No Way Home "Down Came The Goblin, and Took The Spider Out" - Willem Dafoe Needs His Thread Too

[Spidey_62]

It still hasn't happened. Setting aside the fact that he doesn't even look like a Goblin for most of the movie, Dafoe's Goblin in NWH was a wafer thin villain who's motive in this was simply that he likes being powerful. It was a very one dimensional take on the character.

Goblin in Raimi's movie has way more complexity and nuance to him. As Norman he was trying to save himself from losing Oscorp, the company he built. He had developed a fixation on Peter/Spider-Man and recognized a potential for greatness in both of them. Peter was the son he wished Harry was, and Spider-Man was the one equal to his Goblin. He felt like he had real goals and purpose.

Even in the final showdowns, the one in Raimi's movie felt far more brutal and personal. Plus Goblin's final moments had some depth to them with the father side of him emerging asking Peter not to tell Harry as he didn't want his son to live with the shame of what his father had done. That was a villain with some dimension to him. In NWH he gets injected with miracle cure and is just like ooops what I have done? You could sum up NWH as him just wanting to keep his power. The mustache was on over time twirling here.

He most certainly has not topped Doc Ock in SM-2, IMO. Ock was a well rounded villain, visually awesome, and absolutely slayed it on the action scenes compared to Goblin. A villain who didn't need to be the dad of his best friend, or kill his Uncle, or be the dad of his girlfriend etc to have a personal link. A villain who was able to connect with Peter on a conceptual level and be a mirror image of him in his character arc. Peter was being irresponsible by giving up being Spider-Man so he could live his dream of a normal life. Ock was being irresponsible by doing evil things to make his dream of making his fusion reactor happen.

Unlike in NWH there was no quick miracle cure. Peter had to get through to Ock as a person. Speak to Otto Octavius the scientist, the man behind the tentacles to get him to see the error of his ways. There was depth and nuance in Ock's redemption. He wasn't stuck with a needle and that was that.

I can't fathom how anyone could see the Goblin out ranking Ock. NWH did not enhance Gobby's character. It didn't enhance any of the villains. The scene of Tobey's Peter having a reunion with Ock had more resonance and emotion to it than the entirety of Osborn's screen time, IMO.

Honestly I've taken baths that were deeper than NWH Goblin.

I think people are just basking in the fun that was his performance here, he brought the menace and that was what he was there for. I agree with you, Ock's the best villain this franchise has had but Dafoe was a close second. Getting to the nitty gritty it probably comes down to preference for some because they're both just so enjoyable to watch in the roles. It does bring up an interesting point though because Goblin's motivation here is pretty light and a lot of what makes him work is the fact that it relies on it being the Raimi character/Dafoe bringing it.

This movie works best if you're just an all around Spider-Man fan and have seen all the movies, I can't imagine how some are out there going into this without having seen the previous movies because a lot of the real weight of all the legacy characters comes from the prior context. I mean it all works as it is which is a miracle, but it's really enriched with the larger meanings.

 

[Toomes' Phone]

It still hasn't happened. Setting aside the fact that he doesn't even look like a Goblin for most of the movie, Dafoe's Goblin in NWH was a wafer thin villain who's motive in this was simply that he likes being powerful. It was a very one dimensional take on the character.

Goblin in Raimi's movie has way more complexity and nuance to him. As Norman he was trying to save himself from losing Oscorp, the company he built. He had developed a fixation on Peter/Spider-Man and recognized a potential for greatness in both of them. Peter was the son he wished Harry was, and Spider-Man was the one equal to his Goblin. He felt like he had real goals and purpose.

Even in the final showdowns, the one in Raimi's movie felt far more brutal and personal. Plus Goblin's final moments had some depth to them with the father side of him emerging asking Peter not to tell Harry as he didn't want his son to live with the shame of what his father had done. That was a villain with some dimension to him. In NWH he gets injected with miracle cure and is just like ooops what I have done? You could sum up NWH as him just wanting to keep his power. The mustache was on over time twirling here.

He most certainly has not topped Doc Ock in SM-2, IMO. Ock was a well rounded villain, visually awesome, and absolutely slayed it on the action scenes compared to Goblin. A villain who didn't need to be the dad of his best friend, or kill his Uncle, or be the dad of his girlfriend etc to have a personal link. A villain who was able to connect with Peter on a conceptual level and be a mirror image of him in his character arc. Peter was being irresponsible by giving up being Spider-Man so he could live his dream of a normal life. Ock was being irresponsible by doing evil things to make his dream of making his fusion reactor happen.

Unlike in NWH there was no quick miracle cure. Peter had to get through to Ock as a person. Speak to Otto Octavius the scientist, the man behind the tentacles to get him to see the error of his ways. There was depth and nuance in Ock's redemption. He wasn't stuck with a needle and that was that.

I can't fathom how anyone could see the Goblin out ranking Ock. NWH did not enhance Gobby's character. It didn't enhance any of the villains. The scene of Tobey's Peter having a reunion with Ock had more resonance and emotion to it than the entirety of Osborn's screen time, IMO.

Honestly I've taken baths that were deeper than NWH Goblin.

I read this in Alfred Molina's voice.

 

[The Joker]

I read this in Alfred Molina's voice.

That might be the biggest compliment I've ever gotten here. Thank you

 

[Toomes' Phone]

That might be the biggest compliment I've ever gotten here. Thank you

And tbh since I saw NWH I've been waffling on which one of them actually has the top spot. That's what happens when you have two fantastic actors playing two fantastic villains. But having a favorite is understandable.

 

[Iceman]

They are easily the best 2 in Spidey cinematic history. I will never say never when it comes to at least the possibility that they could be topped one day though.

 

[Toomes' Phone]

They are easily the best 2 in Spidey cinematic history. I will never say never when it comes to at least the possibility that they could be topped one day though.

Yeah tbh they're tied for #1 for me. Vulture's at #2. The rest flip flop.

 

[TheWallCrawler]

One thing I wasn't too keen on was the costume design for Norman/Goblin. The purple hoodie element looked particularly lame. It's a testament on Dafoe's acting ability that he was still able to make it work.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Dafoe was fantastic in this, but yes, I don't see how he has more depth here than he did in S-M1. He carried over the greatness he deliver in S-M1. He was great in both movies, and prove swhy he is such an amazing actor to begin with. He wooped Hollands butt! The beating he gave Tobey was much worse though.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I think people are just basking in the fun that was his performance here, he brought the menace and that was what he was there for. I agree with you, Ock's the best villain this franchise has had but Dafoe was a close second. Getting to the nitty gritty it probably comes down to preference for some because they're both just so enjoyable to watch in the roles. It does bring up an interesting point though because Goblin's motivation here is pretty light and a lot of what makes him work is the fact that it relies on it being the Raimi character/Dafoe bringing it.

This movie works best if you're just an all around Spider-Man fan and have seen all the movies, I can't imagine how some are out there going into this without having seen the previous movies because a lot of the real weight of all the legacy characters comes from the prior context. I mean it all works as it is which is a miracle, but it's really enriched with the larger meanings.

Agreed. Trying ot convince my brother to see No Way Home and he wants to, but he's only seen the Raimi movies and none of the others. I'm not really sure what to do at this point.

 

[Green Goblin]

I don't really know what people were expecting. His Goblin persona was basically fighting for survival in this and that seems like a fine motivation to me. Maybe it's because at the villains panel they over-hyped is motivations.

 

[The Infernal]

Dafoe was awesome in this and it was great to see him and Molina interact. I wish they could of had more time together. The fight in Happy's home was great. You got a real sense of just how strong Goblin was.

 

[Another_Fool]

Wait, was it common knowledge that Norman and the Green Goblin were one and the same? Ock knew who it was right away. And then Flint said it was all over the news that Norman was impaled on his own glider. How did Harry not know?

I think it's a continuity error. However a buddy of mine has a head canon that it was one of those things that those who shared the same scientific circles essentially knew it was him but it just wasn't public knowledge. I think though Flint contradicts my pal's theory since he says it was all over the news.

 

[The Infernal]

Yeah, it's a plothole. Had they just left it to Ock being surprised at seeing Osborn in the dungeon and he and Flint mentioning that he died rather than publicly being known as the Green Goblin then it would have worked fine with nothing else changed.

 

[Toomes' Phone]

Yeah, it's a plothole. Had they just left it to Ock being surprised at seeing Osborn in the dungeon and he and Flint mentioning that he died rather than publicly being known as the Green Goblin then it would have worked fine with nothing else changed.

And that's fine! Plot holes are fine as long as they don't actively hamper the story or the quality of the film, and this one didn't. Again, this ain't Cinemasins.

 

[godisawesome]

I don't really know what people were expecting. His Goblin persona was basically fighting for survival in this and that seems like a fine motivation to me. Maybe it's because at the villains panel they over-hyped is motivations.

Eh, I think of all the villains, Goblin always had the most directly malicious and philosophically immoral one that’s in direct opposition to the “power/responsibility” ethos of the Parker. Even back in Spider-Man 1, he pretty quickly establishes that even once he’s accomplished all of Norman’s strategic business goals, he just wants to lord over and abuse his power on the city’s populace because that’s what he believes power - his, Spidey’s, Electro’s, anyone’s - is for.

In contrast, every other villains has some other more modest and personal motivation - even Electro, who has the closest motivation to lining ups it’s Goblin’s, really just wants to not be ignored and instead respected/cared about.

Goblin’s the only one who would, even in defeat, revel in someone forsaking responsibility just to feed their whims - which became the main emotional push of the climax.

 

[The Caped Knight]

 

[CadeSkywalker28]

Goblin's goggles indeed have yellow/orange tint, but we can only see it for split of a second when Tom uses his bomb to destroy the glider. I don't get why they didn't gave us even one clear shot of his new look.

 

[TheWallCrawler]

And that's fine! Plot holes are fine as long as they don't actively hamper the story or the quality of the film, and this one didn't. Again, this ain't Cinemasins.

It didn't really bother me, but it's a pretty sloppy mistake and I can see how it could bother some people. Norman's fate being a secret was a big driving force of the Harry-story throughout the original trilogy. When Sandman stated that it was all over the news, for a moment I was taken out of the movie as I tried to connect the dots in my head.

Just saying plotholes are subjective. Logical cohesion is a significant factor for many people's enjoyment of a film. In this case I'd say it's a very small splinter on the integrity of the story. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Wait, was it common knowledge that Norman and the Green Goblin were one and the same? Ock knew who it was right away. And then Flint said it was all over the news that Norman was impaled on his own glider. How did Harry not know?

Was it ever outright stated that Harry and everyone else didn't know Osborn was the Green Goblin? Or was that just something people inferred from the fact that Harry thought Spider-man killed his dad and later acted weirded out when he discovered a huge hidden lab full of Goblin stuff?

 

[darthcoolness3]

Was it ever outright stated that Harry and everyone else didn't know Osborn was the Green Goblin? Or was that just something people inferred from the fact that Harry thought Spider-man killed his dad and later acted weirded out when he discovered a huge hidden lab full of Goblin stuff?

Raimi only showcased that Harry and his butler knew of Norman being the Green Goblin in 2 and 3

 

[Gothamsknight]

Dafoe was awesome in this and it was great to see him and Molina interact. I wish they could of had more time together. The fight in Happy's home was great. You got a real sense of just how strong Goblin was.

What we got of them together was so damn good. You can tell Otto genuinely cared for him too.

 

[Mr. Peanut]

Raimi only showcased that Harry and his butler knew of Norman being the Green Goblin in 2 and 3

But was it explicitly stated that only they knew?

I'm gonna need to rewatch the Raimi trilogy again to confirm exactly how much wiggle room was in there.

 

[JannTosh]

It didn't really bother me, but it's a pretty sloppy mistake and I can see how it could bother some people. Norman's fate being a secret was a big driving force of the Harry-story throughout the original trilogy. When Sandman stated that it was all over the news, for a moment I was taken out of the movie as I tried to connect the dots in my head.

Just saying plotholes are subjective. Logical cohesion is a significant factor for many people's enjoyment of a film. In this case I'd say it's a very small splinter on the integrity of the story. Nothing more, nothing less.

Guess maybe Sandman’s knowledge can be justified in that after Harry’s death, the Goblin lair was discovered in Norman’s house and the identity of both Goblin’s were revealed to the public

Ock’s knowledge, eh, guess he immediately recognized the Goblin’s laugh as Norman?

 

[AndrewGilkison]

Otto is a smart guy, so maybe he always suspected Norman was the Goblin? I mean, the guy was flying around the city in military grade hardware targeting Oscorp board members at the Macy's thanksgiving day parade and Oscorp research sites. Wouldn't take much for a genus level scientist to put two and two together.

 

[Detective Conan]

If Marvel ever does an actual MCU Norman after NWH, it would have to be very, very different from what we’ve seen before. I’d imagine the best route to take character now would be to make him a younger who has this reputation for being this wealthy philanthropist but it’s all a facade he projects to steer suspicion of his illegal experiments on humans or Mutants. I wouldn’t have him as a Spider-Man villain, but I would use him to menace to other heroes in the MCU like Fantastic Four or something.