a psychological mess, Kylo is despised. Because he killed Han Solo.
Adam Driver himself admitted he was almost physically sick at the premiere of TFA because he was genuinely terrified of fan reaction when he killed Han Solo.

A six foot three, former marine.....was afraid of a bunch of geeks and nerds ( I'm one, so don't get angry).

I actually find that disturbing.

I mean...some people had nearly 40 years of investment in the character. For a lot of people Han Solo embodied what they originally loved about Star Wars. And it wasn't like Kylo killed him in self defense or in battle. He straight up murders him in cold blood when Han is trying to show him love and bring him back.

It's a great dramatic moment, but I mean it 100% sets the audience up to despise Kylo Ren and give him a changing road to redemption. And forget the fact that Han is a beloved character. The act of patricide itself is extremely dark and tough for people to overlook. And for what? To prove that he was totes dark side? Kylo was an extremely messed up guy.

That said, I do think the moment in TROS with Ben and Han was well-actes and sold his redemption way better than I would've anticipated. Fantastic acting from Adam.

 

[Sian]

I think the person who is truly messed up is JJ Abrams. He decided to make the last of the heroes' bloodline an 'irredeemable' bad guy so everyone would be delighted when he was killed off and replaced with JJ's heroine, a virginal princess in white who could do no wrong. The sequel trilogy should really have been called 'Rise of the Palpatines'.

 

[BatLobster]

I think the person who is truly messed up is JJ Abrams. He decided to make the last of the heroes' bloodline an 'irredeemable' bad guy so everyone would be delighted when he was killed off and replaced with JJ's heroine, a virginal princess in white who could do no wrong. The sequel trilogy should really have been called 'Rise of the Palpatines'.

Don't forget Lawrence Kasdan was heavily involved with TFA too and had a big hand in the creation of Kylo Ren and deciding Han Solo's fate-- a character he's obviously very close to.

I think the behind the scenes story of the ST is more intricate and complex than people tend to acknowledge. Everyone just wants to point the finger at one person to blame (whether that be JJ, Rian Johnson, Kennedy, etc), but it's not always that simple.

 

[Sian]

I actually think much of what is good storywise in TFA comes from Kasdan.
But, I came to one conclusion post TROS - that Abrams wasn't happy that so many people were talking about Kylo instead of Rey; that a poll on the official SW website put him way ahead in the popularity stakes of the general audience, and he took steps to rectify this with TROS.

I never forgot him saying that Kylo's fate at the end of TROS was 'pretty fun' with a big smirk on his face. TROS was his way of giving Kylo fans the finger. And he rubbed it in by making our favourite character a 'life force' donor for his favourite character.

Nothing deeper in it than that.

 

[fan4stic]

I think the person who is truly messed up is JJ Abrams. He decided to make the last of the heroes' bloodline an 'irredeemable' bad guy so everyone would be delighted when he was killed off and replaced with JJ's heroine, a virginal princess in white who could do no wrong. The sequel trilogy should really have been called 'Rise of the Palpatines'.

I don't think that, considering I think Rey is shown to be more flawed in JJ's movies.

I actually think much of what is good storywise in TFA comes from Kasdan.
But, I came to one conclusion post TROS - that Abrams wasn't happy that so many people were talking about Kylo instead of Rey; that a poll on the official SW website put him way ahead in the popularity stakes of the general audience, and he took steps to rectify this with TROS.

I never forgot him saying that Kylo's fate at the end of TROS was 'pretty fun' with a big smirk on his face. TROS was his way of giving Kylo fans the finger. And he rubbed it in by making our favourite character a 'life force' donor for his favourite character.

Nothing deeper in it than that.

So?

 

[BatLobster]

I actually think much of what is good storywise in TFA comes from Kasdan.
But, I came to one conclusion post TROS - that Abrams wasn't happy that so many people were talking about Kylo instead of Rey; that a poll on the official SW website put him way ahead in the popularity stakes of the general audience, and he took steps to rectify this with TROS.

I never forgot him saying that Kylo's fate at the end of TROS was 'pretty fun' with a big smirk on his face. TROS was his way of giving Kylo fans the finger. And he rubbed it in by making our favourite character a 'life force' donor for his favourite character.

Nothing deeper in it than that.

This is all total conjecture. I understand you feel that this is the case, but it doesn't make it true.

By the way, the "smirk" J.J. gave (I'm taking your word for it because I don't remember the interview) could've had entirely to do with the fact that he was being asked leading questions by someone fishing for spoilers and he was trying to give as meaningless an answer as possible. But in any case that is really making a huge leap to use a moment like that to support your theory that J.J. hates the character.

You are going in with an overarching theory and then stretching to find evidence to support it. I get that you're upset about how Kylo's fate was handled, but it's like now we have to assume that every time a director makes a choice we don't agree with it's because they're intentionally trolling us. It's no different than how Fandom Menace reacted to Rian Johnson's treatment of Luke. In both cases, I think it is the wrong approach.

 

[Sian]

I actually think that there is very little comparison between Rian's treatment of Luke and JJ's treatment of Kylo.
Luke had a generous amount of screentime throughout TLJ. Despite the contempt people had for the 'reylo' scenes, Luke was the central focus of the film, and ultimately he was the one who confronted Kylo at the end.
Kylo had much less screen time in TROS than TLJ, and after killing off the Knights of Ren played zero part in killing the 'big bad' Palpatine - instead Rey killed him, after all the Jedi came to her aid (but not Kylo's). Kylo was conveniently down a hole during this time. His appearance to 'give Rey back to the galaxy' was actually an afterthought - the original cut had that as his final scene. Hence no Force ghost and Rey never mentioning his character again post killing granddad.

Fact is, JJ was all for promoting Rey. Every other character took a back seat to her. And it's telling that Disney reset the poll on the official SW website several times after people voted Kylo Ren as the character they most wanted to see.

Abrams wanted to make the last real Skywalker an irredeemable bad guy. Hence the Han Solo killing. He said in an interview he believed Kylo couldn't be redeemed as he'd gone too far, hence the killing of his father. A direct contrast to the message of SW, that it's never too late to turn back from the path of evil. All I want to know is - why? Why did DLF or Abrams or whatever feel the need to kill off all the Skywalkers? They could have set the ST centuries after the OT and focus on new characters. Let the heroes keep their happy ending.

Regarding the interview...I remember it very well. I vividly remember the smirk, because it was the first time I felt a bit uneasy about Kylo's fate. But I dismissed it because 'Star Wars is about hope'.

Boy, was I wrong.

 

[henzINNIT]

Er... campaign?
What campaign?

I said pathetic campaign. All examples drawn from just this page of this thread, and AFTER our conversation:

not because Kylo 'kidnapped and assaulted Rey' ...Or his involvement with a brutal oppressive government....It's because he killed Han Solo.

, I suspect it originally was intended to make the audience loathe Kylo and embrace Rey

He decided to make the last of the heroes' bloodline an 'irredeemable' bad guy so everyone would be delighted when he was killed off and replaced

I never forgot him saying that Kylo's fate at the end of TROS was 'pretty fun' with a big smirk on his face. TROS was his way of giving Kylo fans the finger. And he rubbed it in by making our favourite character a 'life force' donor for his favourite character.

Abrams wasn't happy that so many people were talking about Kylo instead of Rey.

Abrams wanted to make the last real Skywalker an irredeemable bad guy. Hence the Han Solo killing.

all the Jedi came to her aid (but not Kylo's)

Pathetic campaign. I chose those words carefully and stand by them.

It's beyond stretching for evidence. From everything we have gathered from production on episode 9, we know for a fact that Kylo Ren was destined to die a pathetic, loathsome creature. We know JJ changed this to appease people like you, but still you invent delusional theories about his intentions because the film didn't worship Kylo enough anyway.

You constantly assert that he's popular, yet constantly assert that people have it in for him. He's probably the most popular character of the ST but it's not enough for you. You over-empathize with a grown man's nerves about 'killing Han Solo', when the story Driver told is a harmless anecdote about playing a movie villain, while ignoring that most of the rest of the cast were subjected to abuse as well, for far more disgusting reasons.

I clung to this thread long after traffic here died. But you have defeated me. I no longer want to talk about Star Wars on here because you've suffocated the conversation. I'll leave with the only quote of yours that I agree with:

I actually find that disturbing.

Too bloody true.