Why do people say Zack Snyder doesn’t respect comics?

[Babillygunn]

Zac Snyder respects and loves the characters but he wants to ask and show the tuff questions that most people would only really answer in an elseworld tale or one shot and not in main continuity like a film series.
He wants them challenged and dragged through the ringer.
His DCEU are the heros we know and love. With characters like Batman and Superman that have been adapted numerous times in film, he doesn't just want to just do the same old thing. He wants to show us that these characters aren't perfect and are flawed like us.

Yeah. I’m not getting sucked into this discussion again. I’ll see myself out.

 

[Batmannerism]

Yeah. I’m not getting sucked into this discussion again. I’ll see myself out.

View attachment 35582

Right behind you !

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Zac Snyder respects and loves the characters but he wants to ask and show the tuff questions that most people would only really answer in an elseworld tale or one shot and not in main continuity like a film series.
He wants them challenged and dragged through the ringer.
His DCEU are the heros we know and love. With characters like Batman and Superman that have been adapted numerous times in film, he doesn't just want to just do the same old thing. He wants to show us that these characters aren't perfect and are flawed like us.

If this is true, why does he seem determined that they need to "grow up"?

 

[Batmannerism]

If this is true, why does he seem determined that they need to "grow up"?

Bro, don't get sucked in ! run while you still can.

 

[Sorath]

The problem with Zack is that is one of those guys who is very good at analyzing characters and their motives. He very good and exploring theme and ideas. That makes him a perfect director for stand alone films. I think if he where to just take The Dark Knight Returns or Kingdom Come and turn them in to a film he would be perfect.

The problem with Zack (It's not all on Zack a lot of blame falls on WB as well as the writers) is he tends to lean to much on explore characters and motives, themes and ideas. This is bad when your trying to develop a shared universe. Yes you need to explore characters and their motives but not to point where it drags the film down and sucks the fun out of the film.

Marvel explores their characters and their motives. However they do it in a very subtle way. They do it through the course of a series of films. They don't try and slap as much in to one film as they can. Marvel made the films fun and enjoyable to watch. More importantly they brought the right talent. They also learn from their mistakes. When something not working they don't just out right abandon it they shift things figure out how to fix it so that it does work. Marvel took their time with the films.

What comes down to all the things that made Marvel films so successful is all the errors that made the DC films not work. WB is so hell bent on being so different from Marvel that they can't see that they need to use Marvel as a blue print on how to do it write. They don't have to copy Marvel but learning from their success and failures could help them a great deal.

This is what they do with comic books. Both Marvel and DC learn from one another and when they see something that works they take it and use it. They been doing it for years. That's exactly what WB should be doing. Taking what Marve/Disney has done and use it and if they did along the way they will come up with things that are just as brilliant and work that Marvel/Disney didn't think of. When that happens Marvel/Disney will take those Ideas and use them.

Bottom line is this is not all on Zack. It falls on all writers but most importantly it falls on WB. Nothing gets green lite with out their approval.

 

[Sorath]

He sure has come close to, even tried to kill the Joker.



But he probably would be a lot more brooding and less sure of himself if Jonathan Kent or someone else close to him died especially in a traumatic way, that's a change to the character's story/background and resulting personality where the different personality seem pretty in-line with how the comic book character would react and be different.

Actually original Jonathan Kent did die before he ever became Superman. It was traumatic for him because with all his powers he still couldn't save his Jonathan. Superman has never really been a brooding character the close you get to that was during Grounded. The only reason he was Brooding was because his emotions where being amplified by an Kryptonain device. He even admits at the end had it not been for the Kryptonain device effecting him he would have gotten through his emotions a lot sooner.

Superman has always been an inspiration for hope. I would even argue in the darkest moments is when he holds on to hope and becomes a beacon of hope even more so. In grounded he lost felt disconnected from the people and world that he went on a walk about to try and reconnect with people and world. This the very difference between Snyder version of Superman and Superman from comics. Snyder Superman didn't care about the hearings or what people though of him. He didn't care that people feared him and why they feared him. He ignored the question that people had. Superman would never do this. He would be the first to step forward and answer the people as much as he possible can. Superman is one of most powerful characters in DC universe. He could bring the DC to its knees if he wanted to but he doesn't. He doesn't see him self as above the law. He will hold him self accountable to the law even though he really doesn't have to because there very few people who can really stop him.

This is how Superman has always been. Snyder completely missed the mark with Superman. Not because he doesn't get Superman its because he wasn't to over analyze a character that shouldn't be over Analyzed.

 

[Superchan]

Zac Snyder respects and loves the characters but he wants to ask and show the tuff questions that most people would only really answer in an elseworld tale or one shot and not in main continuity like a film series.
He wants them challenged and dragged through the ringer.
His DCEU are the heros we know and love. With characters like Batman and Superman that have been adapted numerous times in film, he doesn't just want to just do the same old thing. He wants to show us that these characters aren't perfect and are flawed like us.

I don't know whether he loves and respects characters or not but one thing we can say for sure about Snyder is that he is "Randian" when it comes to his work. I am ofcourse referring to Rand's fountain head, a book about a character who has stuck to his artistic vision regardless of reception and while I think it's an admirable quality that an artist must have to some degree, one must remember that when a studio gives you 200+ million dollars to make a movie that is meant to appeal to all quadrants, even the most ardent self proclaimed "artists" must be willing to make a modicum of sacrifice to create a more appealing product for mass consumption. This is something that Zack hasn't really learned yet (or maybe something that he's forgotten), which is why his last legit hit was all the way back in 2007 (300).
His DCEU heroes are most certainly not the characters "we know and love", they might for you and that's perfectly fine, but when you say "we" I am assuming you're talking about the fans and the general public and if that's the case then the critical failure and underwhelming box office clearly say otherwise.
It's perfectly fine that Zack wants those characters challenged and put through the ringer, what isn't fine is trying to deconstruct (Snyder's wife's exact word) these characters without first successfully constructing them, because that's what Zack was trying to do in BvS and he fell flat on his face.
If Zack wanted to show us that Superman and Batman are flawed like us then he knows even less about these characters than even I thought possible. Superman is an altruist, an embodiment of hope and wish fulfillment while Batman is a disturbed, obsessed, self sacrificing billionaire who happens to be of the richest, smartest, strongest, most athletic Mary-Sues in fiction, so neither of these characters where created to be the everyman, even though one of them is a working class immigrant, while the other is a human being. If Snyder wants to give us an everyman he should consider Peter Parker but I guarantee you that Feige would look at Snyder's critical and commercial record and say "No thanks".
As for not " wanting to just do the same old thing" well then that's too bad because that's exactly what he did with MOS. His mopey, emo, "existential crisis" Superman is a carbon copy of Singer's ill fated Superman, while his less than subtle "Superman = Jesus" allegory is a Dick Donner exclusive. Admittedly the film has it's fair share of original stuff, but when it comes to the film's most important element i.e. CK/Superman, Zack unfortunately went back to the well.

Don't be surprised if Snyder has even more projects lined up in the DCEU after the Snyder's Justice League Cut is released and even more so if its a hit. He supposedly has even more say then before.
Supposedly Snyder isn't right for comic book adaptions but he's done 300, Watchmen, Man Of Steel, BVS Ultimate Edition, His massive Justice League Cut ect. Had main involvement in casting the DCEU and producing those other DCEU films.
Hes done comic book movies with the biggest people in Comics for 15 years. Yeah he isnt right for Comic book adaptions but hey thats just an opinion right.

I am sure the Snyder cut will be a big draw and then Snyder will have more DC projects down the line, but it won't be on the big screen, he'll probably be the go to guy for the modern day equivalent of straight to video i.e. streaming.
He can make as many comicbook adaptations as he wants but as long as those adaptations aren't successful then not many people will consider him right for comicbook adaptations.
You can raise your hand in class and answer every question the teacher asks but if you answer every question wrong then no one will consider you the teacher's pet.
Watchmen was a major boxoffice flop (180 mill worldwide on a 130 mill budget is a disaster if you know anything about how hollywood finanaces work) while MOS and BvS were both critical flops and boxoffice disappointments even if they did infact make money.
As I stated previously, when making massive blockbuster films you need to appeal to the mass audiences to be considered the right choice for making those blockbusters in the first place.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Batman is Mary Sue? That's news to me.

I wonder what Snyder's Peter Parker would've been like.

 

[Herofan]

Superman has never really been a brooding character the close you get to that was during Grounded. The only reason he was Brooding was because his emotions where being amplified by an Kryptonain device. He even admits at the end had it not been for the Kryptonain device effecting him he would have gotten through his emotions a lot sooner.

Superman has always been an inspiration for hope. I would even argue in the darkest moments is when he holds on to hope and becomes a beacon of hope even more so.

What about when and after he decided to execute the alternate universe Zod?

He doesn't see him self as above the law. He will hold him self accountable to the law even though he really doesn't have to because there very few people who can really stop him.

But the law and especially the authorities are not always just and so he shouldn't always be subservient to them, I don't think it's against the character to have him feel that.

 

[Superchan]

Batman is Mary Sue? That's news to me.

I wonder what Snyder's Peter Parker would've been like.

He's one of the richest and smartest characters in the DCU in addition to being one of the best fighters. He's also the greatest athlete alive, the world's greatest detective and the world's greatest escape artist. The guy can do it all, hence a Mary Sue.....right? or maybe I misunderstood the term?

 

[batfreakforever]

I don't know whether he loves and respects characters or not but one thing we can say for sure about Snyder is that he is "Randian" when it comes to his work. I am ofcourse referring to Rand's fountain head, a book about a character who has stuck to his artistic vision regardless of reception and while I think it's an admirable quality that an artist must have to some degree, one must remember that when a studio gives you 200+ million dollars to make a movie that is meant to appeal to all quadrants, even the most ardent self proclaimed "artists" must be willing to make a modicum of sacrifice to create a more appealing product for mass consumption. This is something that Zack hasn't really learned yet (or maybe something that he's forgotten), which is why his last legit hit was all the way back in 2007 (300).
His DCEU heroes are most certainly not the characters "we know and love", they might for you and that's perfectly fine, but when you say "we" I am assuming you're talking about the fans and the general public and if that's the case then the critical failure and underwhelming box office clearly say otherwise.
It's perfectly fine that Zack wants those characters challenged and put through the ringer, what isn't fine is trying to deconstruct (Snyder's wife's exact word) these characters without first successfully constructing them, because that's what Zack was trying to do in BvS and he fell flat on his face.
If Zack wanted to show us that Superman and Batman are flawed like us then he knows even less about these characters than even I thought possible. Superman is an altruist, an embodiment of hope and wish fulfillment while Batman is a disturbed, obsessed, self sacrificing billionaire who happens to be of the richest, smartest, strongest, most athletic Mary-Sues in fiction, so neither of these characters where created to be the everyman, even though one of them is a working class immigrant, while the other is a human being. If Snyder wants to give us an everyman he should consider Peter Parker but I guarantee you that Feige would look at Snyder's critical and commercial record and say "No thanks".
As for not " wanting to just do the same old thing" well then that's too bad because that's exactly what he did with MOS. His mopey, emo, "existential crisis" Superman is a carbon copy of Singer's ill fated Superman, while his less than subtle "Superman = Jesus" allegory is a Dick Donner exclusive. Admittedly the film has it's fair share of original stuff, but when it comes to the film's most important element i.e. CK/Superman, Zack unfortunately went back to the well.




I am sure the Snyder cut will be a big draw and then Snyder will have more DC projects down the line, but it won't be on the big screen, he'll probably be the go to guy for the modern day equivalent of straight to video i.e. streaming.
He can make as many comicbook adaptations as he wants but as long as those adaptations aren't successful then not many people will consider him right for comicbook adaptations.
You can raise your hand in class and answer every question the teacher asks but if you answer every question wrong then no one will consider you the teacher's pet.
Watchmen was a major boxoffice flop (180 mill worldwide on a 130 mill budget is a disaster if you know anything about how hollywood finanaces work) while MOS and BvS were both critical flops and boxoffice disappointments even if they did infact make money.
As I stated previously, when making massive blockbuster films you need to appeal to the mass audiences to be considered the right choice for making those blockbusters in the first place.

For you to say he maybe doesn't love and respect the characters just shows how little you listen to Zac and the way he talks about the characters and if he didn't respect theses characters the actors and writers and everyone else who works with him wouldn't have the highest respect they have for him.
Don't go throwing box office numbers at me because to try and justify why you think Zac doesn't respect comics. Box office has nothing to do with if he respects the comics or not. His Watchmen movie is held in high respect. So is his 300 movie and Man of Steel. Batman V Superman Ultimate Edition is highly respected too by fans. Thats why there was a campaign to finish his Justice League and have it released. People loved what he did with the characters and want it continued. Man of Steel was a box office hit. Thats why they gave him the DCEU. Zac done half a dozen comic book movies and keeps getting chances so obviously he's doing something right for the fans and studio.
Really people need to stop pretending he doesn't know what he's doing or hates the characters just because it doesn't fall in line with their vision.
He must be the luckiest man in Hollywood to be given so many chances at the big comic characters if he has flop after flop after flop as you say.
You make it sound like Zac is f'ed no matter what he does.
You talk about him going back to the well and doing the same as before but Zac gets told off by fans for not doing things as like before. Zac had to do Sups origin again as a starting point and built from that.
To say Zac did the same as beforeb shows you need to listen more because he's been criticized over and over for doing the opposite. Zac's Superman is nothing like Singer's Superman who is actually Donners Superman. Zac's Superman is new and fresh on film. People complain about Superman not being hopefull and sad which somehow makes him Emo. Come on man. He's allowed to worry about things and be upset with the world but hes still hopeful and chooses humanity over his own people in the end. He loves Lois and his human Mother and Father unconditionally and saves people in the film but because he isn't getting cats out of tree's and saving people during the Zod fight or smiling (that ones most stupid of all the criticisms of Zac's Superman) he isn't Superman wtf.
Batman's a mary sue. Batman isn't that. Far from it. Batman is always been the most relatable of all the Superheroes because he's human. Everyone says that regardless that he's a billionaire. You can become Batman if you train hard enough and have endless money.

 

[hellblazer103]

Gee. Why would anyone say that a guy who says things like :

I had a buddy who tried getting me into “normal” comic books, but I was all like, “No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.” I was a little broken, that way. So when Watchmen came along, I was, “This is more my scene.”

Everyone says that about "Batman Begins." "Batman's dark." I'm like, "Okay, no, Batman's cool." He gets to go to a Tibetan monastery and be trained by ninjas. Okay? I want to do that. But he doesn't, like, get raped in prison. That could happen in my movie. If you want to talk about dark, that's how that would go.

, Who may be okay at making a scene LOOK like a certain comic panel or adapting something superficially, but failing to capture or understand (or actually care for ) the actual essence behind said comics, who ignores fundamental aspects of certain characters in favor of more uber dArK boomboom, who's basically the Michael Bay of CBMs....

Why would anyone ever think he doesn't actually respect comics? It just baffles me...

I'm sure this has all been said before tho

 

[Superchan]

For you to say he maybe doesn't love and respect the characters just shows how little you listen to Zac and the way he talks about the characters

Good lord you are the 2nd Zack Snyder fanatic on this forum who finds ok to put words in my mouth. Since the start of this topic I never once said he doesn't respect the characters or comics, so please, PLEASE read my post more carefully!

Don't go throwing box office numbers at me because to try and justify why you think Zac doesn't respect comics.

PLEASE read my post more carefully and please stop putting words in my mouth. PLEASE!
As for throwing box office numbers at you, well it was you who said that Zack Snyder is the right guy to make comicbook movies but the boxoffice multipliers and final numbers indicate that to the audience he is NOT the right guy to do comic books. Now if you like his work, then that's perfectly fine and boxffice numbers shouldn't matter but when a studio gives the man 100s of millions to make movies that appeal to the mass audience and they end up failing or disappointing both at the box office and critical reception then from a business point of view he is NOT the right guy for comicbook movies.

Box office has nothing to do with if he respects the comics or not

You're right and I never said it was and if you actually read my post more carefully you would realize that I never said Snyder doesn't respect comicbooks or characters, I used boxoffice numbers to dispute your claim that Zack is the right guy to make comicbook movies when financially and critically, from a studio's perspective, he isn't, but that should not affect your enjoyment of his films.

His Watchmen movie is held in high respect. So is his 300 movie and Man of Steel. Batman V Superman Ultimate Edition is highly respected too by fans.

Actually Watchmen was positively reviewed (I liked the film) but a 68% critic rating isn't high respect and neither is 300's low 60s rating. Btw I liked 300 as well.
To say that MOS and BvS are highly respected is simply not true, it's one thing to be an ardent Snyder fan but it's another to ignore facts. MOS and BvS divided critics and fans right in the middle and btw BvS the TC was also Snyder's work and that got a mighty 20 something percent approval from citics and remains to this day the record holder for the worst multiplier for any film to open over a 100 million in hollywood history!
I will say it again, no one can take away your enjoyment of Zack Snyder films and I never said that he doesn't respect comicbooks but don't let your overzealous support for Snyder blind you from the simple fact that the audience and critics have rejected his superhero films.

He must be the luckiest man in Hollywood to be given so many chances at the big comic characters if he has flop after flop after flop as you say.
You make it sound like Zac is f'ed no matter what he does.

He probably is the luckiest man in hollywood, because 5 other directors passed on MOS when approached by Chris Nolan, Zack was the only one who said yes, probably to save his failing career because when I said he had back to back to back flops, I was referencing box office numbers and numbers don't lie even if you choose to ignore them.
When it comes to superhero films, yeah, Zack tend to s**t the bed, again it's not just me saying this, it's the critics, alot of the fans and most importantly the audience.

To say Zac did the same as beforeb shows you need to listen more because he's been criticized over and over for doing the opposite. Zac's Superman is nothing like Singer's Superman who is actually Donners Superman.

I don't need to listen, what I did was actually watch SR and MOS and in my opinion Singer and Snyder's Superman were the same and again the whole Superman=jesus angle was started by Donner and then imitated by Singer and then imitated by Snyder, so Zack Superman isn't even remotely original.
Singer's Superman is supposed to Donner's but he ended up very different, which is why STM was a massive hit and SR was massive disappointment. You can go read the reviews for SR to realize that most critics had an issue with how different Routh's Superman was to Reeve's and how muted the former was compared to the latter.

People complain about Superman not being hopefull and sad which somehow makes him Emo. Come on man.............................

To me and to - as you yourself said - people Snyder's superman was mopey, emo, dialogue challenged and a nihilist (in BvS) and that is the opinion of the majority and no matter how hard you try you won't change my mind or the minds of those people, so just accept that we see Snyder's Superman differently and more negatively than you do, but that shouldn't take away from you liking Snyder's Superman.

Batman's a mary sue. Batman isn't that. Far from it. Batman is always been the most relatable of all the Superheroes because he's human. Everyone says that regardless that he's a billionaire. You can become Batman if you train hard enough and have endless money.

I think he is, a mary sue is a character that is so capable, it comes off as perfect and to me Batman is a genuis level billionare, who is one of the world's greatest fighters and the greatest athlete, detective and escape artist, not to mention he's been shown to know everything about science and has in the past beaten the likes of Darksied and the white martians and why Frank Miller and many batman fanboys like to argue that he can beat superman as well. All that to me makes Batman a Mary Sue and if you think that all one needs is money and hard training to become Batman in the real world then..............well honestly I don't know what to tell ya, maybe it's time to put down the comicbook and get out to the real world for alittle bit.

 

[OutOfBoose]

He's one of the richest and smartest characters in the DCU in addition to being one of the best fighters. He's also the greatest athlete alive, the world's greatest detective and the world's greatest escape artist. The guy can do it all, hence a Mary Sue.....right? or maybe I misunderstood the term?

Meaning of the term is out there. Batman doesn't fit, as far as I can see.

 

[Batmannerism]

Good lord you are the 2nd Zack Snyder fanatic on this forum who finds ok to put words in my mouth. Since the start of this topic I never once said he doesn't respect the characters or comics, so please, PLEASE read my post more carefully!



PLEASE read my post more carefully and please stop putting words in my mouth. PLEASE!
As for throwing box office numbers at you, well it was you who said that Zack Snyder is the right guy to make comicbook movies but the boxoffice multipliers and final numbers indicate that to the audience he is NOT the right guy to do comic books. Now if you like his work, then that's perfectly fine and boxffice numbers shouldn't matter but when a studio gives the man 100s of millions to make movies that appeal to the mass audience and they end up failing or disappointing both at the box office and critical reception then from a business point of view he is NOT the right guy for comicbook movies.




You're right and I never said it was and if you actually read my post more carefully you would realize that I never said Snyder doesn't respect comicbooks or characters, I used boxoffice numbers to dispute your claim that Zack is the right guy to make comicbook movies when financially and critically, from a studio's perspective, he isn't, but that should not affect your enjoyment of his films.



Actually Watchmen was positively reviewed (I liked the film) but a 68% critic rating isn't high respect and neither is 300's low 60s rating. Btw I liked 300 as well.
To say that MOS and BvS are highly respected is simply not true, it's one thing to be an ardent Snyder fan but it's another to ignore facts. MOS and BvS divided critics and fans right in the middle and btw BvS the TC was also Snyder's work and that got a mighty 20 something percent approval from citics and remains to this day the record holder for the worst multiplier for any film to open over a 100 million in hollywood history!
I will say it again, no one can take away your enjoyment of Zack Snyder films and I never said that he doesn't respect comicbooks but don't let your overzealous support for Snyder blind you from the simple fact that the audience and critics have rejected his superhero films.



He probably is the luckiest man in hollywood, because 5 other directors passed on MOS when approached by Chris Nolan, Zack was the only one who said yes, probably to save his failing career because when I said he had back to back to back flops, I was referencing box office numbers and numbers don't lie even if you choose to ignore them.
When it comes to superhero films, yeah, Zack tend to s**t the bed, again it's not just me saying this, it's the critics, alot of the fans and most importantly the audience.



I don't need to listen, what I did was actually watch SR and MOS and in my opinion Singer and Snyder's Superman were the same and again the whole Superman=jesus angle was started by Donner and then imitated by Singer and then imitated by Snyder, so Zack Superman isn't even remotely original.
Singer's Superman is supposed to Donner's but he ended up very different, which is why STM was a massive hit and SR was massive disappointment. You can go read the reviews for SR to realize that most critics had an issue with how different Routh's Superman was to Reeve's and how muted the former was compared to the latter.



To me and to - as you yourself said - people Snyder's superman was mopey, emo, dialogue challenged and a nihilist (in BvS) and that is the opinion of the majority and no matter how hard you try you won't change my mind or the minds of those people, so just accept that we see Snyder's Superman differently and more negatively than you do, but that shouldn't take away from you liking Snyder's Superman.



I think he is, a mary sue is a character that is so capable, it comes off as perfect and to me Batman is a genuis level billionare, who is one of the world's greatest fighters and the greatest athlete, detective and escape artist, not to mention he's been shown to know everything about science and has in the past beaten the likes of Darksied and the white martians and why Frank Miller and many batman fanboys like to argue that he can beat superman as well. All that to me makes Batman a Mary Sue and if you think that all one needs is money and hard training to become Batman in the real world then..............well honestly I don't know what to tell ya, maybe it's time to put down the comicbook and get out to the real world for alittle bit.

Occasionally I look back at this unhappy little thread and I'm sorry to see you got sucked in.
Dude I tried to warn you, the only place you're going to get with this guy is frustrated.

Btw that metaphor of the kid who answers everything wrong - really clear and succinct way to sum up Snyder's track record. If this guy can't or won't acknowledge the facts there's no point trying to explain anything.

Based on his posts he considers Snyder the perfect guy, who's tried to challenge us as an audience but we're all too stupid or unenlightened to get it ( " we" means you, me, most people on this forum, nearly 3/4 of all the critics who reviewed B v S and everyone who saw it once and didn't want a second viewing - which led to the historic drop off in box office sales - lucky for us dummies the guys over at marvel make entertaining films with likeable characters, rather than the high concept art that Snyder makes. I mean, WB don't care about making money or good reviews, it's all about the art right ?

Okay I have to stop there because my sarcasm is getting too much, even for me.

I will say that IMO Cavill Superman in Man of Steel > Routh Superman for 2 reasons :

1)He has a few moments, as Superman, where we do get behind him. For me the first flight sequence was magic, in part because it's the first time we see him smile. Also, when he interacts with Ma Kent and then when he gets arrested by the army and tells them in no uncertain terms that they can't push him around. The visual image of him floating above the tanks and soldiers is pretty striking.

For me, Routh's Superman only really shines at the end of the film when he lifts the rogue continent and chucks it into the sun, otherwise he's pretty lame. And then there's the weird stuff with the kid....

2) In his fight against the evil Kryptonians Cav- El pulls some straight up Superman fight moves, right out of the comics and/or animated series. That was cool, and got to give Snyder some props for that.

Sadly, by the time we get to B v S he's less engaging. Oh well, better stop here because this is well traveled ground.

Cheers.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

For you to say he maybe doesn't love and respect the characters just shows how little you listen to Zac and the way he talks about the characters and if he didn't respect theses characters the actors and writers and everyone else who works with him wouldn't have the highest respect they have for him.
Don't go throwing box office numbers at me because to try and justify why you think Zac doesn't respect comics. Box office has nothing to do with if he respects the comics or not. His Watchmen movie is held in high respect. So is his 300 movie and Man of Steel. Batman V Superman Ultimate Edition is highly respected too by fans. Thats why there was a campaign to finish his Justice League and have it released. People loved what he did with the characters and want it continued. Man of Steel was a box office hit. Thats why they gave him the DCEU. Zac done half a dozen comic book movies and keeps getting chances so obviously he's doing something right for the fans and studio.
Really people need to stop pretending he doesn't know what he's doing or hates the characters just because it doesn't fall in line with their vision.
He must be the luckiest man in Hollywood to be given so many chances at the big comic characters if he has flop after flop after flop as you say.
You make it sound like Zac is f'ed no matter what he does.
You talk about him going back to the well and doing the same as before but Zac gets told off by fans for not doing things as like before. Zac had to do Sups origin again as a starting point and built from that.
To say Zac did the same as beforeb shows you need to listen more because he's been criticized over and over for doing the opposite. Zac's Superman is nothing like Singer's Superman who is actually Donners Superman. Zac's Superman is new and fresh on film. People complain about Superman not being hopefull and sad which somehow makes him Emo. Come on man. He's allowed to worry about things and be upset with the world but hes still hopeful and chooses humanity over his own people in the end. He loves Lois and his human Mother and Father unconditionally and saves people in the film but because he isn't getting cats out of tree's and saving people during the Zod fight or smiling (that ones most stupid of all the criticisms of Zac's Superman) he isn't Superman wtf.
Batman's a mary sue. Batman isn't that. Far from it. Batman is always been the most relatable of all the Superheroes because he's human. Everyone says that regardless that he's a billionaire. You can become Batman if you train hard enough and have endless money.

Nah, he's just a white cis male in Hollywood.

You say his work is "respected" but you simply base this off his fans, and ignored people who say they don't respect it. You want to ignore any factor that goes against that, like box office or reviews, instead defaulting to whatever factor you think elevates Snyder's work.

To me these discussion are ironic, because those who support Snyder always tell others they need to listen to what Snyder said while they themselves ignore the words of the others who repeatedly explain issues they have with Snyder's work.

You bring up "isn't Superman allowed to worry about things ad be upset". Of course. Pretty much every version of Superman does that. Donner's Superman did that. The issue people have with Snyder's Superman isn't that he cares or worries. It is that his constant state seems to be bitterness at the task he chose. That isn't Kal-El the Last Son of Krypton. He doesn't feel screwed by the world.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Meaning of the term is out there. Batman doesn't fit, as far as I can see.

I love Batman. If we are going to go off the definition certain people like to randomly throw at female characters on the internet, Batman is very much a Mary Sue. Not that I care, but the most desirable genius billionaire playboy ninja detective who can somehow fight Superman without any super powers? I mean come on.

 

[Brother Jack]

The Mary Sue/Gary Stu term would only apply to characters without any faults or mistakes. And when he's written correctly, Bruce most certainly does. It's in things like the Bat-God concept where that becomes true, where he loses his essential (fallible) humanity and becomes a much less interesting character.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The Mary Sue/Gary Stu term would only apply to characters without any faults or mistakes. And when he's written correctly, Bruce most certainly does. It's in things like the Bat-God concept where that becomes true, where he loses his essential (fallible) humanity and becomes a much less interesting character.

If that is true, it applies to pretty much no one. Which I agree with. But, that isn't how a lot of people use it on the internet. Mainly when they want to cry about a female character existing or beating up a dude. The standard of no faults or not mistakes suddenly becomes not enough faults or mistakes.

 

[flickchick85]

I mean, usually everyone in the room in a JL story is essentially written to be dumber/less effective than in their own solos in order to make Batman always look like the smartest and bestest, so...I can see it. There are certainly arguments to be made for Gary Stu-ism in there. That’s actually one of the reasons I rarely enjoy group books.

I think that’s one reason I enjoyed what I’ve read of Tom King’s Batman run, while a lot of Batfans hated it. King really...embraced the flaws, lol. It just depends on the writer at the end of the day.

 

[Zarex]

I mean, usually everyone in the room in a JL story is essentially written to be dumber/less effective than in their own solos in order to make Batman always look like the smartest and bestest, so...I can see it. There are certainly arguments to be made for Gary Stu-ism in there. That’s actually one of the reasons I rarely enjoy group books.

I believe the Bat God was a post Crisis & TDKR invention. Prior to that Batman was a low powered JL member who questioned his place on the team. And his personality in the JL books was Standard Super Hero, quite different from the Darknight Detective operating in his solo books at that time.

I think that’s one reason I enjoyed what I’ve read of Tom King’s Batman run, while a lot of Batfans hated it. King really...embraced the flaws, lol. It just depends on the writer at the end of the day.

I love King's Batman. And his Vision, Sheriff of Babylon, Mister Miracle & Omega Men.

 

[flickchick85]

And his Vision, Sheriff of Babylon, Mister Miracle & Omega Men.

I loved all those too, as well as his Superman. I wouldn't be opposed to him taking on a proper Superman run, but after the response to his Batman run, I doubt DC would even consider it.

 

[batfreakforever]

Good lord you are the 2nd Zack Snyder fanatic on this forum who finds ok to put words in my mouth. Since the start of this topic I never once said he doesn't respect the characters or comics, so please, PLEASE read my post more carefully!



PLEASE read my post more carefully and please stop putting words in my mouth. PLEASE!
As for throwing box office numbers at you, well it was you who said that Zack Snyder is the right guy to make comicbook movies but the boxoffice multipliers and final numbers indicate that to the audience he is NOT the right guy to do comic books. Now if you like his work, then that's perfectly fine and boxffice numbers shouldn't matter but when a studio gives the man 100s of millions to make movies that appeal to the mass audience and they end up failing or disappointing both at the box office and critical reception then from a business point of view he is NOT the right guy for comicbook movies.




You're right and I never said it was and if you actually read my post more carefully you would realize that I never said Snyder doesn't respect comicbooks or characters, I used boxoffice numbers to dispute your claim that Zack is the right guy to make comicbook movies when financially and critically, from a studio's perspective, he isn't, but that should not affect your enjoyment of his films.



Actually Watchmen was positively reviewed (I liked the film) but a 68% critic rating isn't high respect and neither is 300's low 60s rating. Btw I liked 300 as well.
To say that MOS and BvS are highly respected is simply not true, it's one thing to be an ardent Snyder fan but it's another to ignore facts. MOS and BvS divided critics and fans right in the middle and btw BvS the TC was also Snyder's work and that got a mighty 20 something percent approval from citics and remains to this day the record holder for the worst multiplier for any film to open over a 100 million in hollywood history!
I will say it again, no one can take away your enjoyment of Zack Snyder films and I never said that he doesn't respect comicbooks but don't let your overzealous support for Snyder blind you from the simple fact that the audience and critics have rejected his superhero films.



He probably is the luckiest man in hollywood, because 5 other directors passed on MOS when approached by Chris Nolan, Zack was the only one who said yes, probably to save his failing career because when I said he had back to back to back flops, I was referencing box office numbers and numbers don't lie even if you choose to ignore them.
When it comes to superhero films, yeah, Zack tend to s**t the bed, again it's not just me saying this, it's the critics, alot of the fans and most importantly the audience.



I don't need to listen, what I did was actually watch SR and MOS and in my opinion Singer and Snyder's Superman were the same and again the whole Superman=jesus angle was started by Donner and then imitated by Singer and then imitated by Snyder, so Zack Superman isn't even remotely original.
Singer's Superman is supposed to Donner's but he ended up very different, which is why STM was a massive hit and SR was massive disappointment. You can go read the reviews for SR to realize that most critics had an issue with how different Routh's Superman was to Reeve's and how muted the former was compared to the latter.



To me and to - as you yourself said - people Snyder's superman was mopey, emo, dialogue challenged and a nihilist (in BvS) and that is the opinion of the majority and no matter how hard you try you won't change my mind or the minds of those people, so just accept that we see Snyder's Superman differently and more negatively than you do, but that shouldn't take away from you liking Snyder's Superman.



I think he is, a mary sue is a character that is so capable, it comes off as perfect and to me Batman is a genuis level billionare, who is one of the world's greatest fighters and the greatest athlete, detective and escape artist, not to mention he's been shown to know everything about science and has in the past beaten the likes of Darksied and the white martians and why Frank Miller and many batman fanboys like to argue that he can beat superman as well. All that to me makes Batman a Mary Sue and if you think that all one needs is money and hard training to become Batman in the real world then..............well honestly I don't know what to tell ya, maybe it's time to put down the comicbook and get out to the real world for alittle bit.

Righty man. Telling me to get out in the real world. No need for those comments please. We're in the same boat. Just relax. Take a breath. Its all cool.
People base box office success on their own calculations but if Snyder was failing as much as people make him out to be on a business side of things then WB wouldn't keep giving him boad loads of money to keep making films. Now after Justice League failed which was Whedons and WB fault anyway he's now been givin more money to finish his Justice League. He must be doing something right to have movie after movie after movie from the same studio. Think about it.

Batman with enough planning can destroy Superman anytime of the week but Superman would definitely destroy Batman without Batman planning or having any gadgets when just one on one with the flick of his finger.

I find that Snyder's Superman has a realistic response to the world with his emotions and actions.
I love Donner's Superman too but Donner's and Snyder's Supermans both give me Something different. I can enjoy both but in different ways.
Yes you do need to listen to Zac because only he can say if he respects Comics or not. Not anybody else based on their opinions. Just him. Not based on Box office or reviews. That's putting words in his mouth.
Also with directors passing on projects has nothing to with Snyder and the final outcome. Man Of Steel just wasnt for them. It happens all the time. You say he probably accepted the gig to save his career. Yeah thats really reaching dude.

Look we are the opposite.
I know you hate Snyder, most of his films and what he did to Superman.
Just like I like Snyder, most his films and enjoyed what he's done with Superman.
As for Batman being a mary sue is far from the truth. Batman fails all the time.
Sorry but box office and reviews are not an indicator of a great or even good film.
Not every film needs Marvel level box office either.

 

[Superchan]

Telling me to get out in the real world. No need for those comments please. We're in the same boat. Just relax. Take a breath. Its all cool.

I am relaxed, but please don't go putting words in my mouth and then start arguing about the very words that you put in my mouth, that is not cool.
As for getting out into the real world, that wasn't meant to be a condescending statement, I meant it as an advice because no amount of money and hard work could make a Batman and thinking otherwise means that there is a disconnect between you and the real world. Still that shouldn't stop you from liking Batman.

Yes you do need to listen to Zac because only he can say if he respects Comics or not. Not anybody else based on their opinions. Just him. Not based on Box office or reviews. That's putting words in his mouth.

Look batfreakforever I don't know whether you're doing this intentionally or not, or maybe I'm not making my self clear but I never said that Snyder doesn't respect comics, period! Others might though because they've read the same quotes that hellblazer103 kindly provided or went on youtube and listened to his profanity filled tirade about how superheroes are all damaged and that the fans who think otherwise need to "grow up".

You say he probably accepted the gig to save his career. Yeah thats really reaching dude.

It's my opinion and I don't think I am reaching, Snyder in 2007 after the release and success of 300 said he wouldn't be interested in superman because he's "too earnest" but then he goes and makes 3 flops in a row and by 2010 he's directing a superman movie and the character suddenly becomes his favorite. Your opinion differs to mine and that's perfectly fine, agree to disagree.

I know you hate Snyder, most of his films and what he did to Superman.

AGAIN? Seriously, you're putting words in my mouth again! Tell me something, are you here just to argue or are you genuinely interested in having a civil discussion? Because if it's the former then I want non of it, I had my fill of arguing with some Snyder fanatics and from the way you keep putting words in my mouth I get the impression that you are now simply trolling.
I don't hate Snyder and never said anything personal about the guy because I don't know the guy, I also don't hate all of his work (actually liked his first 4 movies) but I think he's rubbish when it comes to directing Superhero films.

Sorry but box office and reviews are not an indicator of a great or even good film.

????? See here is the thing you seem to be creating things out of thin air and then you start arguing about them. I said that box office and reviews are the only indicators when judging whether a director was the right man or woman for the job of making a 4 quadrant, crowd pleasing, big budget movie. Whether a movie is good or not is dependent solely on personal opinion, so if someone likes a movie, no amount of critical backlash or boxoffice failure should change that fact.


In conclusion, I never said Snyder doesn't respect comics but I did affirm that he is not the right guy to be making superhero films for the mass public because the boxoffice receipts and multipliers indicate clearly that the mass public don't like his films, however the mass opinion should not negate your liking of snyder's film.

 

[Superchan]

Dude I tried to warn you, the only place you're going to get with this guy is frustrated

LOL yeah you did mannerism but honestly I enjoy engaging in pop culture discussions, what I don't enjoy however is when people start putting words in the my mouth and that seems to be the case with alot of Zack Snyder fans, past and present, infact I am yet to meet a legit Snyder fan that I can have an honest, mature discussion with.

Btw that metaphor of the kid who answers everything wrong - really clear and succinct way to sum up Snyder's track record

Thanks for the kind words sir.

I will say that IMO Cavill Superman in Man of Steel > Routh Superman f

Fair enough, I think they're both equally bad even though Henry and Brandon are fantastic Supermen and apparently Routh got to show what he can do with Superman when given the opportunity, but I haven't watched COIE and nor do I intend to watch any superman related CW stuff.

The Mary Sue/Gary Stu term would only apply to characters without any faults or mistakes

That's not the definition that I am familiar with. The way I understood it is that a Mary Sue is some one is able to do anything and everything to the point where it comes off as boring.

I loved all those too, as well as his Superman

I liked the intention behind his Superman stuff but the execution was a little maladroit.
His Omega men 12 issue mini was superb though and the sheriff of Babylon was excellent too, even if it hit alittle close to home since I witnessed similar things when I was living in Iraq.