The Official WONDER WOMAN Discussion Thread - Part 1

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The Knight Rider guy cant act. It just shows how cheap the show will be when it comes to plot and casting. Random beefcake just got cast as her love interest.

I dont mind Etta being black or thin. Wasnt Kingpin awesome despite being black in DD? The big problem is that they first wrote the show and then gave the characters names from the comics, so its not that Etta is black, its that she'll be Etta in name only.

I honestly have never even heard of the Knight Rider guy. The other dude, while not being a beefcake, is from the Saw series I imagine - yeah, not exactly A-Star quality actors. But hey, Liz Hurley will probably bring some class, probably.

I have no qualms about Etta being black, I think it's an interesting change to be honest. But like you said, it might be that she's Etta in name alone. And that I am strongly against. I loved DD, the taller Kingpin felt proper against a DD who himself looked tall and well-built.

I agree, however i didnt like the scenes where she fights the elements. It felt cheesy and in your face. "Here Diana is about to drown and then some rocks fall on her. She battled the elements, its so deep." No its not, its crap. It wasnt some big ordeal or test, or fight with the elements with a deeper meaning. She just went through them in 2 pages and that's supposed to mean something?

And the whole book is written like that. Diana doesnt do anything herself, she's constantly told by someone what she needs to do, she then does it, more Amazons die and we have some ham fisted DEEP :whatever: moment like the one with elements. They re trying to be deep but its crap.

So now what? What spirit/villain/friend is gonna appear next and tell her what to do?

Her jet. Her invisible jet! :awesome: Nah, but I get what you mean. The 'deeper' moments seem too tried, too forced to convey a sense of depth. In fact, it's so driven by plot you hardly have the time to reflect on the themes. I guess with the story being called it Odyssey I still expect Circe to play a big role near the end, but right now a lot of it feels formulaic. I'm enjoying some of the characterisations by Hester though. The scene with the elements would've been deeper if it played a central role, rather than being the next big spectacle since that deluge of Hades/Hell a few issues back. I don't mind that Diana is being told to go from task a to task b, I guess it adds a sense of a heroic quest to it all, but the lack of independence is fast becoming tiresome. I would've preferred a more thematic retelling of the Contest itself, but so far she isn't competing with anyone other than her own fragmented self. Maybe that's the idea, I don't know. Though somehow I doubt it. I want to finish this first.
 
Her jet. Her invisible jet! :awesome: Nah, but I get what you mean. The 'deeper' moments seem too tried, too forced to convey a sense of depth. In fact, it's so driven by plot you hardly have the time to reflect on the themes. I guess with the story being called it Odyssey I still expect Circe to play a big role near the end, but right now a lot of it feels formulaic. I'm enjoying some of the characterisations by Hester though. The scene with the elements would've been deeper if it played a central role, rather than being the next big spectacle since that deluge of Hades/Hell a few issues back. I don't mind that Diana is being told to go from task a to task b, I guess it adds a sense of a heroic quest to it all, but the lack of independence is fast becoming tiresome.
Exactly!
I would've preferred a more thematic retelling of the Contest itself, but so far she isn't competing with anyone other than her own fragmented self. Maybe that's the idea, I don't know. Though somehow I doubt it. I want to finish this first.
I'd love to see that.
 
what the hell is this needle crap? i hope to god her lasso still compels the truth rather than her going around sticking people with sodium pentathol.
She does not inject the guy sodium pentothal, she's taking a blood sample of the guy's blood to study the drug he's on.
 
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A drug called Charlie Sheen

It was going to melt his face

It could be that WW is forcing drugs on people, creating drug addicts. She and her love interest [BLACKOUT]Arsenal[/BLACKOUT] do drugs and taffy cats. :awesome:

Those two had better stay away from Galenthias the wonder kitteh
 
I dont mind Etta being black or thin. Wasnt Kingpin awesome despite being black in DD? The big problem is that they first wrote the show and then gave the characters names from the comics, so its not that Etta is black, its that she'll be Etta in name only. If i am not mistaken Etta wont be her friend but some other chick who is a drug addict in the comics. See what i mean?
Now where in the world did you get this impression? Everything that's been reported about the show states that Etta is Diana's, quote, "bubbly personal assistant." Okay, she may not end up resembling Etta from the comics in the least, just like every other character might not end up resembling their comics counterparts, but it's fairly safe to assume that she's not supposed to be "Etta in name only."

Generally I have a very, very low regard for changing characters' ethnicities around without a very good reason. It creates a twisted impression that racial identity isn't important to a person. Moreover, you would never, ever, ever see anyone turn a black character into a white character under the fanciful notion that it would be an "interesting change," so why is it okay to change a white character into other ethnicities? People have this weird impression of "whiteness" as this racial blank slate upon which you can imprint other ethnicities for whatever purpose and I find it incredibly disturbing at best.

And besides, I'm getting a very bad feeling about a network TV show specifically going out of its way to cast a black actress for a role that's traditionally known to be the snarky comic relief sidekick. And before anyone says "Maybe she's the best actress for the role," I've seen Tracie Thoms in a bunch of stuff before and, frankly, if there's any role on the show she's suited for, it would be Myndi Mayer instead of Etta Candy.
 
Moreover, you would never, ever, ever see anyone turn a black character into a white character under the fanciful notion that it would be an "interesting change," so why is it okay to change a white character into other ethnicities? People have this weird impression of "whiteness" as this racial blank slate upon which you can imprint other ethnicities for whatever purpose and I find it incredibly disturbing at best.
I guess its because of reverse racism. You change a black character to white and you re a racist, but you re not if you do the opposite. I guess they want some racial variety in there and Etta got the short end of the stick.

I agree with the rest of your post.
 
Generally I have a very, very low regard for changing characters' ethnicities around without a very good reason. It creates a twisted impression that racial identity isn't important to a person. Moreover, you would never, ever, ever see anyone turn a black character into a white character under the fanciful notion that it would be an "interesting change," so why is it okay to change a white character into other ethnicities? People have this weird impression of "whiteness" as this racial blank slate upon which you can imprint other ethnicities for whatever purpose and I find it incredibly disturbing at best.

And besides, I'm getting a very bad feeling about a network TV show specifically going out of its way to cast a black actress for a role that's traditionally known to be the snarky comic relief sidekick. And before anyone says "Maybe she's the best actress for the role," I've seen Tracie Thoms in a bunch of stuff before and, frankly, if there's any role on the show she's suited for, it would be Myndi Mayer instead of Etta Candy.

Good point, but I don't think it's that complicated. Most of the time when there's a 'new black character' added it's meant to provide a sense of diversity, yes its a controversial addition/change, but the intention has always been to do away with racism rather than to encourage it.

And to be fair, most of these characters really don't have the ethnic dimension associated with them. A generic black-haired, white male, is just that: a generic identity, especially when we're talking about Western fiction. I agree that Tracie Thoms is more suitable for Myndi, and for all we know maybe that's what she will end up as, or maybe an amalgamation between Etta and Myndi, but at the end of the day, the ethnic change isn't that big a deal. Etta isn't specifically characterised as a white girl, she's characterised as a minority. To change the definition of what is a minority as the decades go along isn't exactly a peccadillo affair.
 
I agree that Tracie Thoms is more suitable for Myndi, and for all we know maybe that's what she will end up as, or maybe an amalgamation between Etta and Myndi, but at the end of the day, the ethnic change isn't that big a deal. Etta isn't specifically characterised as a white girl, she's characterised as a minority. To change the definition of what is a minority as the decades go along isn't exactly a peccadillo affair.
In the leaked script they're clearly two different characters, but it's strange we haven't heard who they cast as Myndi yet, being such a major role in the series.
 
Maybe they changed Myndi to just Etta since she woud be enough.
 
Yes because Smallville is a clear indication how superhero stuff can never last long periods such as 10 seasons or so. :p

Ok, lemme see if I got it right: you think Smallville is, in its current campy style, creating new possibilities for superhero flicks?

For me, Smallville is part of the deadly symptoms that are starting to kill the genre.
 
And to be fair, most of these characters really don't have the ethnic dimension associated with them. A generic black-haired, white male, is just that: a generic identity, especially when we're talking about Western fiction. I agree that Tracie Thoms is more suitable for Myndi, and for all we know maybe that's what she will end up as, or maybe an amalgamation between Etta and Myndi, but at the end of the day, the ethnic change isn't that big a deal. Etta isn't specifically characterised as a white girl, she's characterised as a minority. To change the definition of what is a minority as the decades go along isn't exactly a peccadillo affair.
But the only people who would ever think of whiteness as "generic" are white people. It's a luxury afforded to those who don't have to deal with that stuff on a regular basis; being the racial majority doesn't make one devoid of racial identity. You think that a minority looks at a white person and thinks, "Well, that sure is generic, I sure don't see any 'race' there at all"? We are all "the other" to other people.

And what, after all, does it take to be "specifically characterized as a white [character]?" I understand that Etta's ethnicity has never been significant to the character on the broad basis of her being a fictional character in fictional stories, but I don't need to see Etta constantly bombarded with stories associated with her race to know that she is a white woman. And the idea that a white woman is interchangeable with a black woman, fictional or otherwise, is a really disturbing that I think creators should think about more carefully before they enact it. Again, would you ever say that someone like Blade or even the new Aqualad are "specifically characterized as black characters?" They don't really have stories being all about their race and making it a big deal to the character, but I doubt anyone would say they're interchangeable with white versions of themselves.

Sorry, this is not meant as a antagonistic towards you or anyone else; I just find this attitude of "Characters can be any race at all and it wouldn't make a difference" really irritating because it's color-blindess at its very worst.
 
OT, but has anyone warmed up to the new WW costume. I find myself quite liking it save for a few details. I find the belt and top are great and I would have no problem if they use that design with the regular undies in later years.
 
Ok, lemme see if I got it right: you think Smallville is, in its current campy style, creating new possibilities for superhero flicks?

For me, Smallville is part of the deadly symptoms that are starting to kill the genre
.

It's not killing the genre if it's creating more superhero shows, not to mention we got ABC shows coming out from Marvel and whatnot, nothing is killing or "dooming" the genre, it's just your total pessimist attitude towards this upcoming show that you can't possible see anything in positve light whatsoever.

Smallville is an indicator that people will watch comic book based shows as much as Walking Dead is.
 
I've always felt that the whole changing the race of characters for other mediums only really matters if the race of the character is key to the character. Black Panther could not be played by a white guy cuz his race is key to his character. Same with say the Red Skull. Kinda has to be a white guy. However, i've always felt that supporting cast is fair game. Making Robbie Robertson a White dude in the next Spider-Man movie doesn't really mean s**t one or the other, cuz ultimately he's just gonna show up once or twice and say a line or two. Same with Etta Candy. Just a supporting character. I mean, who gives a s**t? If it makes people feel any better, maybe they'll make Io Japanese.
 
Agreed, but I also dont agree with only changing the race of characters that are key. It doesnt say Batman has to be white, but he should be.
 
I've always felt that the whole changing the race of characters for other mediums only really matters if the race of the character is key to the character. Black Panther could not be played by a white guy cuz his race is key to his character. Same with say the Red Skull. Kinda has to be a white guy. However, i've always felt that supporting cast is fair game. Making Robbie Robertson a White dude in the next Spider-Man movie doesn't really mean s**t one or the other, cuz ultimately he's just gonna show up once or twice and say a line or two. Same with Etta Candy. Just a supporting character. I mean, who gives a s**t? If it makes people feel any better, maybe they'll make Io Japanese.
But Robertson isn't a white guy in the next movie, and no one is ever going to make him one. I feel like most people aren't even aware of how awkward this dichotomy is, and I don't think they're making a clear distinction over how "important" race has to be for a character before they aren't allowed to change that race, so long as it isn't pivotal like it would be for Magneto or Black Panther. I mean, I feel like race is either important or it isn't, you can't have it both ways without setting a really unfortunate precedent.

Nor is the discussion limited to supporting characters. Remember how there was all that talk about making Spider-Man black a while back -- mostly amongst the nerddom, not amongst the actual filmmakers -- with the exact same rationales that are being given here: "His race isn't important to his character; It would be interesting." Like being a straight white male aka the height of demographical privilege in America, which is a term I made up right this second, is interchangeable with being a black man. Sure, if you pare anyone down to the most elemental and basic tropes of a character -- "is a nerd, has spiderish powers"; "comic relief, cheerful, likes to eat" -- then it's hard to say that race matters so much, but...it's not the same.

And yeah, this show's going to have far bigger problems going for it than Etta Candy being black, but that's like saying The Last Airbender had far bigger problems going for it than the whitewashing of main characters...which it did. But the dichotomy is either important, or it isn't. I just don't like this in-between of "Well, it's okay in this instance because etc etc" because, again, those "etc etc"s seem to be really subjective and open to whatever interpretation people might have in order to justify it at any given situation.
 
Really, is there anyone who really cares about Etta Candy's ethnicity?
It's Etta Candy, for Zeus' sake. And I always thought she was Jewish.
 
I'll try to answer this in parts, if that's okay. Again, know that this is simply for the sake of the argument and has no antipathy on my end towards you or anyone else :)

But the only people who would ever think of whiteness as "generic" are white people. It's a luxury afforded to those who don't have to deal with that stuff on a regular basis; being the racial majority doesn't make one devoid of racial identity. You think that a minority looks at a white person and thinks, "Well, that sure is generic, I sure don't see any 'race' there at all"? We are all "the other" to other people.

Yes, that's why I was careful to say that this is the norm for Western fiction. I agree with you completely that it isn't an excuse, that it should not be a luxury, and that being the racial majority does not nullify racial identity. But as for whatever otherness is created, it's like you said, we are all 'the other' for other people. But the key toward cultural cohabitation should encourage to destroy otherness in all its forms. It's unfortunate even with the advent of things like globalisation that Western ideals are dominant everywhere, and that western sense of 'generic' is spewing over different cultures as well, but we're not arguing that are we? We are concerned with the implications of changing an otherwise white character's race. I never meant "interesting" in the negative connotation you might have taken it to be. What I am suggesting is that when it comes to characterisation there can be changes, there can be shifts, and reinventions. These are, at the end of the day, characters serving a purpose to the story, not definitive human beings with individual rights. Whether or not the character is truly identified in terms of his or her race does matter, one cannot ignore that. I am saying that within the context of Western fiction, white really is generic because the same sense of 'other' and 'self' is at work, whether consciously or not.

Now if the racial change is meant to serve something as ostensible as "lets make so and so black because it'll be interesting" (in the negative sense), it would be racist. But what if the author is seeking diversity and he consciously places a black, an Hispanic, and an Asian character to tag along with our Aryan Boy? Would that be racist? The answer is that it depends on how you look at it. Addressing 'race' does not make you a racist.

And what, after all, does it take to be "specifically characterized as a white character?" I understand that Etta's ethnicity has never been significant to the character on the broad basis of her being a fictional character in fictional stories, but I don't need to see Etta constantly bombarded with stories associated with her race to know that she is a white woman.

What it takes is an explicit display, or evidence, that shows that the character's ethnicity matters. In the spirit of reinvention (or in this case adaptation) you are allowed to change things about a character. You need to consider what is really important about her, and if her ethnicity does in fact play a role in her characterisation or not. This is true especially for comics where ethnicity is played out significantly. But lets forget that for the moment. Let's say we have preserved everything that makes Etta her own lovable, WooWoo ing self but she's sporting a little more melanin in her skin. Would that really effect the character at all? I think readers are much more open than that.

And it's as I've said before, she is more prominently a minority, if anything is needed to reassess that point in the decades since she first appeared, then by all means change what you must! Again, I know it's terrible, but that's just how it works. Characters in fiction have a dynamic existence.

And the idea that a white woman is interchangeable with a black woman, fictional or otherwise, is a really disturbing that I think creators should think about more carefully before they enact it. Again, would you ever say that someone like Blade or even the new Aqualad are "specifically characterized as black characters?" They don't really have stories being all about their race and making it a big deal to the character, but I doubt anyone would say they're interchangeable with white versions of themselves.

Now that's pushing it, I never suggested you exchange a white woman with a black one. I'm saying that there comes a point where we shouldn't be judging individuals based on their race. As for Blade or Aqualad, no I wouldn't say that, but can there be a White or Yellow Aqualad? Of course there can be. For Blade, that's a different story. I think in the recesses of the pop-cultural mind, with the success of the films and even the current vampire craze he has found a niche as a definitive 'Cool Black Vampire-Ass-Kickin Guy'. But I understand what you're trying to establish here.

It's strange though, for all we know Etta's ethnicity probably wouldn't even matter that much at all. I'm reminded of Pete Ross from SV, and to be honest I wasn't effected by his change at all. Modern retellings will always change something about the character to make it superficially contemporary. Seeing a black Pete in a small American town with Clark Kent wasn't exactly the end of the world.

I feel like most people aren't even aware of how awkward this dichotomy is, and I don't think they're making a clear distinction over how "important" race has to be for a character before they aren't allowed to change that race, so long as it isn't pivotal like it would be for Magneto or Black Panther. I mean, I feel like race is either important or it isn't, you can't have it both ways without setting a really unfortunate precedent.

Not at all, it isn't, and should never be, either of those extremes. What of an individual identity which transcends nationality, race, and even gender? Surely suggesting that wouldn't bring on the the White Man's Burden? In addition to that, you can't just go on and say that a character's real characterisation is just as important as his racial identity when it hasn't even been addressed?

Nor is the discussion limited to supporting characters. Remember how there was all that talk about making Spider-Man black a while back -- mostly amongst the nerddom, not amongst the actual filmmakers -- with the exact same rationales that are being given here: "His race isn't important to his character; It would be interesting." Like being a straight white male aka the height of demographical privilege in America, which is a term I made up right this second, is interchangeable with being a black man. Sure, if you pare anyone down to the most elemental and basic tropes of a character -- "is a nerd, has spiderish powers"; "comic relief, cheerful, likes to eat" -- then it's hard to say that race matters so much, but...it's not the same.

I don't remember the Spidey dilemma, but you're saying this yourself: being the "height of demographical privilege in America" (great term btw :awesome:) is not interchangable, but that is not what Etta Candy is! She is the opposite of that, and if you change her ethnicity to highlight that even more firmly why is that suddenly such a bad thing?

As for the Last Airbender .... meh... I didn't watch the movie. I think I saved a lot of time by making that decision. :D
 
I honestly can't bring myself to give s**t either way.

Like Antonello said, it's f**king Etta Candy. I didn't even know the character existed until like a few years ago when whats his face brought her back from outer space.
 
Yes, that's why I was careful to say that this is the norm for Western fiction. I agree with you completely that it isn't an excuse, that it should not be a luxury, and that being the racial majority does not nullify racial identity. But as for whatever otherness is created, it's like you said, we are all 'the other' for other people. But the key toward cultural cohabitation should encourage to destroy otherness in all its forms. It's unfortunate even with the advent of things like globalisation that Western ideals are dominant everywhere, and that western sense of 'generic' is spewing over different cultures as well, but we're not arguing that are we? We are concerned with the implications of changing an otherwise white character's race. I never meant "interesting" in the negative connotation you might have taken it to be. What I am suggesting is that when it comes to characterisation there can be changes, there can be shifts, and reinventions. These are, at the end of the day, characters serving a purpose to the story, not definitive human beings with individual rights. Whether or not the character is truly identified in terms of his or her race does matter, one cannot ignore that. I am saying that within the context of Western fiction, white really is generic because the same sense of 'other' and 'self' is at work, whether consciously or not.

Now if the racial change is meant to serve something as ostensible as "lets make so and so black because it'll be interesting" (in the negative sense), it would be racist. But what if the author is seeking diversity and he consciously places a black, an Hispanic, and an Asian character to tag along with our Aryan Boy? Would that be racist? The answer is that it depends on how you look at it. Addressing 'race' does not make you a racist.
I think it's that last part, wherein the intent of changing Etta's race might (or might not) be to create more minority representation in an otherwise lily-white TV series, that makes this a little bit of a dangerous double-standard to me. Because arguing that a Caucasian character might not be truly identified with his or her race isn't actually a very large step at all from arguing that a black or Asian character might not be truly identified with his or her race. I know this because I've seen people take that exact specific step, make that precise argument, in support of adaptations that cast white actors for parts that were originally minorities.

After all, if we're saying that Etta Candy the character was so originally so racially-ambiguous that it doesn't even matter that much if she's a white woman, then the opposite would be true as well, wouldn't it?...if she was originally a black woman in the comics, then all else being equal there shouldn't be any problems with casting her as a white woman in the TV series.

Honestly, that's the only real concern I have to any of this. Things can be done in support of diversity, with the noblest of intentions, and still be done the wrong way. The concept of affirmative action, for instance, gets a really bad rep and sometimes deserves it; it was established to abolish inequality, but does so by being unequal. Point being, not being careful about these kinds of acts and being all laissez-faire about it can send really conflicting messages and results. If a stance that increases diversity and a stance that suppresses diversity can both be argued for with the exact same rationales -- "It's a reinvention, things can be changed." "This character is racially-inconsequential, doesn't matter if we change it." "It's more accessible this way." "etc etc" -- then maybe there's something deeply problematic about those rationales.

And it's as I've said before, she is more prominently a minority, if anything is needed to reassess that point in the decades since she first appeared, then by all means change what you must! Again, I know it's terrible, but that's just how it works. Characters in fiction have a dynamic existence.
I'm not sure I understand. Etta Candy served the purposes of a minority in the comics in the sense that she was female and overweight (and she sure ain't gonna be overweight on the show; Tracie Thoms is perfectly fit) and so it...makes sense to have her serve as a whole other, more accessible sort of minority representation on this show? That's not just terrible, that's outright crazy. Minorities are no more interchangeable with each other than they are with the majority.

It's strange though, for all we know Etta's ethnicity probably wouldn't even matter that much at all. I'm reminded of Pete Ross from SV, and to be honest I wasn't effected by his change at all. Modern retellings will always change something about the character to make it superficially contemporary. Seeing a black Pete in a small American town with Clark Kent wasn't exactly the end of the world.
True, but I might also point out that it's becoming another sort of awkward precedent wherein the white protagonist's best friends have the tendency of becoming black in these sorts of live-action adaptations. Evidently, the main characters are always too "racially-defined" to ever think of changing, but these secondary-characters are just the right amount of racially-ambiguous in the source material to turn into minorities? And why even make that kind of change? Do audiences just react better when the white protagonist's sidekicks are black? That's...not really okay either.
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Not at all, it isn't, and should never be, either of those extremes. What of an individual identity which transcends nationality, race, and even gender? Surely suggesting that wouldn't bring on the the White Man's Burden? In addition to that, you can't just go on and say that a character's real characterisation is just as important as his racial identity when it hasn't even been addressed?
I personally don't think we're at the point in society where those sorts of things won't ever matter to a character. And frankly, I'm not sure we ever want to be at that point. Diversity is great because it's diverse. You brought up the concept of destroying otherness earlier and, while that's a great notion, I have to say that it's important to be mindful of not destroying race itself right along with otherness in the process. I like the way that this article puts it: "I would like the uniqueness of every single person to be admired, not ignored. Instead of trying to tackle and dismantle the idea of race, it would be more productive to address the racial inequality that prevails." There's absolutely nothing wrong with seeing differences in race, culture, gender, or nationality -- it's wrong when you discriminate based on those things, sure -- and a character that's devoid of those identifiers might as well be an alien from space (though...not always) instead of a real human being.
 
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It's not killing the genre if it's creating more superhero shows, not to mention we got ABC shows coming out from Marvel and whatnot, nothing is killing or "dooming" the genre, it's just your total pessimist attitude towards this upcoming show that you can't possible see anything in positve light whatsoever.

Smallville is an indicator that people will watch comic book based shows as much as Walking Dead is.

Oh, la naïvété! :yay:

You got everything backwards. When you have an inflation in 1 genre, and with some disturbing campy crap already popping up, you are ALREADY in the downward spiral.

Of course you can't see it, the immediate optical illusion is that of bizzness glory.

But Smallville being that campy and now WW going CINO's direction (not to say some other indicators) suggest one of two ways ahead:

a) change of direction, cause producers are suddenly aware of the danger in producing such a load of second-hand stuff;

b) few years of that crapfest and then moving on to some other sort of genre.
 
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