The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes - The ANIMATED SERIES is now set for 2011

[TheVileOne]

Sony hardly OWNS Spider-man. They've licensed out Spider-man. There's a difference. They do not retain full ownership of the character.

I'm not buying the Wolverine thing, since he's sharing a DVD with Hulk and Thor. Two Avengers characters .

Dread, keep something in mind. 20th Century Fox has nothing to do with Wolverine and The X-men. A show where Nick Fury, Scarlett Witch, Quicksilver, X-men, Hulk, et al all appear in.

 

[Dread]

Sony hardly OWNS Spider-man. They've licensed out Spider-man. There's a difference. They do not retain full ownership of the character.

I'm not buying the Wolverine thing, since he's sharing a DVD with Hulk and Thor. Two Avengers characters .

Dread, keep something in mind. 20th Century Fox has nothing to do with Wolverine and The X-men. A show where Nick Fury, Scarlett Witch, Quicksilver, X-men, Hulk, et al all appear in.

You're right, "license" and "own" are not the same. But what I meant is that if you want to put Spider-Man in a movie or a TV show, you have to go through Sony. Much as with other characters that are licensed to other companies, they usually are involved in the multi-media products. DTV's and video games involve other companies. For example, Capcom lost the rights to Marvel and thus can't re-release any of their VS. games commercially, despite how incredibly popular they still are, especially MARVEL VS. CAPCOM 2. The video game rights to Marvel involve other companies.

Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver appeared in X-MEN EVOLUTION starting in 2000-2001. Them being in another X-Men show is basic. Hulk and Nick Fury are characters that aren't as strictly guarded by companies that licensed them.

Ironically, the availability of Wanda may depend on how successful W&TXM is in the United States. If a second or even third season are commissioned by NickToons, the result may mean she can't be in an Avengers show unless it is also on that same network. Networks rarely share characters. Hence why Wolverine couldn't show up in the 90's Hulk show, because Logan was on FoxKids and Hulk was on UPN, even though both shows ran on different days and in no way competed in terms of ratings (INCREDIBLE HULK ran on Sunday mornings). The problem is the episodes for A:EGH can't wait until 2010 or so to be written; the writing on the episodes is happening now. If Wanda's rights are not sorted out within a year or less, don't expect her within the first 26 episodes.

WB owns all of the DC characters, and yet not even they could get some characters like Blue Beetle onto JLU. Capt. Marvel's appearance was a near miracle, and that was a single episode.

Rights to characters are a legal mess that often stifles creativity; I am simply raising the question and concern about Wanda here.

In terms of the mainstream audience, for 8 years all they know her as is Magneto's daughter on the Brotherhood. A network suit may not want to "confuse" them (much as the Joker appearing in JLU and THE BATMAN at once would "confuse" someone).

You have to recall that the fact that hostile companies to Marvel, Warner Bros. and Disney, control or influence most of the networks where cartoons air has made getting shows to TV a lot harder than it was last century, which is why Marvel, in desperation, is giving networks like NickToons and even a few years back, MTV a try. Look how CN killed FF:WGH (which, while we are on the topic, better than some of the drivel on the network if given a chance).

I suppose they could give Vision a parental relationship with Hank and Jan, as they are his grandparents in a sense, which would be all well and good. But Wanda and Vision's relationship has a lot of potential for good storytelling.

Oh, I agree. That is why it is a concern. "Big" characters like Cap, Iron Man, Thor, and now Hulk may be the names everyone knows, but it was the secondary characters on Avengers, the ones who could actually be effected big time in that book due to a lack of solo's, that usually bore the brunt of the action, like Pym, Wasp, Vision, Hawkeye, and yes, Scarlet Witch. It would be a shame to lose all potential of that over network pissing contests. But it is also a real reality that fans may have to face.

 

[Syncos]

The problem is that Sony has licencing for Spider-Man animation, as well. Sony is atleast co-producing (and distributing) spectacular spider-man. Spider-Man is out of luck when it comes to crossing over.

 

[Dread]

The issue was Wanda & Quicksilver, not Spider-Man. He was just an example.

Rumor is that WOLVERINE & THE X-MEN has been picked up for a second season, even before debuting on NickToons. Unless AVENGERS:EMH is also on NickToons, the odds of Wanda being allowed on two competing networks is exactly zero.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are as much Avengers characters as X-characters. I wonder if they're even included in the licensing for Fox.

 

[IronLion]

The Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are as much Avengers characters as X-characters. I wonder if they're even included in the licensing for Fox.

i would say moreso. quicksilver and scarlet witch have become, imo, more important in the marvel world while in the avengers. they seem to have become more important. in the x-world, as mentioned earlier, they are seen as magnetos kids, villains, but while over in the avengers, they have had some great stories, scarlet witch in particular.

 

[Dread]

The Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are as much Avengers characters as X-characters. I wonder if they're even included in the licensing for Fox.

i would say moreso. quicksilver and scarlet witch have become, imo, more important in the marvel world while in the avengers. they seem to have become more important. in the x-world, as mentioned earlier, they are seen as magnetos kids, villains, but while over in the avengers, they have had some great stories, scarlet witch in particular.

While FOX may not have listed the twins specifically by name, I believe Pietro Maximoff's name was one of the ones listed in computer files Mystique (as Deathstrike) looked through in X2.

As I have said, as an ideal, this should not be dilemma. As is known and as you two and others have stated, the Maximoff twins have had a long and storied history with the Avengers franchise; moreso than with the X-Men historically.

However, the world of network TV rights is a messy one. Kingpin originally debuted in ASM and was a Spider-Man foil for many years before latching onto Daredevil. He may be best known these days for his rivalry with DD, but even as recently as BACK IN BLACK, Kingpin remained involved with Spider-Man. Ultimate Spider-Man features Kingpin often. Yet the writers & producers of SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN were not allowed to use Kingpin in the show; Greg Wiesman stated this specifically in interviews. In practice, this forced them to revamp Tombstone/Big Man and frankly they've done a terrific job. But the "embargo" stands. Historically it makes no sense, but it was network reality.

Such a restriction could occur with Wanda & Pietro, especially if WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN continues to air new episodes by 2011. Even if both air on NickToons, executives may not want to offer "two" versions of similar characters. Note that when Wanda appeared in AVENGERS: UTS in 1999 on FoxKids, her prior appearances in X-MEN had her as a member of X-Factor, which was a government sanctioned mutant superhero team; therefore, it didn't seem as jarring to see her as an Avenger a year after X-MEN ended (as it was dated in the "near future").

Frankly if the twins are not allowed on AVENGERS: EGH, it is a problem of various network's own making, having produced two cartoons in a row that present the twins as Magneto's terrorist tots. What they call a self fulfilling prophecy.

It would be a shame of 1999's A:UTS travesty remains the first and only adaptation of the Vision/Wanda/Wonder Man triangle. Vision & Wanda were among the Avengers most well known and dramatic couplings before DISASSEMBLED in 2004 rendered it worthless.

 

[The Question]

The way I could see Wanda and Pietro being on The Avengers, if both shows are on Nick, is if at some point in X-Men they leave the brotherhood, and then are brought into The Avengers a season or two in, where they try to join The Avengers to gain amnesty for their crimes (which is what they did in the comics anyway).

 

[Jordacar]

In between leaving the brotherhood and joining the Avengers, the pair could do some high-class crime busting on their own to build up their hero cred.

 

[Dread]

That could work. Criag Kyle works on WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN while Chris Yost on AVENGERS: EGH and both of them often collaborate on TV and comic work so they likely do talk. It is possible. The question (pun intended) is that is it likely? Marvel's never really established much of a continuity with their cartoons after 1998.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

While FOX may not have listed the twins specifically by name, I believe Pietro Maximoff's name was one of the ones listed in computer files Mystique (as Deathstrike) looked through in X2.

As I have said, as an ideal, this should not be dilemma. As is known and as you two and others have stated, the Maximoff twins have had a long and storied history with the Avengers franchise; moreso than with the X-Men historically.

However, the world of network TV rights is a messy one. Kingpin originally debuted in ASM and was a Spider-Man foil for many years before latching onto Daredevil. He may be best known these days for his rivalry with DD, but even as recently as BACK IN BLACK, Kingpin remained involved with Spider-Man. Ultimate Spider-Man features Kingpin often. Yet the writers & producers of SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN were not allowed to use Kingpin in the show; Greg Wiesman stated this specifically in interviews. In practice, this forced them to revamp Tombstone/Big Man and frankly they've done a terrific job. But the "embargo" stands. Historically it makes no sense, but it was network reality.

I don't know how this fits in, but the Kingpin just appeared in Web of Shadows, the most recent Spider-Man video game. I'm running missions for his tubby butt right now.

 

[Dread]

I don't know how this fits in, but the Kingpin just appeared in Web of Shadows, the most recent Spider-Man video game. I'm running missions for his tubby butt right now.

Licensing for video games is a different beast than on TV and for movies. That is why all the Marvel superheroes can show up in an ULTIMATE ALLIANCE game but you'll never see Spider-Man alongside Wolverine and Captain America on a network cartoon or movie. Rights get tied up, everyone wants a cut, no one wants to compromise, contracts are iron clad, etc.

The franchises with the most ironed on lockdowns are Spider-Man and X-Men. Seeing those characters appear in other shows is either impossible or a legal chore.

With WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN being renewed for a new season, and with Quicksilver & Scarlet Witch appearing on it, discussions on how to handle these characters in any way for AVENGERS: EGH have to be happening now, in pre-production. Yost and Kyle are close and it is easily possible for a transition; frankly, at least 8 episodes in, Quicksilver appears more vital to W&TXM than Wanda has been, as she has yet to appear.

Of course, it may be moot if the network demands exclusive focus on the core roster of Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Ant-Man, and Wasp for the debut season. That would not be too unreasonable. JUSTICE LEAGUE had some guest stars but for the first 2 seasons, the roster of 7 remained the same (with 3-4 heroes appearing in the average episode; very few had all 7 appear, which was wise because you can't flesh everyone out that way). Of course, JL DID have guest stars (Aquaman twice, Dr. Fate twice, Entrigan the Demon, even Lobo) and AVENGERS: EGH easily could follow suit. The first season of LEGION OF SUPERHEROES had some guest stars and by the finale the roster was expanding; on the other hand, TEEN TITANS kept things locked in the core 5, even when it would have made sense to include Terra in more episodes in Season 2. Gauging the talent at this stage is a toss up; Yost and Nieli are capable of decent, solid shows, but they also have been capable of producing network-pleasing mediocrity.

 

[TheVileOne]

Dread, Wolverine and The X-men was not made or produced by any network. It was Marvel Studios and First Serv Toonz. Network suits were not involved.

It doesn't sound like Avengers is being co-produced or funded by another network either right now.

Also, DC characters, a lot of them that their are issues with is because there are legal rights in characters because of their long histories that make media adaptation versions iffy. Blue Beetle and other characters have issues I think because he's a Charleston Comics character as well.

I've never heard or given any indication that Marvel cartoons can't use this or that X-men character or that Avenger character. Thing is, Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver have never made any appearances in the movies at all, so it shouldn't be a big deal. The Hulk still appeared in Fantastic Four when Hulk was still a Universal property.

 

[Dread]

Dread, Wolverine and The X-men was not made or produced by any network. It was Marvel Studios and First Serv Toonz. Network suits were not involved.

It doesn't sound like Avengers is being co-produced or funded by another network either right now.

Also, DC characters, a lot of them that their are issues with is because there are legal rights in characters because of their long histories that make media adaptation versions iffy. Blue Beetle and other characters have issues I think because he's a Charleston Comics character as well.

I've never heard or given any indication that Marvel cartoons can't use this or that X-men character or that Avenger character. Thing is, Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver have never made any appearances in the movies at all, so it shouldn't be a big deal. The Hulk still appeared in Fantastic Four when Hulk was still a Universal property.

But it has to air on a network, and they usually have demands. People who are above the heads of a lot of writing & production teams often have all sorts of bizarre, "they just don't get it" ideas and strategies. Like an Aquaman embargo on JLU because over on SMALLVILLE they wanted to launch a Young Aquaman TV show that went nowhere. Or no Two-Face and Scarecrow, or Ra's Al Ghul, on THE BATMAN due to the movies despite all being owned outright by WB. Network cartoons always face these sorts of hurdles and I try to brace for them beforehand.

The rules for Hulk have usually been looser than for X-Men and Spider-Man properties. Note that John Semper was unable to score the Hulk for his SECRET WAR episodes of the last season of SPIDER-MAN in the 90's, so he awkwardly had to shove Lizard into that role. Hulk was on UPN on Sundays, and Spidey was on FoxKids on Saturdays (and sometimes reruns on weekdays).

Right now the issues may be whether Scarlet Witch is considered too vital to W&TXM, which will see a Season 2, to appear elsewhere, and if A:EGH's producers want to expand the roster beyond the founders shown in the promo art within the first 13-26 episodes.

And, of course, if Yost & Nieli can actually write the characters well, alongside top notch plots and, gasp, action sequences that are capable of outdoing KIM POSSIBLE (which FF:WGH had few of). Being able to rock your socks for a DTV that faces less network censorships on violence is not the same as pulling off decent action on network TV, as THE BATMAN, TMNT, and SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN did.

 

[TheVileOne]

But it has to air on a network, and they usually have demands. People who are above the heads of a lot of writing & production teams often have all sorts of bizarre, "they just don't get it" ideas and strategies. Like an Aquaman embargo on JLU because over on SMALLVILLE they wanted to launch a Young Aquaman TV show that went nowhere. Or no Two-Face and Scarecrow, or Ra's Al Ghul, on THE BATMAN due to the movies despite all being owned outright by WB. Network cartoons always face these sorts of hurdles and I try to brace for them beforehand.

OK but Aquaman still showed up on JLU. And once again, JLU was co-produced and funded by another network.

THE BATMAN was another network show.

The rules for Hulk have usually been looser than for X-Men and Spider-Man properties. Note that John Semper was unable to score the Hulk for his SECRET WAR episodes of the last season of SPIDER-MAN in the 90's, so he awkwardly had to shove Lizard into that role. Hulk was on UPN on Sundays, and Spidey was on FoxKids on Saturdays (and sometimes reruns on weekdays).

OK, once again we are talking about a show that was a UPN show and another show that was a Fox Kids show. Fox or Viacom have nothing to do with Wolverine and The X-men.

Right now the issues may be whether Scarlet Witch is considered too vital to W&TXM, which will see a Season 2, to appear elsewhere, and if A:EGH's producers want to expand the roster beyond the founders shown in the promo art within the first 13-26 episodes.

Frankly I don't see the problem. If they are two separate canons. You can have the same character showing up in two different shows. As great of a character as Scarlett Witch is, she is NOT essential to the success of the show.

Look what JL did with Hawkgirl and John Stewart GL when most people probably would've wanted Hal Jordan.

And, of course, if Yost & Nieli can actually write the characters well, alongside top notch plots and, gasp, action sequences that are capable of outdoing KIM POSSIBLE (which FF:WGH had few of). Being able to rock your socks for a DTV that faces less network censorships on violence is not the same as pulling off decent action on network TV, as THE BATMAN, TMNT, and SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN did.

Kim Possible was a great show that actually did have some inspired action sequences from time to time. Watch SO THE DRAMA.

 

[Dread]

OK but Aquaman still showed up on JLU. And once again, JLU was co-produced and funded by another network.

THE BATMAN was another network show.

Aquaman was still embargo'd. So were a lot of Batman characters.

Your argument basically is, "Don't worry about embargoes, even if they make no sense and I admit they happen, because WB was able to get around it one or two whopping seasons, and they are only the biggest company for children's cartoons these days." Gotcha.

OK, once again we are talking about a show that was a UPN show and another show that was a Fox Kids show. Fox or Viacom have nothing to do with Wolverine and The X-men.

Then whatever company who is doing WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN will need to be involved or dealt with or whatever.

Frankly I don't see the problem.

With all due respect, you haven't seen a problem with any animated project since 2001. You're the one who shrugged when I complained about Wanda being a villain yet again in W&TXM with "You got to see her as a hero in A:UTS". Like that really counts. You don't believe any network hassles come up to stifle creativity that make no sense in TV. You see nothing but roses and petals. Sorry, but past experiences don't make me that blindly naive until I see finished product.

If they are two separate canons. You can have the same character showing up in two different shows. As great of a character as Scarlett Witch is, she is NOT essential to the success of the show.

You fail to miss my point. I don't have a problem with two separate canons on TV. The fans don't. The typical viewer doesn't. But NETWORKS DO. Often times executive producers DO. These issues have come up with WB shows despite WB and DC having a smoother relationship than Marvel has with whatever five thousand companies have the license rights to their characters for TV/films. I am bringing this up as a concern.

As for whether she is essential or not, Vision without Wanda is like Superman without Lois. Just not the same dynamic. The last thing a true Avengers show needs are people getting screwed out of key character dynamics. JUSTICE LEAGUE frankly never had as many key ones as AVENGERS. For the longest time they were just a bunch of superheroes who teamed up.

Look what JL did with Hawkgirl and John Stewart GL when most people probably would've wanted Hal Jordan.

Do you know HOW many people STILL wished it was Hal Jordon? Or HATED that Hawkgirl was placed on the roster instead of [INSERT MEMBER HERE]? JusticeLeagueUnlimited.net once spent nearly a full calander year on their MB's having a mock trial with fans to determine if Hawkgirl was truly worthy of the show and whatnot (this was before JLU started and it ended after JLU Season 1).

Fans want to see the Avengers done right. Omitting Wanda, or many of their longtime members like Hawkeye or Black Knight or whoever, makes the show less than it could be.

My concern is that AVENGERS: EGH to get done right may have to be one of those shows that pushes the envelope every episode. Marvel cartoons haven't said boo to any network demand since John Semper was causing FoxKids fits in the 90's with his Spidey show. Since then, Marvel has bent over backwards to please whatever network they are on without finding creative ways around it, like 2k3 TMNT did with 4Kids for years.

A:EGH could easily be the JLU of Marvel; in fact it could easily surpass it. So long as network/company demands don't embargo any characters, and the production team actually has some stones and decides to up their game from past shows.

Kim Possible was a great show that actually did have some inspired action sequences from time to time. Watch SO THE DRAMA.

My point is that hopefully Yost & Nieli on a network TV show starring Earth's Mightiest Heroes can get some storyboard coordinators who can outdo a tweeny girl show from DISNEY.

I'll pass on Kim Possible. As a male who is over 12, it's not in my demographic. What next, Totally Spies?

 

[TheVileOne]

Aquaman was still embargo'd. So were a lot of Batman characters.

Your argument basically is, "Don't worry about embargoes, even if they make no sense and I admit they happen, because WB was able to get around it one or two whopping seasons, and they are only the biggest company for children's cartoons these days." Gotcha.

OK, but you don't know about any official embargoes they are dealing with on X-men and Avengers. Also, some of the embargoes with JLU had to do with characters not exactly originating with DC Comics which means their media rights might be tied up elsewhere.

Then whatever company who is doing WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN will need to be involved or dealt with or whatever.

Umm . . . the same company that's doing Avengers, it's called Marvel Studios. If you have any word that First Serv Toonz put some embargo on the Magneto brood, please let us know. Network suits aren't producing or funding these shows.

With all due respect, you haven't seen a problem with any animated project since 2001. You're the one who shrugged when I complained about Wanda being a villain yet again in W&TXM with "You got to see her as a hero in A:UTS". Like that really counts. You don't believe any network hassles come up to stifle creativity that make no sense in TV. You see nothing but roses and petals. Sorry, but past experiences don't make me that blindly naive until I see finished product.

I take your all due respect and I triangle choke it . I've had plenty of problems with animated projects since 2001. I think MTV Spider-man is one of the biggest abominations mankind has ever known.

For one thing, we haven't even seen Wanda yet in Wolverine and The X-men. You can't actually say she's a villain. And in the comics, Scarlett Witch did start as a villain and a member of the Brotherhood. Scarlett Witch was also a member of Force Works in the Iron Man animated series .

I get it you are a Wanda fan, you don't like what Disassembled did to her, and I don't either. And you want to see Wanda in the Avengers. OK that's all very valid. But I'm not counting chickens before they hatch, you are ready to eat some baloot on the other hand.

You fail to miss my point. I don't have a problem with two separate canons on TV. The fans don't. The typical viewer doesn't. But NETWORKS DO. Often times executive producers DO. These issues have come up with WB shows despite WB and DC having a smoother relationship than Marvel has with whatever five thousand companies have the license rights to their characters for TV/films. I am bringing this up as a concern.

OK, but the networks are not funding or producing these shows. Nick Toons made a deal to broadcast Wolverine and The X-men. And from the looks of things, Nick Toons is not producing the second season either, which could quite possibly mean that WTXM could end up on another station. Now unless Nick Toons has some sort of say in characters in this show that Marvel might want to use in a different series that will probably be a separate canon like Avengers, hey you might have a point here. But if Marvel is simply doing these shows themselves, the right way, I'm not going to see much of a problem. If the show and animation is already done and finished, it will be kind of hard if it goes on another network and Nick Toons says, Nuh Uh we have Scarlett Witch in our series, we wants to keep her!

Marvel made a new X-men series without 20th Century Fox's involvement. I think that's good for all of us.

As for whether she is essential or not, Vision without Wanda is like Superman without Lois. Just not the same dynamic. The last thing a true Avengers show needs are people getting screwed out of key character dynamics. JUSTICE LEAGUE frankly never had as many key ones as AVENGERS. For the longest time they were just a bunch of superheroes who teamed up.

Vision as a character can exist without Wanda. He's still a good character, and considering all the history with the Pyms, Ultron, etc. there's a lot of story there. But that said, we still don't know if we won't see Wanda or not. Ideally I would definitely want to get all the Wanda, Simon/Wonder Man, Vision in there, as much as possible. Just not include the crap like creating twins out of thin air. Just do a whole Wanda/Vision/Wonder Man thing with Vision because his love is real, but he is not.

Do you know HOW many people STILL wished it was Hal Jordon? Or HATED that Hawkgirl was placed on the roster instead of [INSERT MEMBER HERE]? JusticeLeagueUnlimited.net once spent nearly a full calander year on their MB's having a mock trial with fans to determine if Hawkgirl was truly worthy of the show and whatnot (this was before JLU started and it ended after JLU Season 1).

OK but at the end of the day, would you say the show still worked fine with those characters ultimately? Yes I do know all that. But the point is for the sake of telling a story for a new animated series that is NOT the comic, did it work for that story?

Fans want to see the Avengers done right. Omitting Wanda, or many of their longtime members like Hawkeye or Black Knight or whoever, makes the show less than it could be.

United They Stand had Wanda. It had Hawkeye. And it sucked. Looking at the poster it says FINALLY we are getting a show with the big three. Thor, Iron Man, and Cap are the holy trinity of the Avengers that United They Stand decided not to do. That's the biggest step in the right direction I can think of for this show.

Even if this show does not have Hawkeye or Wanda, which we can not say with absolute certainty after seeing just ONE promo image, I will still give the show a chance.

My concern is that AVENGERS: EGH to get done right may have to be one of those shows that pushes the envelope every episode. Marvel cartoons haven't said boo to any network demand since John Semper was causing FoxKids fits in the 90's with his Spidey show. Since then, Marvel has bent over backwards to please whatever network they are on without finding creative ways around it, like 2k3 TMNT did with 4Kids for years.

EMH not EGH. Man Dread, I'm not sure I can ever get enough of your man-love for 2k3 TMNT. All that implied death and off-stage slashes makes such the difference . Also, I quite frankly don't see your point. Spectacular is a great show. X-men I think is a fine show that's actually quite bleak and mature at times. And what else is there? Some bad cartoons a lot of which I think were mistakes and didn't work. I've not watched all of Fantastic Four: WGH. But I mean, that was a case where Marvel got screwed over by CN. And they wisely didn't do the same thing with the new Spidey and X-men. I feel they are learning from past mistakes. And they especially gave a great creative mind like Greg Weisman pretty good freedom for a show like Spectacular.

A:EGH could easily be the JLU of Marvel; in fact it could easily surpass it. So long as network/company demands don't embargo any characters, and the production team actually has some stones and decides to up their game from past shows.

I agree.

My point is that hopefully Yost & Nieli on a network TV show starring Earth's Mightiest Heroes can get some storyboard coordinators who can outdo a tweeny girl show from DISNEY.

I'll pass on Kim Possible. As a male who is over 12, it's not in my demographic. What next, Totally Spies?

Your complete and utter disrespect for Kim Possible makes me kimura angry. I think you'd notice a difference if you tried watching any of season 4 of Kim Possible and Totally Spies. Not to mention the spectacular voice cast for Kim Possible including DCAU alum Will Friedle as the male lead, and Bart Simpson as a naked rodent.

Kim Possible > all new TMNT.

 

[Dread]

OK, but you don't know about any official embargoes they are dealing with on X-men and Avengers. Also, some of the embargoes with JLU had to do with characters not exactly originating with DC Comics which means their media rights might be tied up elsewhere.

Fair enough. WB also sometimes has strategies that are simply bizarre.

Umm . . . the same company that's doing Avengers, it's called Marvel Studios. If you have any word that First Serv Toonz put some embargo on the Magneto brood, please let us know. Network suits aren't producing or funding these shows.

I don't know right now. I just know that unless things are handled well with Wanda, it may be considered awkward to have two versions of a character on two shows on the same network that aren't linked. Now, Kyle and Yost are involved in W&TXM and A:EMH, respectively; the pair talk often and collaborate on a lot of work. It may be possible that W&TXM could share a loose continuity. Especially since W&TXM is getting a second season and may be on a third when A:EMH is starting.

Of course, examining what is possible and what is likely is another matter. Marvel hasn't had any continuity between animated projects since the 90's when Saban was involved in most of them. Timm & Co. got a lot of mileage for their shows and Marvel's movies are doing it. Audiences on TV increasingly like it and see it as a reward for paying attention. Even every reboot of TMNT tries to tie into the past stuff. It wouldn't take much to have Wanda transition from W&TXM to A:EMH and to maybe even allude to "WOLVERINE VS. THE HULK" (the episode) as a pre-Avengers conflict.

I take your all due respect and I triangle choke it . I've had plenty of problems with animated projects since 2001. I think MTV Spider-man is one of the biggest abominations mankind has ever known.

Heh, nobody likes it. I'd never put it on a Top 20 list, but it had it's moments. Network demands and lack of writer imagination strangled that show, though.

For one thing, we haven't even seen Wanda yet in Wolverine and The X-men. You can't actually say she's a villain. And in the comics, Scarlett Witch did start as a villain and a member of the Brotherhood. Scarlett Witch was also a member of Force Works in the Iron Man animated series .

Scarlet is spelled with one t.

And I do know all that.

I get it you are a Wanda fan, you don't like what Disassembled did to her, and I don't either. And you want to see Wanda in the Avengers. OK that's all very valid. But I'm not counting chickens before they hatch, you are ready to eat some baloot on the other hand.

Nothing irks me more than missed potential, and this would be it. Bruce Timm literally used the 1999 Avengers cartoon as what NOT to do in JL/U and often said things like, "you only get one chance in a decade to do a show like this, and you have to get it right or the fans will never forgive you" or words to that effect. Yost, Nieli and Co. also have this mandate, and naturally the fans will at least want to see some of the big time character dynamics represented.

Fans can or at least should be willing to bend if not every story isn't translated panel for panel. But stuff like character dynamics & interaction can be represented no matter the episode.

JLU did it with Green Arrow & Black Canary, as well as Huntress and Question. "Fans live and breathe for that kind of stuff," Kyle has said in some interviews, and he's right. Yost knows that too.

OK, but the networks are not funding or producing these shows. Nick Toons made a deal to broadcast Wolverine and The X-men. And from the looks of things, Nick Toons is not producing the second season either, which could quite possibly mean that WTXM could end up on another station. Now unless Nick Toons has some sort of say in characters in this show that Marvel might want to use in a different series that will probably be a separate canon like Avengers, hey you might have a point here. But if Marvel is simply doing these shows themselves, the right way, I'm not going to see much of a problem. If the show and animation is already done and finished, it will be kind of hard if it goes on another network and Nick Toons says, Nuh Uh we have Scarlett Witch in our series, we wants to keep her!

Marvel made a new X-men series without 20th Century Fox's involvement. I think that's good for all of us.

That is good. It will seem weird if NickToons airs a first season of W&TXM but not a second; and they may get uppity if some characters change hands even if they have no intention of airing episodes; networks live and breathe to **** each other over. It is something to look out for. Of course, if NickToons decides to become the new FoxKids for Marvel, then all is peachy.

Vision as a character can exist without Wanda. He's still a good character, and considering all the history with the Pyms, Ultron, etc. there's a lot of story there. But that said, we still don't know if we won't see Wanda or not. Ideally I would definitely want to get all the Wanda, Simon/Wonder Man, Vision in there, as much as possible. Just not include the crap like creating twins out of thin air. Just do a whole Wanda/Vision/Wonder Man thing with Vision because his love is real, but he is not.

I would too. Vision is a character without Wanda, but with her both are better. It is like, which Green Arrow episodes of JLU were better; ones with or without Black Canary? Hell, he was oogling her from his first appearance. Timm & Co. GET IT. My big question is, do Yost & Nieli, and is Marvel willing to let them? Marvel can have demands, too.

And frankly, that demand should be, "we are lucky we are getting another chance on Avengers in under 15 years. We absolutely cannot **** it up twice. Not with a movie on the way."

OK but at the end of the day, would you say the show still worked fine with those characters ultimately? Yes I do know all that. But the point is for the sake of telling a story for a new animated series that is NOT the comic, did it work for that story?

It did to some degree. Even if by the time JLU ended, John and Shayera were no longer a couple. But a lot of people were irritated by it.

Again, I think with Justice League, a lot of character interactions had to be created because the premise is simpler than Avengers. Avengers has more intertwined and defined character interactions and dynamics than JLA had for much of it's history. That is the bread and butter of making the show work.

United They Stand had Wanda. It had Hawkeye. And it sucked. Looking at the poster it says FINALLY we are getting a show with the big three. Thor, Iron Man, and Cap are the holy trinity of the Avengers that United They Stand decided not to do. That's the biggest step in the right direction I can think of for this show.

You seem to imply A:UTS sucked only because Hawkeye and Wanda were on it. That was far from the only reason.

I do agree it is a step in the right direction, but it cannot be the only one.

Even if this show does not have Hawkeye or Wanda, which we can not say with absolute certainty after seeing just ONE promo image, I will still give the show a chance.

Oh, well, of course. We all will.

EMH not EGH. Man Dread, I'm not sure I can ever get enough of your man-love for 2k3 TMNT. All that implied death and off-stage slashes makes such the difference . Also, I quite frankly don't see your point. Spectacular is a great show. X-men I think is a fine show that's actually quite bleak and mature at times. And what else is there? Some bad cartoons a lot of which I think were mistakes and didn't work. I've not watched all of Fantastic Four: WGH. But I mean, that was a case where Marvel got screwed over by CN. And they wisely didn't do the same thing with the new Spidey and X-men. I feel they are learning from past mistakes. And they especially gave a great creative mind like Greg Weisman pretty good freedom for a show like Spectacular.

2k3 TMNT managed to please all audiences, and as it went along was very mature and sometimes dark & bleak; there are plenty of episodes that were darker and took more risks than WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN have so far. Wiesman and Yost both wrote for it, FYI. If you don't care for TMNT, you're not the only one and I won't waste my time convincing you. Taste is taste and we all have different ones. And after TMNT: FF and BTTS, I can understand some people wondering "what was all the fuss about" with those of us who are left.

Your complete and utter disrespect for Kim Possible makes me kimura angry. I think you'd notice a difference if you tried watching any of season 4 of Kim Possible and Totally Spies. Not to mention the spectacular voice cast for Kim Possible including DCAU alum Will Friedle as the male lead, and Bart Simpson as a naked rodent.

Kim Possible > all new TMNT.

I know about Will Friedle being Ron Stoppable. Girlie shows just aren't my bag, man.

 

[TheVileOne]

Totally Spies = girly show.

Kim Possible = truly good animated show where the lead character happens to be a girl.

I didn't hate Avengers UTS because it had Hawkeye and Wanda. I'm simply pointing out that just because it uses your favorite pet characters doesn't guarantee quality. While it's possible Avengers: EMH if they don't have those characters it could still work very well for the sake of their story.

 

[The Question]

True. My biggest worry, however, is the character relationships. If they have The Vision without Wanda, there are inherent problems. The Vision and Scarlet Witch are a duo. They can work very fine on their own in individual stories, but Wanda is a huge part of Vision's character arc, and Vision has no small role to play in Wanda's either. Plus, they just have a really good relationship that can be fun to watch under the right pen. Giving Vision Hank or Simon to fill Wanda's role, while workable, would change the dynamic so strongly that it would hardly be a superficial change to the character. Not saying that is inherently bad. Just voicing a concern.

 

[TheVileOne]

Scarlet Witch and Vision aren't and weren't always together.

 

[BizarroAids]

Totally Spies = girly show.

Kim Possible = truly good animated show where the lead character happens to be a girl.

I didn't hate Avengers UTS because it had Hawkeye and Wanda. I'm simply pointing out that just because it uses your favorite pet characters doesn't guarantee quality. While it's possible Avengers: EMH if they don't have those characters it could still work very well for the sake of their story.

That's how I felt about UTS as well. I love Hawkeye. I wasn't wild about the costume, but oh well it's no big deal, the one thing that bothered me was the horrible stories. I just really couldn't stand them...I hope I dont' get bashed, just stating my thoughts.

But, with EMH, I feel we'll get the core members, but may suffer with guest spots for the 2nd listers.

If EMH is anything, story wise, as Wolvie and the X-Men are, it should be a good show. I'm more pumped that we get Cap each episode, and he's not just a guest star. I've waited a looonng time to get a show like this.

 

[Chris Wallace]

I was good with this style actually

The show I never saw but heard was awful but the look I like and that Falcon costume is still my favorite version.

How ever if I could get it I would love to see something like this:

With this many characters

And guest appearance by

starting a new spin off

I hated the old show with a royal passion. However, if you're feeling masochistic, I believe you can catch it on Jetix.

 

[The Question]

Scarlet Witch and Vision aren't and weren't always together.

There were together more often than they weren't. But that's not the point. Even if they're not together romantically or physically, their relationship is still a huge part of both of them. It's certainly a significant part of The Vision's character development.

 

[Dread]

I didn't hate Avengers UTS because it had Hawkeye and Wanda. I'm simply pointing out that just because it uses your favorite pet characters doesn't guarantee quality. While it's possible Avengers: EMH if they don't have those characters it could still work very well for the sake of their story.

Vision and Scarlet Witch may not be my "favorite" pet characters, but they are characters that have a long history with the Avengers.

I'm not saying that the show can't be good even if every episode just focuses on Cap, Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, Ant-Man, and Wasp (even if teams with only one "token girl" instead of at least two out of 7-8 members being girls have been rare these days). I am, however, saying that if the show neglects some of the B-list Avengers, it won't be maximizing it's full potential. Like if JUSTICE LEAGUE never revamped to include fan faves like Green Arrow or Black Canary for stretches of time.

Of course, that did take until Season 3 (CN may have considered JLU a "new" show, but for many fans, it was Season 3 of JL with a new format & title).

True. My biggest worry, however, is the character relationships. If they have The Vision without Wanda, there are inherent problems. The Vision and Scarlet Witch are a duo. They can work very fine on their own in individual stories, but Wanda is a huge part of Vision's character arc, and Vision has no small role to play in Wanda's either. Plus, they just have a really good relationship that can be fun to watch under the right pen. Giving Vision Hank or Simon to fill Wanda's role, while workable, would change the dynamic so strongly that it would hardly be a superficial change to the character. Not saying that is inherently bad. Just voicing a concern.

I agree with this concern.

That's how I felt about UTS as well. I love Hawkeye. I wasn't wild about the costume, but oh well it's no big deal, the one thing that bothered me was the horrible stories. I just really couldn't stand them...I hope I dont' get bashed, just stating my thoughts.

But, with EMH, I feel we'll get the core members, but may suffer with guest spots for the 2nd listers.

If EMH is anything, story wise, as Wolvie and the X-Men are, it should be a good show. I'm more pumped that we get Cap each episode, and he's not just a guest star. I've waited a looonng time to get a show like this.

It is true that in some fanboy cynicism it can be easy to overlook the positive step here. And that is an Avengers cartoon that has the big three as starring characters. True, Hulk has had very little part in most of the Avengers mythos, but he was a founder and even after he left, the Avengers had a few early stories involving him, so that's enough justification to keep him around for a season or so. I just hope the show doesn't become Gamma Corps Lite as Nieli recycles his plots. Still, Cap has waited a long time to not be a guest star on a cartoon show. About 40 years too long.

Granted, the "Hulk is on the run from the military" status quo with Banner has often been a bit boring and predictable to me, so if this can offer Hulk something new, it might be worth exploring.