Why do people say Zack Snyder doesn’t respect comics?

[Babillygunn]

I'm weary of Superman as a misunderstood God or an angst-ridden alien. One of the things I would take from the original movie is Superman's POV as Earth's friend. It opens up much more characterization and interaction. It allows the other characters to connect with him and thus the audience watching can connect with him too. This other approach often leaves him cold and distant and someone who you don't want to spend two hours with.

The religious allegory is fine in the background but I dislike when it dominates the story and becomes the character's POV. It's one thing if the people react to him as a Christ-like figure, it's another for Superman to see himself that way.

Agree 100%. It is not that a messianic figure like Jesus is not an interesting archetype. It’s that the writers only see him as one dimensional. I like how you put it, that Donner and Reeve interpreted the archetype as more “Earth’s friend” which is pretty appropriate. They recognized that the coolest aspect of the Christ story is that an all powerful God did not value his own power over his humanity. A good Christ figure works when he actively seeks out a lowly position to live amongst humanity and to serve people because he cares for them. That was the dichotomy between Superman and Zod in Superman II. Zod thinks Superman cares for humans like pets, but he actually values his own humanity at a premium.

Snyder made Superman brood so much over both his power and his humanity that he came across as joyless and he ultimately did not display the love that is essential to a Christ archetype. Having the characterization that they gave Jonathan and Martha really failed him in this way as well.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

My issues with Snyders filmmaking stem from the fact he either misunderstands these characters, or more likely, he doesn't care to understand and thinks others are stupid for doing so. it's true, he aims high, but he rarely ever lands. everything he does is on the nose, and it comes across as if he actually dislikes the true nature of these characters and what they stand for. Making Batmans suit comic book grey doesn't suddenly make that version of Batman a good real life adaption of the source material. Actually, I think it makes it worse simply because it shows the director is not interested at all in what makes these characters stand the test of time. Having Batman being a cold blooded murdered because he's "jaded" is so damn lazy. And telling others to "get real" about it won't convince others to try to see your way either.

The idea of Superman also being boring is debatable. I think getting Superman right in film has been made far harder than it actually should be. He's not a hard character to understand and you don't have to turn him into a murdering, depressed mess to try to get audiences to connect.

The grand irony of Snyder's films is just how shallow they are. His Superman, Batman and Watchmen might look just like the comics. But that is all they have in common, which is why so much time and effort is invested in examining his frames like he's Kurosawa just to find the "hidden meaning" of everything. Because there is nothing past the surface, which only looks like the comics and lacks any relation to the characters as they are most well liked and/or known.

There is a reason we have to get the obscure, "Batman did this that one time or Superman did that this other time" when having these conversations. Watch any random episode of the new Watchmen series, and compare it to Snyder's movie. Snyder's movie feels like pre-school in comparison and it's so telling imo.

 

[Gothamsknight]

The grand irony of Snyder's films is just how shallow they are. His Superman, Batman and Watchmen might look just like the comics. But that is all they have in common, which is why so much time and effort is invested in examining his frames like he's Kurosawa just to find the "hidden meaning" of everything. Because there is nothing past the surface, which only looks like the comics and lacks any relation to the characters as they are most well liked and/or known.

There is a reason we have to get the obscure, "Batman did this that one time or Superman did that this other time" when having these conversations. Watch any random episode of the new Watchmen series, and compare it to Snyder's movie. Snyder's movie feels like pre-school in comparison and it's so telling imo.

Yup. Everything is surface level with 0 zero depth. That's one of the reasons I also feel nothing when watching his movies. For me, it's just a slow mo CGI fest. And when he tries to be "deep", it ends up being laughable. The Martha scene, to this day, is hilarious and cringe at the same time. I've been told I don't understand that scene. The truth is, I do and it doesn't make the scene any less cringe.

Another example is Batman's motivations in BVS. Snyder somehow managed to make the world's greatest detective actually stupid. It's laughable and sad.

 

[Batmannerism]

Agree 100%. It is not that a messianic figure like Jesus is not an interesting archetype. It’s that the writers only see him as one dimensional. I like how you put it, that Donner and Reeve interpreted the archetype as more “Earth’s friend” which is pretty appropriate. They recognized that the coolest aspect of the Christ story is that an all powerful God did not value his own power over his humanity. A good Christ figure works when he actively seeks out a lowly position to live amongst humanity and to serve people because he cares for them. That was the dichotomy between Superman and Zod in Superman II. Zod thinks Superman cares for humans like pets, but he actually values his own humanity at a premium.

Snyder made Superman brood so much over both his power and his humanity that he came across as joyless and he ultimately did not display the love that is essential to a Christ archetype. Having the characterization that they gave Jonathan and Martha really failed him in this way as well.

summed it up nicely ( and a lot better than I could have).

 

[SwordOfMorning]

People who quote RLM annoy the **** out of me but there is something they said about Michael Bay's Pain and Gain I always think of when I watch Snyder's "deep" scenes: it feels like the slightly dim high school jock composing a love poem.

I really do wonder how long DC fandom will continue to revolve around Snyder drama. I can't really complain about it too much because I certainly engage in it but it is almost impossible to get away from. The damage to the DC brand from his films is really something to behold.

 

[The Joker]

Agree 100%. It is not that a messianic figure like Jesus is not an interesting archetype. It’s that the writers only see him as one dimensional. I like how you put it, that Donner and Reeve interpreted the archetype as more “Earth’s friend” which is pretty appropriate. They recognized that the coolest aspect of the Christ story is that an all powerful God did not value his own power over his humanity. A good Christ figure works when he actively seeks out a lowly position to live amongst humanity and to serve people because he cares for them. That was the dichotomy between Superman and Zod in Superman II. Zod thinks Superman cares for humans like pets, but he actually values his own humanity at a premium.

Snyder made Superman brood so much over both his power and his humanity that he came across as joyless and he ultimately did not display the love that is essential to a Christ archetype. Having the characterization that they gave Jonathan and Martha really failed him in this way as well.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

The religious allegory is fine in the background but I dislike when it dominates the story and becomes the character's POV. It's one thing if the people react to him as a Christ-like figure, it's another for Superman to see himself that way.

When I learned that Zack Snyder was a fan of Ayn Rand, it explained a lot to me about the way he sees Superman.

 

[Herofan]

I'm weary of Superman as a misunderstood God or an angst-ridden alien. One of the things I would take from the original movie is Superman's POV as Earth's friend. It opens up much more characterization and interaction. It allows the other characters to connect with him and thus the audience watching can connect with him too. This other approach often leaves him cold and distant and someone who you don't want to spend two hours with.

I wonder if Donner ever responded to Tarantino/Bill's view of Superman that he thinks he's superior to humans, that Kent is Superman's parody/critique of humanity.

 

[Herofan]

The grand irony of Snyder's films is just how shallow they are. His Superman, Batman and Watchmen might look just like the comics. But that is all they have in common, which is why so much time and effort is invested in examining his frames like he's Kurosawa just to find the "hidden meaning" of everything. Because there is nothing past the surface, which only looks like the comics and lacks any relation to the characters as they are most well liked and/or known.

I thought he did pretty well in portraying, Ozymandias aside, the Watchmen characters and story, especially given that or maybe because most of the characters weren't meant to be likeable and already had some contradictory elements.

When I learned that Zack Snyder was a fan of Ayn Rand, it explained a lot to me about the way he sees Superman.

Superman shouldn't be portrayed as a big follower or enforcer of authority.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I thought he did pretty well in portraying, Ozymandias aside, the Watchmen characters and story, especially given that or maybe because most of the characters weren't meant to be likeable and already had some contradictory elements.



Superman shouldn't be portrayed as a big follower or enforcer of authority.

The aesthetic of his Watchmen film is just so deeply, deeply wrong. He assembled a wonderful cast, I commend his decision to be so faithful to the graphic novel but if you gave that cast and screenplay to any number of directors I could think of I suspect they would have done a better job of it. Zack was just the wrong guy for it.

300 is Zack's wheelhouse. Big, gaudy, goofy action spectacle. Fun, stylish schlock. I don't even think he's wrong for all DC properties, a Zack Snyder Aquaman movie sounds ****ing awesome to me.

 

[Hollis Mason]

I don't think ZS doesn't respect comics. He clearly has a big passion for them like most fans, but he also wants to do something new and original with the source material (which, imo, makes him far better than the current writers of DC comics), something that will be remembered as a VERSION of those characters and not an adaptation of them. Problem is, imo, that he doesn't really know how to execute his ideas in a way it should work.

That said, dude has some big balls. He tried to do something different, and maybe it didn't work, but at least he tried to.

 

[Babillygunn]

I don't think ZS doesn't respect comics. He clearly has a big passion for them like most fans, but he also wants to do something new and original with the source material (which, imo, makes him far better than the current writers of DC comics), something that will be remembered as a VERSION of those characters and not an adaptation of them. Problem is, imo, that he doesn't really know how to execute his ideas in a way it should work.

That said, dude has some big balls. He tried to do something different, and maybe it didn't work, but at least he tried to.

It’s a fine line between doing a VERSION of a character and betraying the nature of the character. Snyder not only crosses that line, he takes a dump on it. To your point, I consider him the Bendis of film. He puts his “ballsy vision” ahead of everything else. It’s disrespectful of the character and it’s just flat out arrogant. It also doesn’t help that the vision (for both Snyder and Bendis) is hollow.

I am intrigued why you aren’t happy with the DC writers as a whole right now. Between Tomasi, Rucka, King, Jurgens, Lobdell, and Tynion to name a few, I feel like they have a pretty good stable. (I’m not a huge fan of Scott Snyder or Bendis.)

 

[Hollis Mason]

It’s a fine line between doing a VERSION of a character and betraying the nature of the character. Snyder not only crosses that line, he takes a dump on it. To your point, I consider him the Bendis of film. He puts his “ballsy vision” ahead of everything else. It’s disrespectful of the character and it’s just flat out arrogant. It also doesn’t help that the vision (for both Snyder and Bendis) is hollow.

I am intrigued why you aren’t happy with the DC writers as a whole right now. Between Tomasi, Rucka, King, Jurgens, Lobdell, and Tynion to name a few, I feel like they have a pretty good stable. (I’m not a huge fan of Scott Snyder or Bendis.)

I think what Snyder wanted to do was make a version of the character that was living in the real world and had to made decisions that would have either good or bad consequences, but he just didn't know how to make those thing into a cohesive story that made us care for said character. He tried to do to Superman what Scorsese did to Jesus in The Last Temptation of Christ, but he just didn't know how execute it that well, and Snyder isn't even close to Scorsese.

Snyder is someone that can't really understand what makes a character/work what it is supposed to be. Same thing happened with his Watchmen adaptation.

 

[flickchick85]

The problem there too, is that Snyder has no sense of the “real world” in his movies at all. Nothing looks real in them, nobody behaves like a real person in them. He has not a single naturalistic bone in his body. So the idea of him doing a “real world” version of any comics character is laughable to me. That was nowhere within his wheelhouse to pull off.

 

[Sithborg]

I do wonder if Snyder ever saw the Watchmen TV series, and what his reaction would be to that. As it makes strong arguments against a lot of popular things in the book.

 

[SVSuperman]

What Zack Snyder did to Jimmy Olsen is unforgivable.

 

[flickchick85]

Seems like a fantastic metaphor for how Snyder views Superman and his world though.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I don't have any attachment to Jimmy Olsen, but his fate in BvS is a good example of general immature edgelordism of Snyder's work. And probably one of answers to the title of this thread.

 

[SupermanFan]

What Zack Snyder did to Jimmy Olsen is unforgivable.

It bothered me until I heard it was a 5 film arc and then it didn’t. He wanted to make a Lord of the Rings type arc with these characters where it has a definitive ending but WB tried to force a shared universe out of it. What should have happened is they should have all gotten on the same level from the start.

 

[Babillygunn]

It bothered me until I heard it was a 5 film arc and then it didn’t. He wanted to make a Lord of the Rings type arc with these characters where it has a definitive ending but WB tried to force a shared universe out of it. What should have happened is they should have all gotten on the same level from the start.

I’m not Andy Dufresne. I am not willing to crawl through a river of crap just to come out the other side.

 

[Zarex]

I do wonder if Snyder ever saw the Watchmen TV series, and what his reaction would be to that. As it makes strong arguments against a lot of popular things in the book.

Are you suggesting that the hyper violent, xenophobic, racist, homophobic and misogynistic conspiracy theorist with the cool mask is a bad guy?

 

[Erzengel]

I’m not Andy Dufresne. I am not willing to crawl through a river of crap just to come out the other side.

That stuff isn't new. "Everyone, you'll appreciate Dead Man's Chest once At World's End drops." I didn't like DMC before or after that movie.

However, a movie like Endgame, can add a new facet to Dark World which allows me to have a new appreciation for the movie but it ultimately doesn't change how I previously viewed it.

 

[Sithborg]

Are you suggesting that the hyper violent, xenophobic, racist, homophobic and misogynistic conspiracy theorist with the cool mask is a bad guy?

I think its the ultimate rebuke of Ozymandias than the Rohrschach stuff would get to him more, if he got that at all. That the man that is Randian perfection, with a Randian outcome in the book, finally gets called out on his murdering of 3 million people would likely not sit well with Snyder. I saw quite a few complaints about the lack of "moral ambiguity". I'm sure Veidt was described as a "necessary evil" to many fans, which good god, has that phrase been in the news lately.

 

[hellblazer103]

What Zack Snyder did to Jimmy Olsen is unforgivable.

Even my mom agreed to this lol

 

[thangaran]

I really am anticipating ZL’s JL arc just to see what he was trying to do; however how I do ever so wish that the first live action B and S film would have been more fun, better choreographed action, with just a much more solid story idea and character motivations but with meaning and drama as well like Civil War. It doesn’t need to be Marvel but on the spectrum of Aquaman and WW. That would have been great