Ant-Man and the Wasp Spoilers Thread

[harlequinade]

With all due respect, its really silly to assume things without having seen the movie and understood the context, even if you were to assume the spoilers were true.

And I really think it is stupid to blame a studio for waiting 20 movies before having a female lead or 16 movies before having a person of a different race be the lead. How many years and movies did it take for every other studio there? I don't think it is fair to blame a studio for playing it safe when they are only 10 years old and 20 movies in. I would rather concentrate on how well the PoC and women have been represented within said movies.

I'm not seeing much respect here.


I'm not blaming, I'm stating a fact. Just because others are also doing badly is not an excuse. 'Safe'? What's the danger of having a female protagonist? Incels revolt?

 

[honestbharani]

I'm not seeing much respect here.


I'm not blaming, I'm stating a fact. Just because others are also doing badly is not an excuse. 'Safe'? What's the danger of having a female protagonist? Incels revolt?

Not seeing it is your fault, not mine.


And if you re-read the post, that is not stating a fact. That was a blame. And yeah, there is no danger with a female protagonist but if you recall again, they had the idea of using Antman (and maybe Wasp) for the first Avengers movie mimicking the comic books. It was Edgar Wright's delay with the script that pulled Antman off Phase 1. They have stayed true to going by the characters and their overarching narrative did not have space for Captain Marvel till now and the remaining female heroes are either not that popular even within the comics or stuck in rights limbo with other studios.

 

[harlequinade]

Not seeing it is your fault, not mine.


And if you re-read the post, that is not stating a fact. That was a blame. And yeah, there is no danger with a female protagonist but if you recall again, they had the idea of using Antman (and maybe Wasp) for the first Avengers movie mimicking the comic books. It was Edgar Wright's delay with the script that pulled Antman off Phase 1. They have stayed true to going by the characters and their overarching narrative did not have space for Captain Marvel till now and the remaining female heroes are either not that popular even within the comics or stuck in rights limbo with other studios.

And that's all there is to it. What they have stayed true to is not giving women their own movies and cutting LGBTQ moments from films. MCU has been doing the minimum for YEARS and it's only now they are changing it. It's not blame it's calling it what it is but call it whatever you like, it doesn't change the truth.

 

[honestbharani]

And that's all there is to it. What they have stayed true to is not giving women their own movies and cutting LGBTQ moments from films. MCU has been doing the minimum for YEARS and it's only now they are changing it. It's not blame it's calling it what it is but call it whatever you like, it doesn't change the truth.

Lol.. The only fact about that post is that you are blaming the MCU for something. Sure, they cutting the LGBTQ moment (the plural is rather suspicious as I do not think that is true) was the "safe" move but none of what they have done is the "minimum". They have stuck true to their overarching narrative and not rushed movies just to push some kind of social agenda and as a company who is into the moviemaking business, that is the right attitude. Your blame of "minimum" will have made more sense if they have not had really good characters represented on screen across their movies without resorting to racial or sexual stereotypes.

 

[harlequinade]

Spare me your "lols". There was a time when Scarlett Johansson used to be one of the most profitable actresses in the world and they STILL didn't give her BW solo years ago. That's why no women watching this movie will be surprised by that mid-credits scene. It's pretty much what to be expected.

 

[samsnee]

And these are spoilers how?

 

[harlequinade]

And these are spoilers how?

We're talking about mid-credits scene. You have a link to the whole plot summary on previous page.

 

[Abudefduf]

Eh, even as someone who dislikes Hope, I think it's lame that [BLACKOUT]they're killing her off right before the big crossover[/BLACKOUT].

And I'm sorry but it's true that Marvel has a bad track record with female characters. It took them 7 years to introduce Scarlet Witch, 9 years for Valkyrie, 10 years for Wasp and Captain Marvel... they also have (arguably) screwed up Gamora, Sif and Mantis, they've banished cool characters like Nico Minoru, Squirrel Girl and others to the Marvel Non-Cinematic Universe, and classic heroines like She-Hulk, Monica Rambeau, Tigra etc. are still nowhere to be seen...

Come on, let's not defend the indefensible. Marvel Studios are just bad at female characters.

 

[terry78]

I don't disagree but is suspect they didn't want to do any until they were ready, unlike DC with Catwoman and their Elektra fiasco. They got spooked by those two and **** like Barb Wire and Tank Girl.

 

[psylockolussus]

Hmm I'll wait and see how they will portray characters like Storm, Phoenix, Rogue, Psylocke, Shadowcat, Invisible Woman to judge whether they don't really like their female characters.

They could be saving Wasp for future Avengers movies just like the ones who were dusted off. I'm hoping the dusting off would have the same impact as A3, though obviously, its not going to be that shocking since it would just be 3 and not more than a dozen.

 

[Ultron]

Come on, let's not defend the indefensible. Marvel Studios are just bad at female characters.

This, just a sign of the times they were created in.

And you're really going to blame them for not doing a female led movie in phase 1 or early in the MCU infancy?

Black Widow - no powers, "just" an assassin/spy, she's cool, but she is what it is. So, yeah lets give her a movie over Ironman, Hulk, Thor, Captain America?

Same reason Hawkeye doesn't have a solo movie, he's lame with no real cool powers.

 

[honestbharani]

Spare me your "lols". There was a time when Scarlett Johansson used to be one of the most profitable actresses in the world and they STILL didn't give her BW solo years ago. That's why no women watching this movie will be surprised by that mid-credits scene. It's pretty much what to be expected.

Again, Lol. How the hell does it matter how famous or profitable Scar Jo was to the fact that they did not have a BW story that merited a movie on its own? They had their throughline and her part was through certain movies of it without having an entire movie focussed on her journey, just like The Hulk or Hawkeye. As I said, they are a studio first and foremost and they have to back their plans and their overarching narrative. You make it sound like the only reason this BW did not happen earlier was because it had a female lead and honestly, that is stupid.

 

[harlequinade]

Eh, even as someone who dislikes Hope, I think it's lame that [BLACKOUT]they're killing her off right before the big crossover[/BLACKOUT].

And I'm sorry but it's true that Marvel has a bad track record with female characters. It took them 7 years to introduce Scarlet Witch, 9 years for Valkyrie, 10 years for Wasp and Captain Marvel... they also have (arguably) screwed up Gamora, Sif and Mantis, they've banished cool characters like Nico Minoru, Squirrel Girl and others to the Marvel Non-Cinematic Universe, and classic heroines like She-Hulk, Monica Rambeau, Tigra etc. are still nowhere to be seen...

Come on, let's not defend the indefensible. Marvel Studios are just bad at female characters.

Thank you. Apparently some here will argue sky isn't blue.

This, just a sign of the times they were created in.

And you're really going to blame them for not doing a female led movie in phase 1 or early in the MCU infancy?

Black Widow - no powers, "just" an assassin/spy, she's cool, but she is what it is. So, yeah lets give her a movie over Ironman, Hulk, Thor, Captain America?

Same reason Hawkeye doesn't have a solo movie, he's lame with no real cool powers.

I understand phase one, but 20+ movies? They waited so long after Red Sparrow and Atomic Blonde her movie almost feel redundant. Literally other studios did her story before MCU manages to make a solo film

Again, Lol. How the hell does it matter how famous or profitable Scar Jo was to the fact that they did not have a BW story that merited a movie on its own? They had their throughline and her part was through certain movies of it without having an entire movie focussed on her journey, just like The Hulk or Hawkeye. As I said, they are a studio first and foremost and they have to back their plans and their overarching narrative. You make it sound like the only reason this BW did not happen earlier was because it had a female lead and honestly, that is stupid.

I'm done talking to you.

 

[honestbharani]

I understand phase one, but 20+ movies? They waited so long after Red Sparrow and Atomic Blonde her movie almost feel redundant. Literally other studios did her story before MCU manages to make a solo film



I'm done talking to you.

So which of the 20 movies were not important to the overarching story? And how will a BW movie have been more important? And please, take your PA elsewhere. This a forum for discussion and that is a move that people make when they don't have a point in the first place.

 

[Abudefduf]

I don't disagree but is suspect they didn't want to do any until they were ready, unlike DC with Catwoman and their Elektra fiasco. They got spooked by those two and **** like Barb Wire and Tank Girl.

So many words just to say that Perlmutter sucks.

This, just a sign of the times they were created in.

And you're really going to blame them for not doing a female led movie in phase 1 or early in the MCU infancy?

I didn't say anything about female-led solo movies (though I do think they could've made one in Phase 2), I'm talking about how they treat their female heroes in general.

 

[terry78]

Maybe that all female team up flick isn't so far off now.

 

[harlequinade]

I'm just glad from the looks of things Hope, Janet and Ghost are all really awesome here. Things are finally turning with Hope getting such a huge role here and Carol on the horizon

 

[Thanoss]

Which is why her getting dusted would be so lame. Peyton Reed spends an entire movie setting her up to be awesome, and yet she STILL doesn't get to take part in the big team-up/final battle with Thanos (and yet Scott does)?

I'm getting tired of these movies seemingly going out of their way to sideline Wasp in favor of Ant Man. She's an important Avenger in the comics as well. Why can't she AND Scott be involved in Avengers 4 or at least have BOTH of them get dusted?

The snap turn to dust random living beings so it doesn’t care about who’s important and who is not,who is poor who is rich etc
I love it

 

[harlequinade]

The snap is a fictional thing written by actual writers though I doubt they rolled the dice deciding who lives or dies

 

[Aximili86]

Spare me your "lols". There was a time when Scarlett Johansson used to be one of the most profitable actresses in the world and they STILL didn't give her BW solo years ago.

While this is true, you've gotta take into consideration the character status with the general audiences too. Whereas Iron Man & Thor & Cap were hardly the Marvel brand's Spider-Man/Hulk/X-Men huge known properties before the MCU, they were hands down the biggest characters/properties the company owned at the time.

Joe & Jane average had no friggin' clue who Black Widow was pre-2010, and honestly even then didn't pay much attention to her until Avengers. No different to Hawkeye really, if either of those characters got a solo it was always going to happen further down the line once the Big Four were all covered.

Agreed on Scarlett being a bigger name than the Evans or Hemsworths of the world, but she's...playing Black Widow. That's not a 1-to-1 equivalent with Wonder Woman who's in the public consciousness and the character itself is a bigger deal.

Also, it'd be pretty difficult to criticize Marvel now for being light on the female stuff. Strong female characters were all over the first Ant-Man, Black Panther, along with Ragnarok & Infinity War. Hope's front-and-center in this movie, and we've got a big Carol film coming.

I want a Widow movie too, and preferably I'd have wanted it before all the space-stuff escalation, it'd fit better. But there's definite logic behind leaving her until later, you can bet your ass if she had Thor or Hulk's position among the "big main Avengers" pre-movies she'd have had a Phase 1 flick.

 

[MaceB]

What's the danger of having a female protagonist? Incels revolt?

I'm not disagreeing with you. We need strong female protagonists in this genre. Little girls look up to female leads just as much as little boys look up to Captain America, Spiderman, etc. And female superheroes can be just as compelling and exciting to watch as as male superheroes - no doubt.

But if you are honestly asking what the danger is, well that's pretty clear. The lead demographic for the MCU is young to middle aged men. And like everyone else, men like to watch characters that look, sound, and feel like them. From a box office perspective, I don't think the female superhero model has necessarily proven itself out. Yes - Wonder Woman was a big success. But studio execs are worried about going full ham with female superheroes, because - to them - it's an unproven model with more risks to success. That's the reason. You can agree with it or not, but that's the why of it.

 

[samsnee]

Good to see this thread has been hijacked by people who don't actually want to talk about the movie.

 

[Thanoss]

The snap is a fictional thing written by actual writers though I doubt they rolled the dice deciding who lives or dies

So its 50-50 that they did roll the dice, see how its the first big moment thought. The writer is/was a genius

 

[Mike_D202]

Eh, even as someone who dislikes Hope, I think it's lame that [BLACKOUT]they're killing her off right before the big crossover[/BLACKOUT].

And I'm sorry but it's true that Marvel has a bad track record with female characters. It took them 7 years to introduce Scarlet Witch, 9 years for Valkyrie, 10 years for Wasp and Captain Marvel... they also have (arguably) screwed up Gamora, Sif and Mantis, they've banished cool characters like Nico Minoru, Squirrel Girl and others to the Marvel Non-Cinematic Universe, and classic heroines like She-Hulk, Monica Rambeau, Tigra etc. are still nowhere to be seen...

Come on, let's not defend the indefensible. Marvel Studios are just bad at female characters.

You must have missed the memo:

Spoiler

Captain Marvel shows up in Infinity War part 2 and saves everyone. Black Widow is still kickin'. So is Black Panther's female friends and family.

 

[Aximili86]

Bingo. ^

But "Kevin don like wimminz" all the same, I guess.