House of the Dragon House of the Dragon General Discussion Thread (TAG SPOILERS)

[Madam-Shogun]

He's the dog chasing the car? Do you think that will be the story? Where would you have the show go?

I just hope they story doesn't alter from the source material and have the guts to show that both sides are flawed/desperate/conniving screw up. The show seems to have a kinda bias toward Allicent imo.

One thing I’m wondering is… the show seemed to imply early on that the source of Viserys’s ailments is various infections from being constantly stabbed while sitting on the throne (lol). If so, has this been a common occurrence with the Iron Throne? Have a bunch of kings, queens and hands (since they also sit on it sometimes) died from just sitting on the throne for long periods of time?

Apparently it's not just infected cuts but some kinda leprosy. According to the actor.

I'm like you, I'm getting more sympathetic to her all the time.

Because the writers are being manipulative.

 

[blackdragon6]

Also, regarding Otto, I think he's rationalising the ****ty things he's doing. He is taking it for-granted that Lords will rebel against Rhanaeyra, and instead of trying to find a way to talk them down or strengthen Rhanaeyra's claim he is undermining it. Without him pressuring his daughter to spend time with Viserys, Aegon wouldn't have been born at all. Otto (or his brother) just wanted a relative on the throne.

 

[InCali]

I just hope they story doesn't alter from the source material and have the guts to show that both sides are flawed/desperate/conniving screw up. The show seems to have a kinda bias toward Allicent imo.

Interesting. See, I'm not familiar with the source material so deviations won't really bother me. You'll be in the same boat as I am in with RoP WRT feeling some disappointment if they aren't true to the source material. I'm trying really hard to see the latter story as a reimagining of the story not based on the books, but it's kinda hard to do when you are constantly hit in the face with names of characters that are completely and utterly changed from the source material and events that are twisted beyond recognition if you didn't have said names. It's sort of distracting; to say the least.

So do you foresee an Alicent (and friends) v Rhaenyra/Daemon dynamic developing? A three way play? I hadn't really considered either and sorta thought this would really play out between the latter two with Alicent providing a tipping point and growing as a character. The fact that she has a male heir, however, provides some interesting possibilities and she DOES seem to be not quite so naive and, rather, TBH, stupid these days.

 

[squeekness]

I just hope they story doesn't alter from the source material and have the guts to show that both sides are flawed/desperate/conniving screw up. The show seems to have a kinda bias toward Allicent imo.

Apparently it's not just infected cuts but some kinda leprosy. According to the actor.

Because the writers are being manipulative.

Leprosy was the first thing that came to my mind.

 

[Detective Conan]

 

[InCali]

Does anyone have these stats for RoP? I'll poke around, but maybe someone knows off the top of their head?

 

[flickchick85]

Does anyone have these stats for RoP? I'll poke around, but maybe someone knows off the top of their head?

All I’ve seen was that Amazon self-reported that the RoP premiere got 25 million. This sticks out because Amazon never self-reports their viewership, and they haven’t done so again since the premiere. Also, Samba TV did report their numbers (which counts all Smart TV’s with Samba chips in them), and they had 1.8 million views for RoP in the first 4 days compared to HoD’s 4.8 million views in the same time frame, while RoP’s 2nd episode had a bigger drop in Samba viewers as well.

 

[squeekness]

Good.

 

[InCali]

All I’ve seen was that Amazon self-reported that the RoP premiere got 25 million. This sticks out because Amazon never self-reports their viewership, and they haven’t done so again since the premiere. Also, Samba TV did report their numbers (which counts all Smart TV’s with Samba chips in them), and they had 1.8 million views for RoP in the first 4 days compared to HoD’s 4.8 million views in the same time frame, while RoP’s 2nd episode had a bigger drop in Samba viewers as well.

Hmmm....from that, it sounds like people definitely are gravitating (relatively) to HotD. That doesn't surprise me too much as I find the characters much more compelling. It'll be interesting to see the future trends from the reports available to us.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

Interesting. See, I'm not familiar with the source material so deviations won't really bother me. You'll be in the same boat as I am in with RoP WRT feeling some disappointment if they aren't true to the source material. I'm trying really hard to see the latter story as a reimagining of the story not based on the books, but it's kinda hard to do when you are constantly hit in the face with names of characters that are completely and utterly changed from the source material and events that are twisted beyond recognition if you didn't have said names. It's sort of distracting; to say the least.

So do you foresee an Alicent (and friends) v Rhaenyra/Daemon dynamic developing? A three way play? I hadn't really considered either and sorta thought this would really play out between the latter two with Alicent providing a tipping point and growing as a character. The fact that she has a male heir, however, provides some interesting possibilities and she DOES seem to be not quite so naive and, rather, TBH, stupid these days.

I have no idea where they're going storywise, so far they've been pretty close to the source material. It's just the characterizations that's slightly off. Now Allicent is nice NOW as a young woman. That might change when she gets older, and the Civil War pop-off.

 

[blackdragon6]

From what I remember both sides do some pretty cruel **** when the Civil War happen. So don't expect people to stay likeable in the traditional sense lol.

 

[Roose Bolton]

They’ve certainly given Alicent and Criston Cole more motivation and depth than the books suggested, but I think that works considering that the books are written as historical documents with sources that occasionally come into conflict. There’s ambiguity, so I can chalk up any changes as things that were lost to history or in-universe bias.

 

[Weather Witch]

Nice! That's actually a higher average viewership than the previous information seemed to indicate!

Does anyone have these stats for RoP? I'll poke around, but maybe someone knows off the top of their head?

All I’ve seen was that Amazon self-reported that the RoP premiere got 25 million. This sticks out because Amazon never self-reports their viewership, and they haven’t done so again since the premiere. Also, Samba TV did report their numbers (which counts all Smart TV’s with Samba chips in them), and they had 1.8 million views for RoP in the first 4 days compared to HoD’s 4.8 million views in the same time frame, while RoP’s 2nd episode had a bigger drop in Samba viewers as well.

That 25 million was worldwide I'm afraid, whereas the above for HOTD is in the US alone. The main point of comparison is that the original episode of HOTD outperformed ROP by 51% in the US. Though that gap could be smaller now with later episodes and additional delayed viewing. I'm honestly hoping it's closer now since I'm enjoying ROP and don't want it be canceled after season 2. Relying on Amazon's deep pockets tbh.

 

[TheFuture]

Ooof, I just saw a clip of what I assumed is the next episode. Looks like my support for Alicent might be tested to say the least.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Interesting. See, I'm not familiar with the source material so deviations won't really bother me. You'll be in the same boat as I am in with RoP WRT feeling some disappointment if they aren't true to the source material. I'm trying really hard to see the latter story as a reimagining of the story not based on the books, but it's kinda hard to do when you are constantly hit in the face with names of characters that are completely and utterly changed from the source material and events that are twisted beyond recognition if you didn't have said names. It's sort of distracting; to say the least.

So do you foresee an Alicent (and friends) v Rhaenyra/Daemon dynamic developing? A three way play? I hadn't really considered either and sorta thought this would really play out between the latter two with Alicent providing a tipping point and growing as a character. The fact that she has a male heir, however, provides some interesting possibilities and she DOES seem to be not quite so naive and, rather, TBH, stupid these days.

There's some difference in how House of the Dragon relates to the original though since George RR Martin is directly involved in the series and has more influence now than he did in Game of Thrones (especially in the latter seasons where he had none). Whatever changes they end up doing will likely be things that George is fine with for the most part.

 

[Weather Witch]

There's some difference in how House of the Dragon relates to the original though since George RR Martin is directly involved in the series and has more influence now than he did in Game of Thrones (especially in the latter seasons where he had none). Whatever changes they end up doing will likely be things that are fine with George for the most part.

I think it also helps that the book is fundamentally plot driven, while the show is character driven. It's a very different approach to telling the same story.

 

[InCali]

There's some difference in how House of the Dragon relates to the original though since George RR Martin is directly involved in the series and has more influence now than he did in Game of Thrones (especially in the latter seasons where he had none). Whatever changes they end up doing will likely be things that George is fine with for the most part.

Ah....that makes sense. That involvement is something the Tolkien Estate did not (or more likely chose not) to do.

I think it also helps that the book is fundamentally plot driven, while the show is character driven. It's a very different approach to telling the same story.

Interesting. See, to me, that's a change you SHOULD (generally) make when adapting a story of that nature. You can hold (basically) true to the events, but fan fic a bit to enhance the story. This is something the RoP showrunners chose not to do. Because I haven't read the Martin writings about this era, I can't say for sure, but my guess is that using this approach to what was a plot driven narrative with a very, very light character (except for maybe Sauron) driven work like the LotR appendices, was rejected by the RoP showrunners; maybe due to difficulty. Of course, I could be wrong and it was done for other reasons.

Thanks for both responses. They really helped to clarify a couple of aspects of both of the shows.

 

[Weather Witch]

Interesting. See, to me, that's a change you SHOULD (generally) make when adapting a story of that nature. You can hold (basically) true to the events, but fan fic a bit to enhance the story. This is something the RoP showrunners chose not to do. Because I haven't read the Martin writings about this era, I can't say for sure, but my guess is that using this approach to what was a plot driven narrative with a very, very light character (except for maybe Sauron) driven work like the LotR appendices, was rejected by the RoP showrunners; maybe due to difficulty. Of course, I could be wrong and it was done for other reasons.

Just to expand on that a little bit, Martin's writing from this era is very different from the main GOT books as well. It's essentially a history book written by a maester and a jester. Neither know the full truth and more crucially they know very little about the inner-worlds of these people. They describe events to the best of their abilities, report on rumors and accounts, but that's all they can really do. An example from episode 1 that makes the differences quite clear:

Spoiler

The book gives us:

Thus did matters stand in King’s Landing late in the year 105 AC, when Queen Aemma was brought to bed in Maegor’s Holdfast and died whilst giving birth to the son that Viserys Targaryen had desired for so long. The boy (named Baelon, after the king’s father) survived her only by a day, leaving king and court bereft…save perhaps for Prince Daemon, who was observed in a brothel on the Street of Silk, making drunken japes with his highborn cronies about the “heir for a day.”

When word of this got back to the king (legend says that it was the wh*re sitting in Daemon’s lap who informed on him, but evidence suggests it was actually one of his drinking companions, a captain in the gold cloaks eager for advancement), Viserys became livid. His Grace had finally had a surfeit of his ungrateful brother and his ambitions.

That's it. That's all the book tells us.

The show instead dives into the perspectives of different people involved. There is much more emotion and they mine the story for drama. For example, by giving us the perspective of both Viserys and Aemma during this scene. Lingering on how and why she died during childbirth. The books isn't concerned with any that. Hell, "heir for a day" is the only dialogue that is lifted from the books for these scenes. The maester and the jester weren't there for any of those conversations.

The show also makes Daemon a pov character in the brothel, shows Rhaenyra having to step up during the funeral scene they added etc. It lines up with the scenes from the book, but it's much more effective storytelling. Even the fact that Mysaria might be responsible for Otto hearing about "the heir for a day" is something that fans of the show have been wondering about. So the show really mines every word of the text.

 

[InCali]

Just to expand on that a little bit, Martin's writing from this era is very different from the main GOT books as well. It's essentially a history book written by a maester and a jester. Neither know the full truth and more crucially they know very little about the inner-worlds of these people. They describe events to the best of their abilities, report on rumors and accounts, but that's all they can really do. An example from episode 1 that makes the differences quite clear:

Spoiler

The book gives us:

Thus did matters stand in King’s Landing late in the year 105 AC, when Queen Aemma was brought to bed in Maegor’s Holdfast and died whilst giving birth to the son that Viserys Targaryen had desired for so long. The boy (named Baelon, after the king’s father) survived her only by a day, leaving king and court bereft…save perhaps for Prince Daemon, who was observed in a brothel on the Street of Silk, making drunken japes with his highborn cronies about the “heir for a day.”

When word of this got back to the king (legend says that it was the wh*re sitting in Daemon’s lap who informed on him, but evidence suggests it was actually one of his drinking companions, a captain in the gold cloaks eager for advancement), Viserys became livid. His Grace had finally had a surfeit of his ungrateful brother and his ambitions.

That's it. That's all the book tells us.

The show instead dives into the perspectives of different people involved. There is much more emotion and they mine the story for drama. For example, by giving us the perspective of both Viserys and Aemma during this scene. Lingering on how and why she died during childbirth. The books isn't concerned with any that. Hell, "heir for a day" is the only dialogue that is lifted from the books for these scenes. The maester and the jester weren't there for any of those conversations.

The show also makes Daemon a pov character in the brothel, shows Rhaenyra having to step up during the funeral scene they added etc. It lines up with the scenes from the book, but it's much more effective storytelling. Even the fact that Mysaria might be responsible for Otto hearing about "the heir for a day" is something that fans of the show have been wondering about. So the show really mines every word of the text.

Great. Thanks for that. The appendices in LotR takes that form, but with more historical and character accuracy.

 

[Iceman]

House of the Dragon - House of the Dragon SPOILER Discussion (no need to tag spoilers here) | The SuperHeroHype Forums
I created a spoiler discussion thread in case needed. Can discuss all spoilers there without tags even straight after a new episode has come out. Will delete it if it proves unnecessary.

 

[Sawyer]

 

[Weather Witch]

One thing I'm appreciating more and more is how the writers of HOTD trust their audience. Not only are we sometimes left to draw our own conclusions, but the show also avoids the common pitfall of overexplaining things. My favorite example in episode five...

Spoiler

...is how they convey that Strong is the new Hand. Most shows would do one of the following:

1. Show him being chosen (probably fairly boring and not relevant for the wedding episode at all)
2. Dialogue "So Lyonel... now that you are Hand of the King..." (alright, but obvious exposition)
3. Lingering close-up of just the pin (less obvious, but not quite as clever as this show)

Instead, they have him pulling out the handkerchief located near the pin, so our eyes are focused on that part of the screen. It's naturally embedded in the scene and really, really well done.

Hell, even the straight-up exposition about the color green and Old Town is placed at the most impactful moment. If that were communicated to us any earlier it would be foreshadowing. Now it makes us realize at the exact right moment that Alicent is on the warpath.

 

[Weather Witch]

I've been doing a lot of ranting about numbers, so I'll just embed it in spoilers for people who think it's interesting. Tl;dr very positive numbers from Nielsen again.

Spoiler

They only added HBO Max to Nielsen's US weekly streaming rankings a few weeks ago because their market share was historically too low compared to competitors like Netflix. Now, the Nielsen report of the 22-28 Augustus period has a lot of good news.

Game of Thrones was the #1 Streaming Acquired Progam with 909m minutes (3rd overall) and House of Dragon the #3 Acquired Program with 741m minutes (6th overall) watched during this period.

An important note here is that HOTD numbers here include a full week of availability for episode 1, but only the first three hours for episode 2. This is due to when Nielsen reporting closes for the week. Episode one also grabbed 327m minutes in the first three hours last week. Those aren't included in this report.

Game of Thrones scoring higher might seem odd at first, but Nielson's measurement here is minutes viewed. With 73 episodes, there are a lot more minutes of GOT to watch obviously. Same with the vast majority of shows in this overview. Shows that can be binged typically score higher here.

This report next week is where things will get really interesting though. Maybe I'll write a really long post about it again. It could happen.

Nielsen Streaming Top 10: 'House of the Dragon' No. 6, 'Echoes' No. 1 - Variety

 

[KevTravels]

What's the budget per episode compared to Game of Thrones (at its peak)?

 

[Dr.]

What's the budget per episode compared to Game of Thrones (at its peak)?

One article mentioned that Dragon cost "under $20M per episode." Same article also said that GoT started out at $6M per and ended at $15M per.