Discussion: Abortion

[Tally Man]

I think the school should notify the parent that minor received treatment. With regard to testing, you could perhaps limit it to positive results. If the minor needs to routinely taking critical drugs, the parent should be aware of that. I don't want the school hiding the fact their child now has the HIV virus for instance.

You do however realize that this is in fact an area in which it has been recognized that the dependent has the right to get these procedures through their own consent. So simply put, a parent's right to consent isn't an absolute right. There have been instances where either by their own rights or by an interest in the public good that it has been recognized that a minor is mature enough to consent by themselves.

When it comes to procedural votes and parliamentarian tactics, all you need is 3 votes to stop a bill in its tracks...the bill doesn't ever have to see the light of day for a floor vote. Politicians and committees "delay" votes on bills they want to kill all the time.

And single politicians do this all the time for a variety of reasons independent of any group politics. Not only that, but this was a bill which dealt with an existing law. I'm not seeing any campaigns in Florida to repeal that law.

Here is a federal bill to prevent states from trafficking minors across borders in order to circumvent their own state's parental consent laws. This bill never made it to Senate despite being introduced in 2005 and having passed the House.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-748

And all we have here is speculation about a bill that never got to a Senate vote and just got cleared off the books due to the normal time constraints placed on bills.

These three items do demonstrate there is a significant political force that has been very successful in preventing the implementation of parental consent laws across this country that cannot be ignored or dismissed as irrelevant, which was my initial point.

I'm sorry but those three items don't demonstrate anything especially if you actually look at them. The first bill was simply something designed to add on to an already present parental notification law. The failure of that doesn't show a significant political force preventing implementing of a parental consent/notification law since its already there. The second example doesn't even tell us why the bill never was voted on and it died because of the time limit. And the one case worker example is not something which one could say is going on all across the country.

This is of course not taking into account the fact that the majority of States already have parental consent/notification laws on the books. Can you show me the legislative efforts to get those laws removed? Somehow I doubt we'll see that. Face it, parental consent/notification laws are already on the books/constitutional and no one is trying to strip the states of those existing laws. And yet for some reason you consider there to be some "significant" political force stopping implementation of something which is implemented in a majority of the states...

 

[Marx]

HHS ANNOUNCES 'PREGNANCY ASSISTANCE FUND' TO SUPPORT PREGNANT WOMEN AND TEEN PARENTS
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...common-ground-abortion-plan/?fbid=uxLVEsu2a58

 

[Grievous]

They can refuse to do abortions? Good lord. The government really ought to change that. It's a doctors job to follow their patients wishes, no matter what their personal feelings are

I mean you wouldn't want to go in for a major operation and have the doctor say "Sorry, I have personal objections to surgical procedures. So we're going to just let you die"

I disagree with you so much that it is not even funny. First off if the government forced doctors to do what ever the patient wanted then they would be taking away the doctors's rights to say no. Second your logic about the doc letting you die because he does not want to fix you does not even really fit in with the abortion subject. I believe docs should only have to give a abortion if the women's life depends on it. Any other case I think the doc should have the right to say no.

 

[Addendum]

Perhaps they should have entered a different field rather than ob/gyn.

 

[Kelly]

I would hate to think how few OB-GYNs there would be left if they didn't go into that field because they did not want to do abortions. I believe a survey I read about this in Canada put 60% who were polled as not doing elective abortions. I haven't read of a survey here in the US.

 

[Kelly]

I haven't seen a poll on the # of Ob-gyns here in the US do abortions, but one poll I saw in Canada put 60.6% in Canada do not do abortions, and when asked why 50% said personal beliefs...that is up from 51% when the last poll was done back in 1991. I can assume that in the US they run somewhat more conservative.

I would hate to think how few ob-gyns we would have left if a litmus test was given in order for them to go into this type of medical care...

 

[Addendum]

It's not always delivering babies and doing the exams. I would rather they know what all ob-gyns face while they're in damned med school, rather than say "oh sorry, I don't feel comfortable having to do an abortion" once they finished their residency and become full doctors.

The same can be said about those pharmacists who refuse to do their job when it comes to filling prescriptions for birth control.

 

[Kelly]

It's not always delivering babies and doing the exams. I would rather they know what all ob-gyns face while they're in damned med school, rather than say "oh sorry, I don't feel comfortable having to do an abortion" once they finished their residency and become full doctors.

The same can be said about those pharmacists who refuse to do their job when it comes to filling prescriptions for birth control.

That isn't their fault, its not like they choose in "damned med school" to NOT learn about abortion. It isn't taught as a major portion of their curriculum...in some cases if mentioned, maybe in a 45 minute lecture, but it isn't part of their med school experience. In the US 12% of residency programs provide instruction in 1st trimester abortions, only 7% in 2nd trimester abortions....what bothers me about that is the fact that they will be doing abortions in some cases because of the life of the mother, and YES, it would be important that they get that training. In the Canada article I read it said that 50% offer the training as a very small portion of their program, but 50% of that is as an elective. With the fact that it is not a major part of their med school experience, its pretty evident that the med school knows that it is not going to be a major part of their practice. They are going to say no to a profession, because they do not desire to do what ends up probably a small part of their practice, except in situations of the mother's life, of what that profession entails, and knowing that if these women want abortions, they will find a doctor that does them? They are going to say no to that? Again, the numbers of ob gyns would plummet, and we don't have doctors to spare today. Also, once this new health care reform totally kicks in we will have even fewer.

If I wanted to have an abortion, and not able to afford it, or knowing what to do, in high school, etc....I would do one of two things, I would go to my counselor at school, who has numbers to give me of services that can answer my questions...(some schools cannot give out abortion information, but they can send them in the direction to get all alternative information). That place would probably be in touch with Planned Parenthood which would have a list of doctors that perform abortions. So whether my family's doctor believed in abortion or not, it would not matter. If I made that decision as an adult, and I knew that my ob gyn did not do abortions, I would immediately call Planned Parenthood, or other organization in my community that could give me names of those in my community that would do abortions. OR, go online and search... There are ways of finding those that will do abortions, so whether my doctor did or didn't, wouldn't really matter....If I wanted the abortion, I could get it. As far as Pharmacists, I don't know of one pharmacist that has turned down someone when getting their prescription for birth control. Also, damn if one doesn't, go about a mile down the road, the next one probably will.

I would love for ob gyn doctors that feel strongly about doing abortions, would be a part of programs in rural areas, some are. But, I do not agree that doctors should be forced. The trend for abortions in the US is also going down since the 1980s....I would hate to lose doctors....and IMO we would.

 

[Marx]

TEA PARTIER TO PREGNANT RAPE VICTIMS: 'TURN LEMONS INTO LEMONADE'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/08/sharron-angles-advice-for_n_639294.html

 

[VampElvis]

If she truly believes abortion is murder, her position is defensable. Really, if she honestly is convicted in this, could she take another position?

 

[Addendum]

But I thought the tea party was about smaller government. Outlawing a medical procedure doesn't sound small to me.

 

[Marx]

But I thought the tea party was about smaller government. Outlawing a medical procedure doesn't sound small to me.

That's something I have never understood - people who preach on and on about how they want smaller government...yet they support outlawing abortion and gay marriage.

 

[Hobgoblin]

That's something I have never understood - people who preach on and on about how they want smaller government...yet they support outlawing abortion and gay marriage.

They want smaller government and more respect paid to the Constitution....as long as the Bible agrees with the sentiment. If general sentiment or the Const doesnt agree with them, the Bible overrules small government and the Constitution.

 

[Addendum]

I'll take Dr. Seuss over the bible, but that's just me.

 

[StorminNorman]

But I thought the tea party was about smaller government. Outlawing a medical procedure doesn't sound small to me.

They want smaller government and more respect paid to the Constitution....as long as the Bible agrees with the sentiment. If general sentiment or the Const doesnt agree with them, the Bible overrules small government and the Constitution.

Come on, you guys are letting your own views getting away of well...logic.

Lets look at this again:

As Vamp said: "If she truly believes abortion is murder, her position is defensible."

Is opposition to MURDER a "Big Government" issue? Of course not. Even to the most extreme small government libertarian, the purpose of government is the protection of individual rights, which includes the defense of citizens from crimes such as murder. If one considers a fetus to be an "individual", which is the lynch pin of the entire anti-abortion debate, than it is the governments job, no matter the "size", to protect the fetus.

Instead of going with the auto-response, bash the Tea Party/Pro Life/opposition - take a second to actually, you know, consider her position.

 

[Addendum]

The constitution makes no mention of "natural conceived citizens". It's "natural born". Rights occur at birth.

 

[Marx]

DEAD ANIMALS WITH ANTI-ABORTION MESSAGES LEFT AND PLANNED PARENTHOOD CLINICS
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/22/dead-animals-left-at-two_n_656098.html

I hope I'm not the only one to see the irony in a pro-life activist leaving a dead animal at a clinic in protest.

 

[Marx]

GOP SENATE CANDIDATE ON ABORTION: 'I DON'T BELIEVE IN EXCEPTIONS OF RAPE OR INCEST'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/03/colorado-senate-candidate_n_669432.html

 

[mclay18]

GOP SENATE CANDIDATE ON ABORTION: 'I DON'T BELIEVE IN EXCEPTIONS OF RAPE OR INCEST'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/03/colorado-senate-candidate_n_669432.html

Idiocy knows no bounds.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I have a friend who has had three abortions.

The first was when she was 16. Too young to think about having kids, too stupid to think about condoms.

Then when we were in uni together, she got pregnant by her steady boyfriend. We were 20, but she didn't want to have kids. She was pregnant with twins. It really got to me, because she was showing by the time they were aborted.

When we finished uni, she got pregnant again. The third one was a bit more complicated. For one thing, they wouldn't put her under anaesthetic. She was made to watch the whole time, and she called me up in tears afterwards, talking about the blood and the fact they took the foetus into a chapel afterwards and stuff.

I really don't know how I feel about abortion. But I know that all of that makes me feel sick and sad.

 

[The Warden]

I have a friend who has had three abortions.

I really don't know how I feel about abortion. But I know that all of that makes me feel sick and sad.

I'm on the fence as well. I'm a father of a one year old and I'm so glad we decided to have him. In the beginning we considered an abortion out of fear but ultimately I couldn't do it and almost two years later my son is the best thing to happen to me. If your not going to use protection then I don't think you should be aloud to get an abortion. I think rape should be the only exception to that.

 

[Kent]

GOP SENATE CANDIDATE ON ABORTION: 'I DON'T BELIEVE IN EXCEPTIONS OF RAPE OR INCEST'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/03/colorado-senate-candidate_n_669432.html

To be fair, I think this seems consistent. If you think abortion is murder I mean.

Pro-lifers who believe in exceptions in the case of rape/incest seem to me like they have to, in the very least, be very confused about the whole thing.

"Abortion is the murder of an innocent, but if you're ever raped, then murdering an innocent is A-OK! "

Though it's a good kind of inconsistency since it means they're less likely to want to make these types of abortions (in case of rape/incest) illegal.

 

[Marx]

PALIN SAYS ABORTION IS 'KEY ISSUE' IN MIDTERMS
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/10/06/palin-abortion-essential-issue-in-midterm-elections/

When all else fails...push hot button issues to drive your base to the polls.

 

[Kelly]

She better watch it, because its this kind of stuff that turns Independents OFF....quick.

Stick to the issues at hand stupid, and abortion ISN'T one of them.

JOBS......JOBS...............JOBS.

 

[Grievous]

I'm on the fence as well. I'm a father of a one year old and I'm so glad we decided to have him. In the beginning we considered an abortion out of fear but ultimately I couldn't do it and almost two years later my son is the best thing to happen to me. If your not going to use protection then I don't think you should be aloud to get an abortion. I think rape should be the only exception to that.

Agree with most

I believe in the case of rape if the women does not want the child then the gov should help her find it a good home. Don't let the child pay for the sins of their farther. Abortion should only be used if the women's life is at risk.