MCU X-Men - Part 2

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]538307[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]537435[/split]

 

[Marvel united]

We have no reason to think that there WEREN'T known mutants who were ordered to register during Civil War. And did the Sokovia Accords even apply to individuals that weren't actually using their powers?

As for the mind wipe, that's a well-established part of Xavier's powers. And the ethical implications of it limits the extent to which he uses it.

Yeah, it applied to all enhanced individuals. That would definitely include mutants.

And the mind wipe idea would be the laziest way out of this whole thing and it will become a major problem if Xavier can take care of any threat the X-Men face with his powers. The "it's not ethical" excuse is not going to fly when the X-Men are being beaten to near death by a villain and Xavier refuses to step in.

I don't get why it's a problem. Just start the X-Men franchise off from the begining in the MCU, trying to do a legacy "passing of the torch" with a 30 year old team right from bat doesn't work for a plethora of reasons. Let the X-Men grow up naturally instead of skipping 15 years of development.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Yeah, it applied to all enhanced individuals. That would definitely include mutants.

And the mind wipe idea would be the laziest way out of this whole thing and it will become a major problem if Xavier can take care of any threat the X-Men face with his powers. The "it's not ethical" excuse is not going to fly when the X-Men are being beaten to near death by a villain and Xavier refuses to step in.

I don't get why it's a problem. Just start the X-Men franchise off from the begining in the MCU, trying to do a legacy "passing of the torch" with a 30 year old team right from bat doesn't work for a plethora of reasons. Let the X-Men grow up naturally instead of skipping 15 years of development.

The ethics argument has worked just fine in the comics, it will work just fine on screen. Literally all of Xavier's powers could stop any fight if he REALLY wanted to, short of someone with a psychic block like Juggernaut or Magneto. And that has never been an issue before.

We've already seen the story of Xavier starting from scratch. We've already seen the 05 as kids. And there are so many great mutants that still haven't gotten a chance to shine. Most of the remaining great stories don't work with starting from scratch. And as we've seen with Homecoming, Marvel has no intentions of retreading old territory.

 

[MasterCat]

I don't get why it's a problem. Just start the X-Men franchise off from the begining in the MCU, trying to do a legacy "passing of the torch" with a 30 year old team right from bat doesn't work for a plethora of reasons. Let the X-Men grow up naturally instead of skipping 15 years of development.

Also, does anyone sincerely believe "Wanda Maximoff isn't a mutant" won't be overturned the second a Disney purchase of FOX gets past the federal government? She's likely only 18 in Infinity War, based on how we have to juggle her being called a child in Civil War with being in a romantic relationship two years later. The demand for mature X-Men means you have to imagine a meeting where a 30-year-old X-Man sees her for the first time when she's 20 and says "Hi, you're a mutant like us! We have a school where Professor Xavier teaches people like us how to safely use our powers shortly after they manifest around the beginning of high school age! We didn't contact you when yours did because... look, the Juggernaut!"

 

[Havok83]

Also, does anyone sincerely believe "Wanda Maximoff isn't a mutant" won't be overturned the second a Disney purchase of FOX gets past the federal government? She's likely only 18 in Infinity War, based on how we have to juggle her being called a child in Civil War with being in a romantic relationship two years later. The demand for mature X-Men means you have to imagine a meeting where a 30-year-old X-Man sees her for the first time when she's 20 and says "Hi, you're a mutant like us! We have a school where Professor Xavier teaches people like us how to safely use our powers shortly after they manifest around the beginning of high school age! We didn't contact you when yours did because... look, the Juggernaut!"

She was an Avenger. Its easy enough to just assume Xavier wouldnt have approached her bc she was getting proper training from within them and trying to recruit her would just draw unnecessary attention to him

 

[psylockolussus]

Instead of developing Wanda as a mutant, they could just use Polaris who hasn't appeared in a film yet.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Also, does anyone sincerely believe "Wanda Maximoff isn't a mutant" won't be overturned the second a Disney purchase of FOX gets past the federal government? She's likely only 18 in Infinity War, based on how we have to juggle her being called a child in Civil War with being in a romantic relationship two years later. The demand for mature X-Men means you have to imagine a meeting where a 30-year-old X-Man sees her for the first time when she's 20 and says "Hi, you're a mutant like us! We have a school where Professor Xavier teaches people like us how to safely use our powers shortly after they manifest around the beginning of high school age! We didn't contact you when yours did because... look, the Juggernaut!"

Except she is quite explicitly NOT A MUTANT in the MCU. The sooner fans get over this the better. She and Pietro got their powers from the Mind Stone, that is literally a driving plot point in Infinity War, that her powers are linked to the Mind Stone. They aren't going to retcon her and it would gain them nothing and be pointlessly confusing if they did. Like psylockolussus said, they should just use Polaris if they want Magneto to have a kid.

 

[MasterCat]

Except she is quite explicitly NOT A MUTANT in the MCU. The sooner fans get over this the better.

You are correct for reasons of intellectual property law.

She and Pietro got their powers from the Mind Stone, that is literally a driving plot point in Infinity War, that her powers are linked to the Mind Stone. They aren't going to retcon her and it would gain them nothing and be pointlessly confusing if they did.

It's not contradicting any continuity to say "Infinity radiation activated gene X in your body." Then the reason teenage mutants start appearing can be attributed to Infinity radiation during the Second Alien Invasion.
What explains the sudden increase in mutants if the O5 manifested powers 3 years before Iron Man? Too late to be "Children of the Atom", too early to be an MCU MacGuffin.

 

[Marvel united]

The ethics argument has worked just fine in the comics, it will work just fine on screen. Literally all of Xavier's powers could stop any fight if he REALLY wanted to, short of someone with a psychic block like Juggernaut or Magneto. And that has never been an issue before.

There's an old saying "some things that work in the comics, don't work in the movie" and that saying applies here. That excuse is not going to fly in the MCU. There's a reason why some characters are nerfed from the comics. Comic Charles is borderline omega level mutant. And say, they decided to go that route. Then they have to go through the trouble of making sure every villain they face has a mind block from Charles.

We've already seen the story of Xavier starting from scratch. We've already seen the 05 as kids. And there are so many great mutants that still haven't gotten a chance to shine. Most of the remaining great stories don't work with starting from scratch. And as we've seen with Homecoming, Marvel has no intentions of retreading old territory.

We've already seen the X-Men as experienced veterans too. In 4 movies, 5 counting upcoming Dark Phoenix. You know what Homecoming didn't do? Start Peter Parker off 14 years into being a hero. He was the youngest he had ever been in a movie and he was a ROOKIE. He wasn't a 30 year old science teacher in his first movie. So using Homecoming as an example, they'd start the X-Men off from the beginning. We still have yet to see Cyclops, Jean or Storm's backstories, Singer never delved into them, that would be the best way to mine something new while yes, using a couple of new members. As opposed to starting with a 30 year old team AGAIN and trying to do mental gymnastics on the audience to try and explain why and how they've been around for so long with nobody noticing. How the villains and fights have been happining with noboody knowing.

 

[MasterCat]

Also, none of the "29-year-old O5" partisans have provided an explanation "why did mutants start appearing more than one at a time three years before Iron Man?" The existing movies went with the "Children of the Atom" explanation for mutant numbers. The MCU could use Infinity radiation if the X-Men are 15-year-olds. If their demands were met, the reason would be ???

 

[Captain Marvel]

Also, none of the "29-year-old O5" partisans have provided an explanation "why did mutants start appearing more than one at a time three years before Iron Man?"

Why not? That's the way it's always been in the comics. For many, many years mutant births were very rare, and then with each generation, there were more and more mutant births, until finally there was an explosion of mutant births.

The existing movies went with the "Children of the Atom" explanation for mutant numbers. The MCU could use Infinity radiation if the X-Men are 15-year-olds. If their demands were met, the reason would be ???

Then how would you explain the existence of mutants like Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister, Azazel, or even Magneto, who predate Infinity War? There's no need to tie the existence of mutants in with the Infinity Gauntlet, and making that a requirement would actually be a limiting factor which would remove some of the greatest characters from the franchise, as well as hampering the development of other characters, like Xavier, who needs decades of living with his mutant power to become the character which he is.

 

[Captain Marvel]

FYI: The Sokovian Accords applied to the Avengers and only to the Avengers. So it wouldn't affect Luke Cage (Who's very public with his powers, and yet nobody's beating down his door to force him to sign the Sokovian Accords), it wouldn't affect Daredevil, and it wouldn't affect any mutants.

"The Sokovia Accords. Approved by 117 countries, it states that the Avengers shall no longer be a private organization. Instead, they'll operate under the supervision of a United Nations panel, only when and if that panel deems it necessary."
- Thaddeus Ross to the Avengers

 

[MasterCat]

Why not? That's the way it's always been in the comics. For many, many years mutant births were very rare, and then with each generation, there were more and more mutant births, until finally there was an explosion of mutant births.

Well, that's not the way it's always been in the comics. Stan Lee scripted the X-Men with references to nuclear power triggering their mutations. At some point that had to be forgotten because of sliding time, but First Class picked it back up and was a better, more interesting film for it.

As for Apocalypse, Logan, Magneto and Xavier? That's less than one every generation. The idea is that the X-gene existed but was very rarely activated until Time X (traditionally the atomic age).

 

[Marvel united]

Also, none of the "29-year-old O5" partisans have provided an explanation "why did mutants start appearing more than one at a time three years before Iron Man?" The existing movies went with the "Children of the Atom" explanation for mutant numbers. The MCU could use Infinity radiation if the X-Men are 15-year-olds. If their demands were met, the reason would be ???

This is what I've been saying for the longest time. "Children of the Atom" can be adapted to mean something else. Most likely from the fallout of Infinity War

 

[Creo]

FYI: The Sokovian Accords applied to the Avengers and only to the Avengers. So it wouldn't affect Luke Cage (Who's very public with his powers, and yet nobody's beating down his door to force him to sign the Sokovian Accords), it wouldn't affect Daredevil, and it wouldn't affect any mutants.

That's only partially accurate. Any enhanced individual who wants to use their abilities in any way for combat, defense, private organizations, etc must register. AoS goes into it pretty deep.

 

[Creo]

This whole discussion really makes me hope Marvel keeps the mutants separate. There's too many to develop well in a series that, if treated like the rest, will only get a movie every 3-4 years. If they get more frequent movies, then they'd encroach on slots for the other series.

Then we start running into the issue of spans of several years in between movies and the MCU happening roughly in real time.

Seems easier to put them under the Marvel Studios helm, but keep it separate.

 

[Shikamaru]

This whole discussion really makes me hope Marvel keeps the mutants separate. There's too many to develop well in a series that, if treated like the rest, will only get a movie every 3-4 years. If they get more frequent movies, then they'd encroach on slots for the other series.

Then we start running into the issue of spans of several years in between movies and the MCU happening roughly in real time.

Seems easier to put them under the Marvel Studios helm, but keep it separate.

I think the whole "everything is connected" theme will go away after Phase 3. It was easy to do it till now because all of their solo films were about an Avenger or a character tied to them via Infinity Stones (Dr. Strange, Guardians), but after Phase 3 that MacGuffin will be gone and we started seeing solo films of characters that aren't Avengers. We'll still see characters crossover but I feel it will be more like the comics where every title has its own narrative with occasional events and guest-stars. I think that's what Feige is talking about when he said the phase model might go away soon.

 

[Iceman]

This whole discussion really makes me hope Marvel keeps the mutants separate. There's too many to develop well in a series that, if treated like the rest, will only get a movie every 3-4 years. If they get more frequent movies, then they'd encroach on slots for the other series.

Then we start running into the issue of spans of several years in between movies and the MCU happening roughly in real time.

Seems easier to put them under the Marvel Studios helm, but keep it separate.

They can make more films whether it's kept separate or not. Keeping them separate is a ..separate choice.

 

[Creo]

They can make more films whether it's kept separate or not. Keeping them separate is a ..separate choice.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here.

 

[Creo]

I think the whole "everything is connected" theme will go away after Phase 3. It was easy to do it till now because all of their solo films were about an Avenger or a character tied to them via Infinity Stones (Dr. Strange, Guardians), but after Phase 3 that MacGuffin will be gone and we started seeing solo films of characters that aren't Avengers. We'll still see characters crossover but I feel it will be more like the comics where every title has its own narrative with occasional events and guest-stars. I think that's what Feige is talking about when he said the phase model might go away soon.

Unless they get rid of it entirely, it's still an issue. They've skirted around the issue of heroes not being in other characters movies tus far, and it's somewhat easy to explain. It'll get substantially more difficult if they introduce another 30+ characters to the movies, or to explain why the Avengers aren't around to fight Apocalypse or Magnet3.

 

[Iceman]

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here.

If they'd decided to keep a bunch of their characters separate from each other to date rather than having them connected it wouldn't mean they could have/would have made more films. Depending on budget, resources and priorities, they can choose to make as many X-Men films as they want. Whether to make them connected is then another (separate) decision that they can make without necessarily impacting the first decision.

 

[Creo]

If they'd decided to keep a bunch of their characters separate from each other to date rather than having them connected it wouldn't mean they could have/would have made more films. Depending on budget, resources and priorities, they can choose to make as many X-Men films as they want. Whether to make them connected is then another (separate) decision that they can make without necessarily impacting the first decision.

And that's one of my issue with it. More X-men films means fewer other films in the MCU. They're already encroaching on their own films with Star Wars, animation, and Pixar. Keeping them connected to the MCU means gaps in time (potentiality years), potentially less developed characters, and dancing around why a world that suddenly has thousands of mutants doesn't always have mutants to fight the bad guys.

I'd love for Marvel to have them, but I think they'd get better treatment by staying outside of the MCU proper.

 

[Jordacar]

We're definitely gonna see a shift in the MCU's alignment soon. It's been SHIELD in one corner, Netflix in the other, and the movies on top.

We've got Cloak & Dagger coming up, and New Warriors after that. Luke Cage, Daredevil, and Iron Fist (and hell, maybe Punisher) will all air their next seasons before Avengers 4. I'm not expecting [BLACKOUT]half the Netflix casts to disintegrate or anything[/BLACKOUT], (but it'd be a hoot), but I feel like 3 seasons would be plenty for the lot of them.

I'm crossing my fingers that they somehow utilize a TV component for both the X-Men and the FF, to take advantage of the more serialized and episodic aspects of their classic stories. I mean, if they're gonna change up how they present the story, might they do it for the First Family AND/OR the Merry Mutants?

Yes, Inhumans really s*** the bed in that respect, but I like to think they learned a lot of lessons there in what not to do. Really all the shows have been pretty experimental (none more than SHIELD I deem), so I look forward to what lessons they apply to their A-listers coming home at last to join the fray.

 

[TheVileOne]

The Accord apply to more to the Avengers. Yo-Yo signed the Accords as well and opted in.

It was a framework for registration of enhanced individuals, not just the Avengers.