Negativity towards the DC films?

[Marvin]

I enjoyed the warehouse fight, and I accept a different, and far more brutal version of Batman. However, Batman actually planning to murder Superman is a step too far - even Miller's Dark Knight doesn't cross that line. That's where Snyder's Batman really falls apart.

With all due respect, the man was literally making a movie about a batman driven that far. This pointless comparing to a batman that hasn't been driven that far is..pointless.
We don't know what millers batman went through, I kinda know what nolans batman went through in those 8 years personally, and we don't know what aflecks batman went through(parts of which were alluded to) and there in lies the justification. Losing robin in afflecks story could have been still raw and in this paradigm something 10x more brutal, 10x more betrayal and 10x had batman only killed this one person(not joker) on scene, everything would have been different, could have been months long... And this whole thing could have happened 10x times during his career up to that point. That's the magic of not showing it but rather the final product of what he has become, like we know Bane had a super hard life cause we see the result, we are forced to justify the blanks. Solve for X if x - 5 = 9billion. X has to be extreme to solve for the numbers that are given rather than arguing that the numbers are simply too much.
Unless you can state as some 'diamond absolute' that batman would never, could never ever be driven that far, than this film stands to represent 'a batman driven that far' with various quotes that he's different now, in film quotes that he's different from the nolan/miller batman he may have been just prior.

Stated simply I get if it's not for you, I really do. But...nvm.
But for me, batman didn't run through that warehouse with a tactical assault riffle and night vision goggles like the punisher would, that would be the easy non batman way. He did right by me personally. Curious to see how a snyder(/whedon) movie about a more hopeful batman plays.
cheers and peace.

 

[Steamteck]

I do think by now Zack Snyder's name has become synonymous with "style over substance", "needlessly dark/gritty", "to much CGI", "trying to hard to be deep", etc.

I'm seeing his name used almost like a criticism whenever a movie comes out that hits some of those beats.

Only among certain crowd, others see the substance quite easily. Great way to separate those whom I see their opinion is count to mine though.

 

[Bearzooka]

With all due respect, the man was literally making a movie about a batman driven that far.

But why? Who was asking for that? After all the ******** batman went through on film, Nolan finally made audiences understand batman does not kill. It's the defining trait of batman, and what Snyder did was a huge step back for the character.

 

[The Joker]

I do think by now Zack Snyder's name has become synonymous with "style over substance", "needlessly dark/gritty", "to much CGI", "trying to hard to be deep", etc.

Deservedly so. His movies are like that.

 

[Grommers]

But why? Who was asking for that? After all the ******** batman went through on film, Nolan finally made audiences understand batman does not kill. It's the defining trait of batman, and what Snyder did was a huge step back for the character.

This is a really poor understanding of the movie, christopher nolans batman had a 3 year batman journey, and even then he killed alot, just Nolan made it a point to state "i don't kill".

I loved Nolans' batman, probably better than B vs S's batman, but the Batman in B vs S has a lot of room for character growth, this is a batman that's been fighting this battle for so long, with almost zero hope in sight of a better future, he's lost a robin, he's a very broken batman, much like TDKR's early half Batman.

He sees what goes down in Metropolis, and thinks this is where the light to his journey will be, stopping someone who caused the destruction of an entire city, this can be his redemption.

Now, is this totally different from other adapations? Yes, because Batman is the one person who should never waiver, never lose hope, and continually stay focused, and I'd argue that is the biggest flaw, however it's ground work for the rest of the movie which seems to be shaping up to actually revolve around all the characters from the JL.

I some times think people lose sight of the overall purpose of the movie, this particular one is "Dawn of Justice"

It's the dawn of heroes, its' the dawn of what being good means and ensuring Justice comes. Its legitimately in the name, and yet people still view it that these guys are all the heroes we love from the comics which are way further along in their journey

 

[MbJ]

I think Wonder Woman's positive buzz has proven there's no mass conspiracy or bias going on.

 

[Flint Marko]

I think Wonder Woman's positive buzz has proven there's no mass conspiracy or bias going on.

Unfortunately the sad people convinced of "teh DC bias" are going to lean on it being a female superhero movie as justification for why it's well-received.

 

[The Batman]

Yup. Expect some of the more extreme DCEU fanboys to jump through even more hoops and conspiracy theories, all to try and justify why Critics don't like the recent superhero films of a director who hasn't made a non-polarizing film since 2009.

 

[Flint Marko]

Yup. Expect some of the more extreme DCEU fanboys to jump through even more hoops and conspiracy theories, all to try and justify why Critics don't like the recent superhero films of a director who hasn't made a non-polarizing film since 2009.

I never thought about it until now, but it's absolutely fascinating how someone can drum up a conspiracy around a director with as weak a track record as Snyder, or around a stable of characters so insanely iconic and highly-regarded as Batman and Superman who have numerous hit movies based on them.

 

[The Batman]

I never thought about it until now, but it's absolutely fascinating how someone can drum up a conspiracy around a director with as weak a track record as Snyder, or around a stable of characters so insanely iconic and highly-regarded as Batman and Superman who have numerous hit movies based on them.

Denial tends to bring out interesting reactions in people.

 

[Ivan Drago]

Yup. Expect some of the more extreme DCEU fanboys to jump through even more hoops and conspiracy theories, all to try and justify why Critics don't like the recent superhero films of a director who hasn't made a non-polarizing film since 2009.

And even Watchmen was kind of polarized, I think.

 

[Marvin]

I think Wonder Woman's positive buzz has proven there's no mass conspiracy or bias going on.

When all is said and done I'm curious how many will highlight fun/joy/bright/hopeful(like the comics)...and so forth. A great majority do so far and with bold font.

Something that was distinctly not and or missing from the 'dceu' but rather with the other guys, and now supposedly is dc. Subjective quality of films has and can be debated in circles, the objective addition of this particular element is telling, rather it stands to be by the end of the year. Though after they invited the most adamant critics only to have they leave gushing without even seeing a finished product, the case seemed closed. 4 years of lacking quality when really it seemed to be a matter of something else. Guess we'll find out with 'Snyder and Terrios' justice league.

I've never been one to buy into a bias against dc, it's usually people that love dc that go at them almost as hard as the mcu banner men. If there was anything it was a bias against what dc was doing compared to the others. A bias against a supposed lacking quality...or so it seemed.

**forgot to add humor. That ones vital.

 

[Flint Marko]

You'd also think that the success of darker superhero films (most recently with Logan) would put to bed the idea that people just don't like the DCEU films because of their tone, but we're going to be hearing about that for years to come.

 

[Marvin]

Yea man I agree that is interesting.
It's almost as if dark and gritty and somber aren't valid criticism of a film, let alone comic book film out right. Yet they seem to apply to some characters(studios) and not others for some reason. I still find it crazy that they put it in the official RT summery.
I'm hoping Logan proves that super hero movies can be 'dark and gritty and not the least bit fun or funny', not so much to directors but to critics.
I love that film though, a tru thing worthy of being called 'teh dark and gritty'. Glad fox had the stones.

That being said that pesky comic book girl 19's video review of logan is an...interesting watch.

 

[Flint Marko]

That's weird, why is the lightest/funniest DCEU film to date the most poorly reviewed....? It's almost like these movies are bad and poorly received for a variety of reasons that some fans just don't want to admit.

Find me some critic reviews that only list the tone and lack of jokes as the main problem in these films. Oh sure, it absolutely comes up a lot, because if you aren't going to make a good movie (which they certainly haven't), at least make it entertaining. And the funny thing is that they actually did that and look how it turned out. Guess they listened to you.

 

[Marvin]

Nah, i'm through doing u any favors. Especially with stupid backwards errands like 'a list that only lists one thing as the problem' gotdamn lol. I don't speak much on SS(or films i don't like), do my little part to keep things positive. But I did notice an neat trend among the positive reviews that film got...hint something to do with fun. I digress, It is funny how many poorly received films not mention one word whatsoever about being dark and gritty as a criticism. an example, look at every blade film made, and i love blade so sad.

Back to Wondy though,
I mean seriously, you really mean to tell me you can't see the trend here? Only to run around using words like denial(sorry not u i guess)Percentage wise even..meh whatever. Curious how many more will mention that donner element(Can of worms around here).
One of my favorites

I'm still gonna wait till the fun comic 'accurate' snyder(always controversial) jla movie before I commit to anything. Till then to each his own and keep fighting that good fight.

 

[Marvin]

But why? Who was asking for that? After all the ******** batman went through on film, Nolan finally made audiences understand batman does not kill. It's the defining trait of batman, and what Snyder did was a huge step back for the character.

I can't speak for people or their amounts. Rather i won't presume to. speaking for myself I can say I honestly was. I like new interesting directions on things. Every now and then some frank miller or clarmont or byrne does this and the fan base expands. But if i were to pontificate as to the why's. I think it was a matter of opportunity. We've had a dozen batman films at this point, givng the audience the same thing again again the same way does start to get tired(which is why i've been pumped about all new spiderman decisions). Ford Coppola's dracula remade 30 times the same way, hollywood just isn't built that way and thus it's often different. With batman, they aged him(clearly), but they also posed the premise of what if we go backwards. Start broken and journey back to that same old thing as opposed to sell the audience more and more of the same guy with the most cbm films. Another too soon reboot as it were. Outside of Xavier and Superman, I find doing it with batman also interesting, given he's in a world designed to break him. Using superman do catalyst a few things was timely opportunity. The execution is up for debate.
But that's me.

 

[Silvermoth]

I think there's definitely a reason for cynicism from the DC movies and I think DC have cultivated that themselves somewhat. That said, I also think the community is a bit more toxic than the marvel one. Not every marvel fan is perfect but there seems to be a real quickness to anger in the DC fanbase

 

[The Endless]

There is cynicism towards the prior DC movies because the movies themselves have taken a more cynical approach to superheroes.

Nothing necessarily wrong with that in concept... But for a character like Superman?

I'm pretty sure if these were films about The Sentry or Hyperion some people would be maybe more forgiving.

But because they are about the bold, bright, hopeful icon Superman... But paint him in a more cynical light, people aren't connecting to him and thusly are picking up on the more basic film making flaws.

It's like any film really. If your mind is engaged and connected to the characters, you dont really notice the other flaws, or you at leadt forgive them.

Marvels films, even their best ones, have flaws. But they NAIL the characters. They portray characters that audiences connect with and care about... So the flaws are ignored or forgiven.

That isn't a bias. That is just natural human instinct.

 

[Flint Marko]

Nah, i'm through doing u any favors. Especially with stupid backwards errands like 'a list that only lists one thing as the problem' gotdamn lol. I don't speak much on SS(or films i don't like), do my little part to keep things positive. But I did notice an neat trend among the positive reviews that film got...hint something to do with fun. I digress, It is funny how many poorly received films not mention one word whatsoever about being dark and gritty as a criticism. an example, look at every blade film made, and i love blade so sad.

Back to Wondy though,
I mean seriously, you really mean to tell me you can't see the trend here? Only to run around using words like denial(sorry not u i guess)Percentage wise even..meh whatever. Curious how many more will mention that donner element(Can of worms around here).
One of my favorites

I'm still gonna wait till the fun comic 'accurate' snyder(always controversial) jla movie before I commit to anything. Till then to each his own and keep fighting that good fight.

Show me all the tweets in the world talking about "fun", it does nothing to negate the numerous cogent criticisms against the DCEU that have to do with their paper-thin characters, convoluted, generic storylines, uninspired action, overuse of CG, I could keep going. The lack of fun is just the cherry on top because as I said: if you aren't going to make a good movie, at least make it fun.

Marvels films, even their best ones, have flaws. But they NAIL the characters. They portray characters that audiences connect with and care about... So the flaws are ignored or forgiven.

That isn't a bias. That is just natural human instinct.

Marvel has consistently nailed their characters. TDKT and Logan, movies with a drastically different tone (one of them featuring a DC character that people are supposedly "biased" against?), did this as well.

On the other hand the DCEU has given us a borderline-mute, two dimensional Superman who spends most of his time silently reacting to things and a Batman whose only interesting wrinkle is that he's a lunatic. It's no wonder why people aren't connecting to these characters, and it has nothing to do with the amount of jokes.

 

[Marvin]

There is cynicism towards the prior DC movies because the movies themselves have taken a more cynical approach to superheroes.

Nothing necessarily wrong with that in concept... But for a character like Superman?

I'm pretty sure if these were films about The Sentry or Hyperion some people would be maybe more forgiving.

But because they are about the bold, bright, hopeful icon Superman... But paint him in a more cynical light, people aren't connecting to him and thusly are picking up on the more basic film making flaws.

It's like any film really. If your mind is engaged and connected to the characters, you dont really notice the other flaws, or you at leadt forgive them.

Marvels films, even their best ones, have flaws. But they NAIL the characters. They portray characters that audiences connect with and care about... So the flaws are ignored or forgiven.

That isn't a bias. That is just natural human instinct.

Preconceptions, sad but true.
Makes u wonder what these films would actually deserve if they didn't run headlong into such a thing. Rather if people didn't approach superman with that same rhetoric you argued just here, didn't approach a single story with some parameter of; has to not be somber, and optimistic and the rest of the antiquated check list. God forbid they read something like Kingdom Come before coming this film. Maybe it's my own preconceptions that allow me to embrace such things, I've read many a superman story in which he has a 5 o clock shadow and isn't enjoying anything for several issues on end. Or many an episode of jlu..
Point being we all have these ideas from our own experiences with the material, but none have the right to deem one over the other lest the person who only grew up with the fun cartoon wolverine declare logan just as big a failure(speaking of comic book girl 19's review...). I've also read and enjoyed superman books(usually from Azzerello), where he 'says' less words then groot. A 'mute' if you will, but art takes many forms. And you're right, perhaps they would connect with more people if they approached things more by the 'rules'.
But the key word there is I, Too each their own.

Show me all the tweets in the world talking about "fun", it does nothing to negate the numerous cogent criticisms against the DCEU that have to do with their paper-thin characters, convoluted, generic storylines, uninspired action, overuse of CG, I could keep going. The lack of fun is just the cherry on top because as I said: if you aren't going to make a good movie, at least make it fun. But yes, keep fighting the good fight and using the tone as a scapegoat to continually brush aside everything else wrong with these movies.

sure thing pal.
generic storylines, gotta admit that's tempting.
*argued long enough about subjective things, one could list on and on all the faults with say mcu films, it's opinion. 80 critics validation or not, it'll end up in circles of me say uh huh and u saying nah uh. Ergo I point to a more objective, solution. Again, you'll see me post jla. For better or worse.

 

[Flint Marko]

Preconceptions, sad but true.
Makes u wonder what these films would actually deserve if they didn't run headlong into such a thing. Rather if people didn't approach superman with that same rhetoric you argued just here, didn't approach a single story with some parameter of; has to not be somber, and optimistic and the rest of the antiquated check list. God forbid they read something like Kingdom Come before coming this film. Maybe it's my own preconceptions that allow me to embrace such things, I've read many a superman story in which he has a 5 o clock shadow and isn't enjoying anything for several issues on end. Or many an episode of jlu..
Point being we all have these ideas from our own experiences with the material, but none have the right to deem one over the other lest the person who only grew up with the fun cartoon wolverine declare logan just as big a failure(speaking of comic book girl 19's review...). I've also read and enjoyed superman books(usually from Azzerello), where he 'says' less words then groot. A 'mute' if you will, but art takes many forms. And you're right, perhaps they would connect with more people if they approached things more by the 'rules'.
But the key word there is I, Too each their own.

sure thing pal.
generic storylines, gotta admit that's tempting.
*argued long enough about subjective things, one could list on and on all the faults with say mcu films, it's opinion. 80 critics validation or not, it'll end up in circles of me say uh huh and u saying nah uh. Ergo I point to a more objective, solution. Again, you'll see me post jla. For better or worse.

You don't have to agree with the criticisms to recognize that they are there and they are plentiful. That's my entire point. The overwhelming majority of reviews I have read all say the same general things about the poor character work and storytelling, with the tone mentioned as the cherry on top of the steaming pile. You and others seem interested in consistently turning conversations regarding the film's reception towards tone, bias, and preconceptions, and it comes across as a scapegoat trying to dismiss the fact that your opinion does not align with the critics.

 

[Grommers]

My biggest issue that I tend to have is people act like civil war was a billion times better, when most average movie goers I find give both movies the same score.

I thought I'd check the rotten tomatoes, general audience score, which is in Civil War's favour..

but a lot more people have voted on B vs S.

Which I think is extremely odd, a 25% increased voters turn out, given the success of civil war in theatre I felt like more individual's went to go see it, but perhaps it was just families where as more adults went and saw B vs S?

Not a bad thing, just thought it was kind of interesting.

 

[Erzengel]

Or maybe people making multiple accounts to try and vote up BvS?

 

[Grommers]

Or maybe people making multiple accounts to try and vote up BvS?

Actually it has more opportunity to be the opposite, with more individuals creating to negatively spiral something out of control.

My biggest theory is more families probably went and saw Civil War, which as more adults probably went and saw B vs S.