Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Marvel's Agents of SHIELD 5x22 "The End" Discussion Thread

[raz1337]

You have to remember that in the original timeline, they were never sucked to the future and Fitz never went into cryosleep.

Meaning in the original timeline, they would've went to the diner and then went on their way hiding from the authorities.

The Zephyr was never taken from the military base by Fitz and Hunter. Fitz and Hunter never learned of the Lighthouse or met Enoch. They also never met up with Robin and her mother.

They never came back from the future with the intent of preventing Earth's destruction, so they never would've went to Missouri and caught up with Ruby because they never met Noah after returning to the present. This means the fear dimension never existed in the original timeline.

You have to think about what aspects would've stayed the same had events in the present played out without time travel involved. This leads to another thing, or things: The 3 monoliths in the lighthouse. Where did they come from? They existed in the lighthouse regardless of the time travel.

Now, go back to what originally caused Earth to go boom. What we know is the first blame on Quake, then Talbot, then Talbot absorbing Quake. But, if they never time traveled with the intent to stop the destruction or the loop, it isn't necessarily Talbot or Quake that caused it. The time travel changed their actions from the original timeline, such as Yo-Yo killing Ruby. Hale going rogue and causing the attack that sparked Talbot getting in the machine was caused by Ruby's death.

Next, in the original timeline, who got everyone to the lighthouse? Does the last of humanity in the lighthouse consist of the residents of River's End? Also, They followed tunnels to River's End in the midseason premiere, so where were those tunnels in the future? Was River's End on the part of Earth that was decimated?

 

[nypinta]

We don't know if in the original timeline they wouldn't have met Enoch. For all we know in the original Enoch shows up when they're at the diner and instead of sending them forward time just helps them hide from Hale. She's already in contact with the Confederacy and wants to turn Ruby into the Destroyer of Worlds, knows who Talbot is, knows who Coulson and Daisy are, and could have taken Talbot the same as she did this time, causing the entire thing to happen the way it did minus the loop. He got involved because Robin predicted an extinction event, and that caused him to get involved. In fact, it's likely that they've always gone forward in time, every timeline. The only difference is this time they tried the right thing to stop Talbot from absorbing Daisy's power and Fitz being in cryosleep isn't necessary, except it's the one thing that saves him from being completely dead.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

Remember Robin is Inhuman and working in the supernatural. So she gives a "true" prophecy of the original timeline the extinction level event which made it possible for Enoch to act.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

Best episode of the show in a while. I thought they did a great job of wrapping the series up. It almost makes me wish there wasn’t more coming. I really can’t imagine where they go from here.

 

[The Infernal]

I thought the finale was crap. Underwhelming, forced and depressing. Not sure where SHIELD goes from here. Not sure I could be convinced to continue at this stage.

 

[raz1337]

Robin said "something changed" right after Talbot and Daisy hit the ground. It was also the earthquake caused by their impact that caused Fitz' death.

So, what changed?

These are the events:

• Daisy yelling at Coulson to take the serum is the same as in the future they went to.
• Daisy runs up to Talbot, uses her powers to knock him over.
• Daisy talks to Talbot about being a villain, then helps him up.
• Daisy tells him he's supposed to be a hero, and he says he heard the same thing from others, and disagrees with her.
• Daisy tries to attack him with her powers, but he stops her, pulls her in, then lifts off.
• Talbot and Daisy land, causing the earthquake that knocks the rubble on Fitz.
• Talbot tries to absorb Daisy.
• Robin says something has changed.
• Daisy takes the serum, knocking over Talbot, then knocks Talbot into outer space.
• Fitz dies.

So, in the past of the future they went to in the first half of the season, was it only Talbot by himself that did it? Or did something else happen that caused Talbot to absorb Daisy?

 

[Panacea]

I assume the difference this time around was the Coulson - aided by Yo-Yo's knowledge from the future - refused to allow himself to be healed and made sure Daisy had the serum to defeat Graviton instead.

 

[trich19045]

...

 

[EarthShaker]

Robin said "something changed" right after Talbot and Daisy hit the ground. It was also the earthquake caused by their impact that caused Fitz' death.

So, what changed?

These are the events:

• Daisy yelling at Coulson to take the serum is the same as in the future they went to.
• Daisy runs up to Talbot, uses her powers to knock him over.
• Daisy talks to Talbot about being a villain, then helps him up.
• Daisy tells him he's supposed to be a hero, and he says he heard the same thing from others, and disagrees with her.
• Daisy tries to attack him with her powers, but he stops her, pulls her in, then lifts off.
• Talbot and Daisy land, causing the earthquake that knocks the rubble on Fitz.
• Talbot tries to absorb Daisy.
• Robin says something has changed.
• Daisy takes the serum, knocking over Talbot, then knocks Talbot into outer space.
• Fitz dies.

So, in the past of the future they went to in the first half of the season, was it only Talbot by himself that did it? Or did something else happen that caused Talbot to absorb Daisy?

what changed is Fits dying. or maybe not. all depends if jemma is pregnant..

 

[SomeOldGuy]

Robin said "something changed" right after Talbot and Daisy hit the ground. It was also the earthquake caused by their impact that caused Fitz' death.

So, what changed?

These are the events:

• Daisy yelling at Coulson to take the serum is the same as in the future they went to.
• Daisy runs up to Talbot, uses her powers to knock him over.
• Daisy talks to Talbot about being a villain, then helps him up.
• Daisy tells him he's supposed to be a hero, and he says he heard the same thing from others, and disagrees with her.
• Daisy tries to attack him with her powers, but he stops her, pulls her in, then lifts off.
• Talbot and Daisy land, causing the earthquake that knocks the rubble on Fitz.
• Talbot tries to absorb Daisy.
• Robin says something has changed.
• Daisy takes the serum, knocking over Talbot, then knocks Talbot into outer space.
• Fitz dies.

So, in the past of the future they went to in the first half of the season, was it only Talbot by himself that did it? Or did something else happen that caused Talbot to absorb Daisy?

My $0.02: in the past from the first half of the season, both Coulson and Daisy are dead, and so apparently is Talbot/Graviton. This suggests that the choice made was to infuse the centipede serene with odium, then have Daisy inject herself with it and be absorbed by Talbot. In that scenario the odium-boosted combo of Quake and Graviton cracks the planet and dies, because the odium kills the imbiber. In the new past, Daisy uses the regular centipede serum to boost her strength temporarily, avoid being absorbed, and blows Talbot into orbit.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That's my thought process as well.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

I assume the difference this time around was the Coulson - aided by Yo-Yo's knowledge from the future - refused to allow himself to be healed and made sure Daisy had the serum to defeat Graviton instead.

This is what changed everything to my knowledge.

 

[nypinta]

Ditto.

And once that moment changed the timeline, Fitz was no longer "invincible" as Simmons and Yo Yo believed, because they broke the loop.

I don't think in previous timelines Daisy ever took the Odium, or they even tried to give it to Talbot. I think they always tried to save Coulson, and then Daisy confronted Talbot with only her own natural powers. He then absorbed her, because she didn't have the strength to push him off, and he then destroyed the Earth with the combined powers.

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

Say future Elena only knew of the two plans and every time team SHIELD ignored Coulson's wishes and treated him. Somehow Coulson got the ideal to slip the Centipede to Daisy this time through the loop. Besides Yo-yo and Coulson getting something from her I don't know why this time Daisy got the shot.

 

[raz1337]

So, basically in the past of the future they went to, the serum was given to Coulson, resulting in Daisy being absorbed by Talbot and the Earth going boom.

But, were those flashbacks we saw in the first half of the season from the original timeline or the past of the future they went to?

Sounds like there are 4 timelines:

Original -> Use monolith to bring agents

In 2091, they travel back and create 2nd timeline. In the 2nd timeline, they try to save Coulson and fail. In the 2nd timeline, they pull the agents to the future and then they go back, creating a third timeline.

In the third timeline, the same happens as in the 2nd. This is the Yo-Yo that lived to 2091 in the show. She had gone forward, then back, failed and lived to 2091, resulting in her wanting the loop to end. They then pull agents from the 4th timeline that we know to this future of the 3rd timeline.

So, basically:

Timeline 1 -> Earth boom -> Agents pulled from timeline 2 to 2091
Timeline 2 agents go back to present of TL 2 -> Earth boom -> Agents pulled from timeline 3 to 2091
Timeline 3 agents go back to present of TL 3 -> Earth boom -> Agents pulled from timeline 4 (Our agents) to 2091
Timeline 4 agents (Our agents) return to present and stop Earth from going boom

Future Yo-Yo is in timeline 3. Our agents are timeline 4 agents in timeline 3's future.

 

[KingCheops]

Except that we don't know exactly how many times they've done the loop. But otherwise yes.

Spoiler

Watch ep 7 of Star Trek Discovery for a very good example of how this works -- Yo-yo is Lt. Stamets and Lt. Burnham in one.

Edit: sorry got the Star Trek Discovery reference under spoilers.

 

[nypinta]

That does make me wonder if Robin drew only 6 of them being sent to the future, leaving Fitz behind, on purpose so that there would be a spare... She might not even have realized what she was doing, because it doesn't seem like she had any control over what she saw or drew. She just did. And maybe I wonder if she wasn't as messed up by her visions as she was because she was inundated with so many time loops, and maybe now she'll be better, and less laconic, because they're in just the one and have prevented all future loops.

 

[C. Lee]

Finally got to see the last few episodes today. I'm sad that Fitz died (yes, I know there is talk of finding ways to bring him back next season, but when it was write and filmed they weren't planning on 6th season...so he was dead)....sad that Coulson is going off to die (would have been nice to see him and May go off to spend years together)....sad that they put Mack in charge because he became a wimp in the last couple of seasons.

 

[Mike Murdock]

The solution to Fitz's death is addressed in the episode. This isn't something they figured out later, the fact that he's not entirely dead is directly addressed.

 

[C. Lee]

The solution to Fitz's death is addressed in the episode. This isn't something they figured out later, the fact that he's not entirely dead is directly addressed.

Will have to watch it again tomorrow then....my daughter distracted me a couple of times while I was watching it....must have missed it.

 

[Mike Murdock]

During the eulogy scene, they say that Fitz is out in space and will be confused when Simmons wakes him up.

 

[C. Lee]

Yeah, absolutely missed that.

 

[voyzovrezon]

I'm late to the party, but OMG, what a confusing mess. If this, then maybe that, but not that because of this...

The first season was the best. This last one was horrible. I almost gave up on season 4 until the framework, which made it interesting. I was hoping the team getting back to the past would save season 5. NOPE. Just more ridiculous and confusing.

 

[optimus2861]

Sounds like there are 4 timelines:

Original -> Use monolith to bring agents

In 2091, they travel back and create 2nd timeline. In the 2nd timeline, they try to save Coulson and fail. In the 2nd timeline, they pull the agents to the future and then they go back, creating a third timeline.

In the third timeline, the same happens as in the 2nd. This is the Yo-Yo that lived to 2091 in the show. She had gone forward, then back, failed and lived to 2091, resulting in her wanting the loop to end. They then pull agents from the 4th timeline that we know to this future of the 3rd timeline.

So, basically:

Timeline 1 -> Earth boom -> Agents pulled from timeline 2 to 2091
Timeline 2 agents go back to present of TL 2 -> Earth boom -> Agents pulled from timeline 3 to 2091
Timeline 3 agents go back to present of TL 3 -> Earth boom -> Agents pulled from timeline 4 (Our agents) to 2091
Timeline 4 agents (Our agents) return to present and stop Earth from going boom

Future Yo-Yo is in timeline 3. Our agents are timeline 4 agents in timeline 3's future.

Well... no. That's not how I'd interpret it. You have to understand that it was (key word, 'was') an entirely stable closed time loop. No 'timelines'. There was a single timeline, akin to your timeline 2/3, repeating indefinitely. The agents were pulled into 2091, learned of Earth's fate, went back to 2017 (after essentially saving humanity in 2091 too, don't forget), tried to prevent Earth's destruction, failed to do so and even in some ways brought it about, rinse & repeat. Fitz was adamant, and had been proven right earlier in the series, that history could not be changed, that the 'pattern' was always there, and it was playing out exactly that way right up until it didn't.

This kind of time-travel writing, to me anyway, is far more satisfying storytelling than the time-travel history-changing soup we've been left with. Maybe because I was a big fan of Gargoyles back in the day and that was always how they did it, no exceptions, ever. Makes for tight, consistent narratives, and the writers are denied the "Ha! History change!" card as a way of getting out of a storytelling jam.

Of course this time-travel mechanic can't coexist with the Time Stone or the Quantum Realm and there's no way the show could write such a closed loop that ends with Earth's destruction, so the mechanic had to go. Pity. It was a damn good, if tragic, story that the showrunners had conceived.

 

[melwer]

AoS is based on interesting but unreal ideas:
1) Inhumans: unreal but maybe possible in a distant future - some proof: the army tried to create "supersoldiers"
2) Teleportation: unreal but maybe... - some proof: there is streaming of data in IT
3) Detailed framework where you can die: unreal but maybe possible in a distant future - some proof: virtual reality
4) Time travel: unreal and maybe impossible in a distant future - no proof

Time travel is the most difficult idea to comprehend. Maybe if it were possible to create images of every person and creature on Earth and nearby.... with every physical laws explained then... The concept of perfect simulations would be possible with "future" simulations as well but it's all vague... All in all, the idea of time travel is too much to bear.

Aos is also based on relationships.
1) Inhumas: Daisy addicted to Hive (like falling in love based on physical attraction).
2) Teleportation: Will and Jemma (creative way to show distance as a dangerous factor)
3) Framework: Mack having a daughter. Framework was also an excellent idea to show Fitz's "background". Mack's and Coulson's as well.
4) Time travel: Yo-yo loses her temper. She breaks. Mack fell in love with righteous yo-yo - what now?

In my opinion, the most beautiful scene was when Deathlock talked with Coulson about everything: Quake as a daughter ,Shield as a family and adventures that are only dreaming. It was the most possible explanation of the whole AoS and the viewer should be able to make the choice whether these adventures are invented or not.
Therefore, I can't see Season 6 without Coulson. Flashbacks with younger Coulson and younger May? Probably not because there will be no yo-yo, Mack and Jemma. But "without Coulson there is no shield" and I would rather see young Coulson more often than the rest of the crew.

At least give Mack a good sense of humour, please. He used to laugh in the beginning.