The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Better 3 Villains: TASM2 Or SM3?

I agree. I think Spider-Man 4 would have outgrossed TASM significantly. Since TASM ended up costing 250mil, I don't think SM4 would have been much more expensive, either. No way to know that for sure, of course, but I do think the reboot lost people, which we can see since that audience didn't come back. No guarantee the movie would have been better than TASM was, but I do think it would have had more buzz.
 
I agree. I think Spider-Man 4 would have outgrossed TASM significantly. Since TASM ended up costing 250mil, I don't think SM4 would have been much more expensive, either. No way to know that for sure, of course, but I do think the reboot lost people, which we can see since that audience didn't come back. No guarantee the movie would have been better than TASM was, but I do think it would have had more buzz.

The major problem with SM4 is that so many of Spidey's A-list villains were finished at the end of SM3. Norman, Harry, Ock, Venom were all dead, and Sandman had seemingly left villainy behind. The next obvious choices would have been Lizard, Vulture, Rhino, and Electro. Kingpin wasn't an option and Carnage would have been very tricky. Introducing an entirely-new Sinister Six would have been difficult as well.

The main draw of SM4 would have been the marriage. That certainly would have appealed to Spidey readers, but would it have drawn casual moviegoers and kids? That's tough to answer.
 
I agree. I think Spider-Man 4 would have outgrossed TASM significantly. Since TASM ended up costing 250mil, I don't think SM4 would have been much more expensive, either. No way to know that for sure, of course, but I do think the reboot lost people, which we can see since that audience didn't come back. No guarantee the movie would have been better than TASM was, but I do think it would have had more buzz.

Know what's such a kick in the nuts about TASM? Raimi supposedly wanted to use Lizard...and Sony said no. Raimi wanted to release the movie in 2012, to make sure he had a great film...and Sony said no. So....we got a Spider-Man movie with the Lizard in 2012 because logic. :huh:
 
Yeah, hence why I have not one drop of sympathy towards SONY and their financial situations. That Ghostbusters BS isn't helping either.
 
I agree. I think Spider-Man 4 would have outgrossed TASM significantly. Since TASM ended up costing 250mil, I don't think SM4 would have been much more expensive, either. No way to know that for sure, of course, but I do think the reboot lost people, which we can see since that audience didn't come back. No guarantee the movie would have been better than TASM was, but I do think it would have had more buzz.

Agreed.

I would love to have seen Raimi work his magic a fourth time on a Spider-Man movie. Even under studio control the third time he still did a good job.
 
The major problem with SM4 is that so many of Spidey's A-list villains were finished at the end of SM3. Norman, Harry, Ock, Venom were all dead, and Sandman had seemingly left villainy behind. The next obvious choices would have been Lizard, Vulture, Rhino, and Electro. Kingpin wasn't an option and Carnage would have been very tricky. Introducing an entirely-new Sinister Six would have been difficult as well.

The main draw of SM4 would have been the marriage. That certainly would have appealed to Spidey readers, but would it have drawn casual moviegoers and kids? That's tough to answer.

You don't need an iconic villain to make the movie bankable. Sure, having one doesn't hurt, but Spider-Man's strength is that even though guys like Electro are less iconic, he still has so many strong villains outside his main A-list ones. For example, The Lizard, who Raimi wanted to use in SM2. If SM4 had gotten the acclaim that SM1 and SM2 got, it would have done likely as well as SM2 at least. Iconic villains or not. Plus, they still had Black Cat (who was going to be in the movie) and while not a favorite of mine, she is popular.

Know what's such a kick in the nuts about TASM? Raimi supposedly wanted to use Lizard...and Sony said no. Raimi wanted to release the movie in 2012, to make sure he had a great film...and Sony said no. So....we got a Spider-Man movie with the Lizard in 2012 because logic. :huh:

That boils my blood, also. Really no reason for this.

Agreed.

I would love to have seen Raimi work his magic a fourth time on a Spider-Man movie. Even under studio control the third time he still did a good job.

100% agreed. TASM films clearly had studio interference, but SM3 was a much more focused film than TASM2 was under similar circumstances. It's a shame we didn't get a 4th, especially now that we have seen what this reboot series looks like. All these films continue to do is make me long for the better series.
 
Yeah, hence why I have not one drop of sympathy towards SONY and their financial situations. That Ghostbusters BS isn't helping either.

How do you know this? I want to read up more on this.

I knew there was plenty of dirt between Raimi and Sony, but I had no idea they did that with Lizard.
 
Know what's such a kick in the nuts about TASM? Raimi supposedly wanted to use Lizard...and Sony said no. Raimi wanted to release the movie in 2012, to make sure he had a great film...and Sony said no. So....we got a Spider-Man movie with the Lizard in 2012 because logic. :huh:

Jesus ****ing Christ Sony.
 
The major problem with SM4 is that so many of Spidey's A-list villains were finished at the end of SM3. Norman, Harry, Ock, Venom were all dead, and Sandman had seemingly left villainy behind. The next obvious choices would have been Lizard, Vulture, Rhino, and Electro. Kingpin wasn't an option and Carnage would have been very tricky. Introducing an entirely-new Sinister Six would have been difficult as well.

The main draw of SM4 would have been the marriage. That certainly would have appealed to Spidey readers, but would it have drawn casual moviegoers and kids? That's tough to answer.

They would probably have had to reboot eventually, but they were a long ways off.

And after rebooting what did TASM do? Use Lizard and Electro, two villains that weren't used by Raimi anyways.
 
You don't need an iconic villain to make the movie bankable. Sure, having one doesn't hurt, but Spider-Man's strength is that even though guys like Electro are less iconic, he still has so many strong villains outside his main A-list ones. For example, The Lizard, who Raimi wanted to use in SM2. If SM4 had gotten the acclaim that SM1 and SM2 got, it would have done likely as well as SM2 at least. Iconic villains or not. Plus, they still had Black Cat (who was going to be in the movie) and while not a favorite of mine, she is popular.

I still think SM4 would have been the organic end of the series. With so many dead villains, branching out beyond the origin formula would have been difficult without more retconning, which didn't seem particularly popular in SM3.
 
Jesus ****ing Christ Sony.

Yeaaaap.


How do you know this? I want to read up more on this.

I knew there was plenty of dirt between Raimi and Sony, but I had no idea they did that with Lizard.

While it was nothing but Rumor, as the only villain we know for sure would've been Vulture, Raimi had gone out on record during the production schedule that he wanted to use Lizard, someone he planned on using in SM2.

I love the Lizard. There's a great story there in the Marvel comic books about Dr. Connors. I'm less familiar with Carnage...What we’re trying to do right now is really understand the journey Peter is going to go on this time and have the villain maybe be a counter to that growth, something that he has to overcome… Or maybe he has to grow in a way to overcome the villain, because there always seem to be stories of coming of age, of a young man growing up and learning things about life, so once we are identifying the exact movement that Peter has to grow to, I think the villain—and we’re trying this right now; we’re trying to choose a villain based on who would be the proper counter to that growth, so we really have dramatic conflict.

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/news/view/00027933.html

That being said, nothing was concrete. We didn't get official note of who was going to be what, but the flip side of that coin was that Sony refused to market a villain who's facial features you couldn't see, so they wanted to veto Lizard's involvement.
 
Raimi had art work for Lizard for Spidey 2

lizard+rough01acopy.jpg


And Black Cat.

yt9snrD.jpg
 
Last edited:
While it was nothing but Rumor, as the only villain we know for sure would've been Vulture, Raimi had gone out on record during the production schedule that he wanted to use Lizard, someone he planned on using in SM2.

Well, interestingly enough, I guess I'm glad then that Raimi still stands as being responsible for one of the best villains in CBM history. Joker is the only villain I would have ahead of Doc Ock, so he's set a pretty high standard for Goddard to top.

It sucks to know the cards were dealt for him that way, though, especially after all he did for the original trilogy.
 
Well, interestingly enough, I guess I'm glad then that Raimi still stands as being responsible for one of the best villains in CBM history. Joker is the only villain I would have ahead of Doc Ock, so he's set a pretty high standard for Goddard to top.

It sucks to know the cards were dealt for him that way, though, especially after all he did for the original trilogy.

That's a pretty big accomplishment, too. With all due respect to Nolan and Ledger, Joker is much easier to translate to live-action than Ock. For most of his history, Ock has had terrible aesthetics and a bland personality, but I was completely blown away by Molina's Ock.
 
That's a pretty big accomplishment, too. With all due respect to Nolan and Ledger, Joker is much easier to translate to live-action than Ock. For most of his history, Ock has had terrible aesthetics and a bland personality, but I was completely blown away by Molina's Ock.

Agreed.

I don't think I've "YouTube'd" anything as much as I have scenes of Heath Ledger as Joker. I consider myself lucky to have seen a performance like that, and I was devastated at the news of Ledger's passing.

In regards to Doc Ock, though, he was just so brilliantly done. The backstory, the tragedy he dealt with his wife's passing, threatening May and MJ, the train fight, and his eventual demise at the end of SM2 set the golden standard for CBMs ahead.

Quite frankly, I just can't see a better Doc Ock being done in a movie that will also dedicate time to five other villains. I'm not saying Doc Ock can't be good again, but I don't think he'll be anywhere near Molina's version.
 
Know what's such a kick in the nuts about TASM? Raimi supposedly wanted to use Lizard...and Sony said no. Raimi wanted to release the movie in 2012, to make sure he had a great film...and Sony said no. So....we got a Spider-Man movie with the Lizard in 2012 because logic. :huh:

And this is a big reason as to why I am rooting against these new movies now, especially considering how much I hate both TASM movies.

Sony is stupid. So, so stupid.
 
That's a pretty big accomplishment, too. With all due respect to Nolan and Ledger, Joker is much easier to translate to live-action than Ock. For most of his history, Ock has had terrible aesthetics and a bland personality, but I was completely blown away by Molina's Ock.

I agree with this. Doc Ock has always been my favorite Spider-Man villain, but the way he was adapted in Spider-Man 2 was beyond impressive. They changed a bit of his character, yes, but they left the hubris aspect in, and displayed the devastating consequences that came with it.

Between Doc Ock's tragedy and motives, and the running theme of responsibility and sacrifice ... Spider-Man 2's story is so neatly constructed. It's a big reason as to why it's still my favorite comic book film of all time.

Doc Ock altogether played a huge part of the reason as to why I knew Spider-Man 3 would never live up to Spider-Man 2 prior to seeing it. Spider-Man 3 had three villains, and none of them could live up to Doc Ock.

That said, Spider-Man 3's villains suffered mainly because of a severely condensed and compacted story. The bits I saw I liked; I just wish there had been more. In TASM 2, I can't even tell you if there actually is a story. It's all over the place. And lord knows I didn't want ANY more of Electro, Goblin, or Rhino ... Especially Rhino.
 
Doc Ock has always been the gold standard of Spider-Man villains for me in the comics. Great back story, great personality, awesome powers, and plenty of depth. Yes even more so than Norman. I love the Goblin story, but Ock to me had the edge because it was just him doing his thing and doing it so effectively without the need of a legacy like the Goblin legacy (Harry, Hobgoblin). He's the anti-Peter Parker.

I think Raimi nailed that aspect. No to mention many other Ock aspects, too; http://molinaock.blogspot.ie/

Alfred Molina's casting was so perfect. His performance was so good. He got to play all aspects of the character, from warm, to sympathetic, to villainous, to even humorous (like when he swatted those train passengers out of the way with a big grin on his face lol). Like the comics Ock is the gold standard for the Spidey movie villains to be measured to.
 
Molina was good as Ock but I don't think he was anything special or memorable, not compared to Willem Dafoe as Norman Osborn anyway.
 
Molina was good as Ock but I don't think he was anything special or memorable, not compared to Willem Dafoe as Norman Osborn anyway.

He was more than passable; he took that character to a whole new level. I could never really take Ock seriously in the comics. The Spidey mythos has the Green Goblin, a mad scientist type who can oppose Spidey with a plethora of stylized tech and the Lizard, the mad scientist type who can oppose Spidey with brute force and regenerative factor. Ock was a frumpy, poorly-sighted, brain-damaged egotist with tentacles that hardly looked imposing. The modern "hanging sack of meat" Ock has actually made some of those problematic areas worse.

Molina's Ock didn't have any of those shortcomings. Molina delivered his lines with threatening, myopic confidence. He also got into a physical state that we've rarely seen him, and actually looked tough (they're called "weights" Topher, look into them) and not a hindrance to his mechanical arms.

Moreover, the design of the arms made them look formidable. Raimi's direction brought all of this together with the hospital scene that was brutal and echoed a horror movie. All of that made a villain who was sublime.
 
Lantern Venom, no offense but I don't think I've met anyone who over appreciates such rubbish comic book characters like Venom, and under appreciates the brilliant ones like Ock. It's like you're a template guide as to how not view the Spidey villains.

Everything you said Lizard and Goblin could oppose Spidey with Ock could and did too, and many times even more impressively. He was not fighting Spider-Man with his flesh and blood body so I don't know why him being chubby or needing glasses makes any difference (Just like Molina's Doc Ock with his belly and man boobs sticking out were not used to pummel Spidey, rip off vault doors, flip over cars etc). Ock fought with his tentacles which were plenty formidable. Apart from being easily capable of whupping Spidey with his tentacles, he could perform amazing feats like total on coming trains with them, topples buildings, or casually fend off the Sinister Six attacking him while smoking a cigarette;

Knockdown2.jpg


0000-1.jpg


ockattack3.jpg


I'd love to see Goblin and Lizard perform feats like that so effortlessly (one of the many advantages of mentally controlling mechanical appendages. They will never get tired like flesh and bone arms or appendages would). You'd be more valid to this ridiculous line of criticism on someone like the Vulture. A bald 80 year old man who did actually combat Spider-Man with his frail body.

Again no offense but it is hardly surprising that a die hard Venom fan, a character who rose to popularity because of shallow reasons like his look and powers, would have such weak invalid criticisms like this against Ock. I can only credit your post for at least recognizing the brilliance of Molina's Ock, and concurring that the tentacle design in Spider-Man 2 is the best one he's ever had.

Ock's unimpressive physical appearance was to show he was still the nerdy looking, chubby, bullied, repressed bitter person which shaped him into becoming the super villain he was. He faced all the same slights Peter Parker did before he got his powers; bullied in school, unpopular with girls, no friends, ostracized for being a specky four eyes science nerd, lost a parent, grew up in middle class New York etc. But unlike Peter when he got his powers he didn't lose the specs, or get in good physical shape, and become a force of good. Ock took the new found power he got and used it to lash out at the world. He didn't use his great power with great responsibility. Again that can also be traced back to his upbringing. Where Peter had loving parents like Uncle Ben and Aunt May who supported and encouraged him and instilled good moral values like with great power comes great responsibility into him, Ock had a horrible verbally abusive father and a clinging, emotionally blackmailing over bearing mother. His father used to verbally shout at him that he was a wimp and that a man his measured by is strength and power when Otto would come home beaten up by the school bullies. His mother would always tell him he's a genius who was better than the others. The type of ego centric traits we all know and love Ock for. So Ock never had the love and good upbringing Peter had with Ben and May. All these reasons are why they call Doc Ock the Peter Parker gone bad. He's the mirror image of Peter had he turned villain. That's a what you call a villain with layers, and having the brains and power to compliment it. That's why he's endured as one of the A-list in the Spidey universe for over 50 years.

An idea that Raimi so brilliantly incorporated thematically into Spider-Man 2 by having Ock and Peter's arcs reflect each other. Peter was being irresponsible by giving up being Spider-Man so he could live his dream of a normal happy life. Ock was being irresponsible by doing evil things to make his dream of building his life's work succeed. That's why Peter was able to relay the same words of wisdom to Ock about your dreams that Aunt May had to Peter earlier in the movie. It applied to both of them.
 
Last edited:
Lantern Venom, I don't think I've met anyone who over appreciates such rubbish comic book characters like Venom, and under appreciates the brilliant ones like Ock. It's like you're a template guide as to how not view the Spidey villains.

Everything you said Lizard and Goblin could oppose Spidey with Ock could and did too, and many times even more impressively. He was not fighting Spider-Man with his flesh and blood body so I don't know why him being chubby or needing glasses makes any difference (Just like Molina's Doc Ock with his belly and man boobs sticking out were not used to pummel Spidey, rip off vault doors, flip over cars etc). Ock fought with his tentacles which were plenty formidable. Apart from being easily capable of whupping Spidey with his tentacles, he could total trains with them, topples buildings, or casually fend off the Sinister Six attacking while smoking a cigarette;

Knockdown2.jpg


0000-1.jpg


ockattack3.jpg


I'd love to see Goblin and Lizard perform feats like that so effortlessly (one of the many advantages of mentally controlling mechanical appendages. They will never get tired like flesh and bone do). You'd be more valid to this ridiculous line of criticism on someone like the Vulture. A bald 80 year old man who did actually combat Spider-Man with his frail body.

No offense though it is hardly surprising that a Venom fan, a character who rose to popularity because of shallow reasons like his look and powers, would have such weak invalid criticisms like this against Ock. I can only credit your post for at least recognizing the brilliance of Molina's Ock, and concurring that the tentacle design in Spider-Man 2 is the best one he's ever had.

Ock's unimpressive physical appearance was to show he was still the nerdy looking, chubby, bullied, repressed bitter person which shaped him into becoming the super villain he was. He faced all the same slights Peter Parker did before he got his powers; bullied in school, unpopular with girls, no friends, ostracized for being a specky four eyes science nerd, lost a parent, grew up in middle class New York etc. But unlike Peter when he got his powers he didn't lose the specs, or get in good physical shape, and become a force of good. Ock took the new found power he got and used it to lash out at the world. He didn't use his great power with great responsibility. Again that can also be traced back to his upbringing. Where Peter had loving parents like Uncle Ben and Aunt May who supported and encouraged him and instilled good moral values like with great power comes great responsibility into him, Ock had a horrible verbally abusive father and a clinging, emotionally blackmailing over bearing mother. His father used to verbally shout at him that he was a wimp and that a man his measured by is strength and power when Otto would come home beaten up by the school bullies. His mother would always tell him he's a genius who was better than the others. The type of ego centric traits we all know and love Ock for. So Ock never had the love and good upbringing Peter had with Ben and May. All these reasons are why they call Doc Ock the Peter Parker gone bad. He's the mirror image of Peter had he turned villain.

An idea that Raimi so brilliantly incorporated thematically into Spider-Man 2 by having Ock and Peter's arcs reflect each other. Peter was being irresponsible by giving up being Spider-Man so he could live his dream of a normal happy life. Ock was being irresponsible by doing evil things to make his dream of building his life's work succeed. That's why Peter was able to relay the same words of wisdom to Ock about your dreams that Aunt May had to Peter earlier in the movie. It applied to both of them.

It's shouldn't surprise you that in a visual form of storytelling, visuals are extremely important, even the smallest ones. You posted a perfect picture to illustrate my ambivalence to Ock's early design. It's an ambitious concept, but a poor execution. Not only to Ock's arms appear thin and frail, he's often balanced on them while fighting. They aren't drawn to have a particularly steady base, which leads the reader to assume that he would be easy to knock off balance and prone to slipping. Moreover, for a villain who engages his foe at a distance, having compromised eyesight is a further hindrance.

Moreover, you're missing the point of Molina's physique and the brilliance of Raimi's Ock design. Molina didn't look like a bodybuilder, but he did look sturdy and powerful. Some of the questions that are instantly raised about comic Ock are: If he's in such bad shape, how does he have the hip and leg strength to move his arms when he's using them all simultaneously? How does his human body endure the impact of a fight? How does the soft tissue and bone around his mechanical arms keep from tearing when he's moving them around quickly and violently during a fight?

I think Raimi understood that no matter popular a character is, he or she sometimes has logic problems (silver and golden age characters are more prone to this) that need to be addressed. His father was overly critical and abusive, so why would young Octavious feel so upset about his death? Moreover, he was already a successful adult when his mother died, so wouldn't logic dictate that he have some better coping skills? If you peel the layers of comic Ock there is A LOT wrong with him.

Don't get me wrong. I realize that every comic character has some areas that just need to be accepted with a grain of salt, and I don't mind Ock as part of the S6 or in a panoramic story. He's a decent character, but that's about as far as I'll go.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
200,591
Messages
21,768,739
Members
45,606
Latest member
ohkeelay
Back
Top
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"