Iron Fist Iron Fist FULL SEASON ONE Discussion Thread (NO SPOILER TAGS NECESSARY!)

[ZIPBAGS]

Davos going from the homeless vagrant look heading back home to a man in a suit and tie at a luxurious restaurant plotting with Joy to kill Danny....Did I miss an episode??

 

[Loki882]

Yeah it is. Fisk had ONE represented ONE group. For example, there are difference families/branches of the Russian Mob, but there was still only those two brothers representing ONE.

It never once comes across like she was part of The Hand. It always felt like Nobu represented The Hand, and she represented something else.

As for Joy, she didn't make sense for a lot of the season, including the end. It really felt like they didn't know what to do with her a lot of the time, so her character is a mess.

 

[Nathan]

But Iron Fist has established that there are different facets of the Hand. It's confusing but not contradictory.

Just completely unnecessary IMO. I'd be surprised if that plot point will have any relevance in the Defenders or future Iron Fist seasons, once Scott Buck is gone.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

Happy Iron Fist is the second highest viewed Defender after Cage

 

[The Infernal]

Maybe they'll explain in a later series that Gao isn't naturally a Hand member and account for her being from (or having visited) K'un-lun. Plus there were some heavy hints at her having seen previous Iron Fists. Would she have known the IF from the archive footage?

 

[Protar]

I just double checked and yea, Steel Serpent has nothing to do with The Hand. My bad. What is really odd is that the Steel Serpent is selling drugs in Daredevil, but helping Danny in Iron Fist.

This continuity is weird.

In the show it's mentioned that Gao is just using the steel serpent symbol to mock Danny. Presumably Davos has yet to take up the mantle of the steel serpent and may do so for the same reason.

 

[Flint Marko]

Yeah it is. Fisk had ONE represented ONE group. For example, there are difference families/branches of the Russian Mob, but there was still only those two brothers representing ONE.

It never once comes across like she was part of The Hand. It always felt like Nobu represented The Hand, and she represented something else.

Something "feeling" one way and then turning out to be another isn't a contradiction.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I just double checked and yea, Steel Serpent has nothing to do with The Hand. My bad. What is really odd is that the Steel Serpent is selling drugs in Daredevil, but helping Danny in Iron Fist.

Nothing and no one has been referred to as Steel Serpent in this show beyond the Heroin if I'm not mistaken (and I can't even recall if that is true).

Maybe they'll explain in a later series that Gao isn't naturally a Hand member and account for her being from (or having visited) K'un-lun. Plus there were some heavy hints at her having seen previous Iron Fists. Would she have known the IF from the archive footage?

Oh I think it's strongly hinted at that she's from K'un Lun. I suspect she left K'un Lun and joined the Hand according to the show's continuity.

 

[metaphysician]

This show was pure s**t. Take a drink everytime Claire reminds us how she knows one of the Defenders, you'll die of alcohol poisoning.

Maybe, but Claire's "seen this **** before" attitude was absolutely a good thing for the show. It provided a needed antidote to the show's own. . . bland self-seriousness, I'd call it.

 

[metaphysician]

Wait... does Gao being part of the hand contradict what came before? It made it seem like she was a part of her own separate criminal organization, but that's not explicitly contradictory.

I wouldn't call it an *explicit* contradiction, but it sure feels odd and not totally right. Its not just that DD never even hinted that she was Hand, and portrayed her with a completely different MO and personality than the Hand operations. Its also that, even in *this* show, her MO and personality just don't really fit with the other Hand operations. Bokuto's group at least involved secret blood draining in the basement, and the logical precursor for armies of indoctrinated ninjas.

Then you look at how Gao acted towards Danny. She seemed partially indifferent to his actions against the Hand, and mostly like she was testing him. Even her attempts to bribe and manipulate the heroes largely felt perfunctory, given they all but said she was in no personal danger and could escape at any time.

Plus, think about how Bokuto moved in and took Gao prisoner. It didn't seem like the actions of an enemy, but it also didn't really feel like an internal power struggle either. Or at least, if it was an internal power struggle, the "internal" part was so heavily deemphasized it was barely there. The measures he had to take to gain access to the Rand resources were scarcely different than if Gao's operation were 100% independent.

It just. . . the pieces don't fit. If Gao is Hand, she's clearly a super high ranking Hand who is using the Hand to pursue her own interests, and is indifferent to it otherwise. Of course, why she tolerated Bokuto ganking her operation and confining her becomes a mystery.

( I suspect "mystery" is the right answer: Scott Buck was too interested in producing mystery without actually having a good idea of what would work. The Defenders showrunner might have some mess to clean up, worldbuilding-wise. )

 

[metaphysician]

She was pushing Steel Serpent Heroin in Daredevil, so she was always with The Hand in some capacity. I don't know why people are saying she wasn't.

No, she was always a villain. It was only in Iron Fist that any connection was made between Gao's operation and the Hand. Prior to that it was just. . .her operation.

Hey, here's a no-prize explanation they could use: Gao isn't part of the Hand, and never has been. Her involvement with Rand, and her heroin operation, were her own thing for her own as-yet-unexplained reasons. Harold only thought of her as Hand, because it *was* Hand magic that brought him back to life. How did that happen?

Madame Gao subcontracted. She essentially hired the Hand to resurrect Harold, for her plans. Harold thought she was Hand because it was a convenient way for her to keep things simple.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

For those interested my Iron Fist Spoiler Review Discussion is up.

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...ron+Fist+Spoiler+Review:+Bernie+Wrightson.mp3

 

[metaphysician]

Davos going from the homeless vagrant look heading back home to a man in a suit and tie at a luxurious restaurant plotting with Joy to kill Danny....Did I miss an episode??

Yeah, that whole scene felt random and out of nowhere. Davos much more slick and mastermindy, Joy as randomly vengeful against Danny, and Gao. . . well, *Gao* I can buy hanging out with anybody, but I can't see why either of them would want to be involved with her.

 

[audierules]

Just watched the MovieBob Review and ouch, he does not hold back.

yet he was totally spot on. I agree 100% with him.

 

[Flint Marko]

I wouldn't call it an *explicit* contradiction, but it sure feels odd and not totally right. Its not just that DD never even hinted that she was Hand, and portrayed her with a completely different MO and personality than the Hand operations. Its also that, even in *this* show, her MO and personality just don't really fit with the other Hand operations. Bokuto's group at least involved secret blood draining in the basement, and the logical precursor for armies of indoctrinated ninjas.

Then you look at how Gao acted towards Danny. She seemed partially indifferent to his actions against the Hand, and mostly like she was testing him. Even her attempts to bribe and manipulate the heroes largely felt perfunctory, given they all but said she was in no personal danger and could escape at any time.

Plus, think about how Bokuto moved in and took Gao prisoner. It didn't seem like the actions of an enemy, but it also didn't really feel like an internal power struggle either. Or at least, if it was an internal power struggle, the "internal" part was so heavily deemphasized it was barely there. The measures he had to take to gain access to the Rand resources were scarcely different than if Gao's operation were 100% independent.

It just. . . the pieces don't fit. If Gao is Hand, she's clearly a super high ranking Hand who is using the Hand to pursue her own interests, and is indifferent to it otherwise. Of course, why she tolerated Bokuto ganking her operation and confining her becomes a mystery.

( I suspect "mystery" is the right answer: Scott Buck was too interested in producing mystery without actually having a good idea of what would work. The Defenders showrunner might have some mess to clean up, worldbuilding-wise. )

I don't disagree with any of this. I'd like to think that everything happened the way it did because TPTB know where they are going with the defenders, and all of this will be cleared up or illuminated in some capacity.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Post Defenders I think I will feel about The Hand the way I do about Hydra... Give them a rest for a long time.

 

[metaphysician]

I wouldn't disagree with that. Hopefully the plot of Defenders has the Hand's power largely broken, so they can recede into the background as secondary villains. Not like they don't have plenty of material for further seasons without needing the Hand. Daredevil has Bullseye, the Return of the Kingpin, and various other stuff. Iron Fist has Davos, the Seven Cities of Heaven, and various other stuff.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I wouldn't disagree with that. Hopefully the plot of Defenders has the Hand's power largely broken, so they can recede into the background as secondary villains. Not like they don't have plenty of material for further seasons without needing the Hand. Daredevil has Bullseye, the Return of the Kingpin, and various other stuff. Iron Fist has Davos, the Seven Cities of Heaven, and various other stuff.

The heroes need to be changed and set on new paths post Defenders.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Just finished Iron Fist....boy that was a struggle. This show is nowhere near the same league as Jessica Jones or Daredevil and it's really disappointing to see Marvel treat this character, who had a lot of potential, like a stepping stone. It's clear that the producers and the show runners didn't understand or know how to handle Danny so they put out the most mediocre and uninspired crap just to get it over with. They should have just introduced him at the end of 'The Defenders' so it would have given them more time to find a show runner passionate enough to tell Danny's story to it's fullest potential, as well as an actor competent enough to truly embody the character. What a waste of an origin tale.

In order to cure my disappointment I'm watching Luke Cage. I haven't even gotten past the first scene and this show already has more character and "fun" in it's first 10 minutes than all of Iron Fist. I'm kinda glad I saved this one for last so I can wash the boredom out of my eyes and ears.

 

[chamber-music]

But does the Hand in the comics have anything to do with the Steel Serpent? I was never actually a big Iron Fist fan, so I basically know nothing. But from googling, I haven't found anything on a Hand/Steel Serpent connection. In Daredevil you had the Russians, Chinese and Japanese work together, but there never was any sort of tighter connection hinted at, between Gao and the Hand.

In Iron Fist, it seems like Scott Buck decided to simply throw all Asians into the same box. So Madame Gao who didn't seem to have any kind of connection to the Hand, suddenly leads her own separate faction.

As Bokuto said The Hand has had different factions (The Snakeroot Clan being one of them for example). They have multiple regional leaders in the comics. They are like Hydra in that regard.

Yeah it is. Fisk had ONE represented ONE group. For example, there are difference families/branches of the Russian Mob, but there was still only those two brothers representing ONE.

It never once comes across like she was part of The Hand. It always felt like Nobu represented The Hand, and she represented something else.

The Hand either infiltrated or pretended to be a part of different criminal groups. It appeared that Nobu was operating under the guise of Yakuza and had infiltrated Roxxon. In Daredevil season 2 Matt thought the Japense punks were Yakuza at first. Madame Gao was operating under the guise of the Triads and infiltrated Rand industries.

 

[Murdock103]

Am I the only person that's really enjoying the Meachums? Whenever Harold or Ward are on screen I perk up. Not Joy, to be fair, but Harold and Ward both get double thumbs up. But I say this having only just started episode 10.

 

[writer0327]

Am I the only person that's really enjoying the Meachums? Whenever Harold or Ward are on screen I perk up. Not Joy, to be fair, but Harold and Ward both get double thumbs up. But I say this having only just started episode 10.

Not at all, they are definitely two of my favorite Marvel Netflix characters. So much fun, both of them. The actors did a phenomenal job.

 

[TheVileOne]

As Bokuto said The Hand has had different factions (The Snakeroot Clan being one of them for example). They have multiple regional leaders in the comics. They are like Hydra in that regard.


The Hand either infiltrated or pretended to be a part of different criminal groups. It appeared that Nobu was operating under the guise of Yakuza and had infiltrated Roxxon. In Daredevil season 2 Matt thought the Japense punks were Yakuza at first. Madame Gao was operating under the guise of the Triads and infiltrated Rand industries.

How does Nobu not know who Madame Gao is and that she's part of the Hand? There's no way. Madame Gao would obviously know that Nobu is not Yakuza either.

 

[DawnWarrior]

I remember back when Finn Jones was first cast, and a lot of people were upset that they had cast yet another white guy in another major super-hero role instead of doing some blind-casting and maybe having an Asian guy be the star of this martial-arts show. I took the approach of, "Okay, he's white in the comics anyway, they COULD have gone outside the box with the casting, but they decided not to, no big deal." I mean, even in the comics they've addressed the culture clash of this American blonde-haired trust-fund kid being chosen to be this ultimate kung-fu warrior, so it's a part of the source material. I thought for sure that they would do something with that on the show. JJ did groundbreaking work getting into the topics of PTSD and sexual assault, LC was steeped in Harlem culture, so I had expected that IF would have the self-awareness to address this "boy, this kung-fu master sure is white" business in some satisfying way. But they didn't address it AT ALL, instead playing it completely straight. Not one word about how out of place Danny must have felt in a place like K'un L'un (he talks about the place constantly but we never even get a flashback there), or we get scenes of Danny schooling Colleen Wing on the merits of martial arts in her own dojo. And all the while he never comes off as that good of a martial artist; rather than showing how his 15 years of kung-fu training have made him Zen and centered, he's generally prone to pouting and temper tantrums every other scene. So for all the people who were mad about the casting of another white dude to play Iron Fist, I'm left wondering if they might have been right.

No matter how much leeway I give the show as I try to dig around for the good elements of it, the whole thing inevitably comes off as a huge letdown. I really feel sorry for Finn Jones in all this as well; this is his first starring role and was supposed to be his chance to step out of the GoT ensemble and really kick off his career, develop a following and be the face of a cool new part of the MCU just like Cox and Ritter and Colter did, and now it's like his reputation has been poisoned and he's worse off than before.

 

[DorkyFresh]

Great assessment. I totally agree. Kudos!