World Web shooter shop class - Part 4

Interesting... I heard there is 400 FEET of silly string in a can if it's true that is amazing and probably could help.
 
Well, It's been a long time since I've been on this web shooter project, and it seems that there are alot of questions that have been recycling since I started this thing with Thebatsam. So I think it would be beneficial to do a little refresher basics course.

What is a webshooter?

according to wikipedia: Shortly after getting his powers, Peter Parker develops a special synthetic polymer adhesive that has spider web-like properties, as well as wrist-worn launching devices. Upon release, the webbing dries into an extremely tough, flexible, adhesive fiber. One account described a single strand as stronger than piano wire and it is perhaps as strong as real spider silk or Kevlar. In Spider-Man: The Ultimate Guide, one strand of webbing is described to be strong enough to bind the Hulk and hold him prisoner, but only if the Hulk were to hold still and let the webbing sufficiently dry. Also, according to recent volumes of The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, the tensile strength of the webbing is equivalent to 120 lb (54 kg) per square millimeter in cross-section and is comparable to nylon with extraordinary adhesive properties

So, you'll notice that I made a few words and phrases bold. That's because they are important.

1.)polymer adhesive? A polymer is a set of monomers. A monomer is a small link in a chain of molecules. Think of polymers as plastics. (plastic is to a polymer as a square is to a rectangle. All plastics are polymers, not all polymers are plastics.

2.) It mentions twice that the polymer has to dry. That implies that the polymer is in fluid form and contains a Solvent. a solvent is a material that dissolves another material. For example acetone is a solvent. If you want to see what it looks like to dissolve something: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9Jx8NRkWTo Once the acetone evaporates, the styrofoam will harden back into a shape. While styrofoam is USUALLY a solid, when you put it into acetone, it becomes a gel/ liquid.

3.)flexible, adhesive fiber: Did you know that not all polymers can make a fiber? Some are really good at becoming films, some rock hard, and others are stringy. Some are naturally sticky. Some are slippery.

4.) It's compared to nylon and kevlar. What are nylon and Kevlar? They are a special "family" of polymers called Aramids. Aramids are polymers with excellent strength and resistance to heat. they are super strong. They have good solvent resistance. That makes them really hard to dissolve, otherwise we could just use them.

So what do we learn about our "WEB fluid?"

1.)It is a polymer that is a strong, fiber forming, adhesive(sticky) and soluble. It must also be somewhere between the strength of nylon and kevlar. It also says spider silk, but... There is such a difference between spiders that I can't tell which spider's web they are talking about.
 
So now that we've discussed more about the properties of Web fluid, we need to discuss what fluids match that description.

Are there any polymers that form fibers, are naturally adhesive, that are easily soluble, and have tensile strength comparable to Kevlar or nylon.

To my knowledge, I know only one. That is polyvinyl alcohol.

Under the name of PVa fibers or Vinylon, you find that polyvinyl alcohol is a water soluble fiber that bonds very well with concrete is naturally somewhat adhesive.

The only other fiber I can think of or polymer, is cellulose acetate, which used to be used to make clothing. It does not however contain good strength.

Polyvinyl alcohol construction fibers have been reported to have tensile strength of 800-2000 megapascals. To put that in every day language steel has 1000 megapascals or something close to that. Kevlar has close to 3600 megapascals, and nylon has less than 1000.

http://tchfc.engin.umich.edu/doc/HawaiiPapers/B/Horikoshi-Properties.pdf

I am pulling these numbers for memory, so they might not be reliable. That being said, if you search the web for polyvinylalcohol tensile strength, you will find that most of these numbers are fairly accurate. In short, polyvinyl alcohol is the only Polymer that we can use to create web fluid.

PVA fibers typically have a tensile strength between 1600 and 2500 MPa, http://www.eng.auburn.edu/files/centers/hrc/930-657.pdf

So does that hit all of our qualifiers?

Polymer? Yup
Strong? Yup (greater than nylon, greater than steel, less than kevlar)
adhesive? Somewhat. In this category I'd say it's somewhat lacking.
Fiberous? You betcha.
Soluble? YES!!! In WATER! That is good because the solvent and the polymer are pretty cheap, biodegradable, and harmless to the human body.

POLYVINYL ALCOHOL IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE FLUID AS OF YET FOR WEBBING!!!

Is there other polymers that are easily soluble? Yes, but not as cheap, safe, or strong.
 
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ok, so now we have our web fluid. Obviously there are others. Put yourself in my shoes, and you take this one fluid and run with it.

So What do we do with this? How does polyvinyl alcohol become a fiber? Well, I will google "synthetic fiber spinning"

(spinning is the process of making a fiber or yarn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_(polymers) )

I look at the pictures because I'm very slow when it comes to reading sciency papers. I see this one:
dry_spinning.jpg


The page mentions that it is called dry spinning. Basically, the fluid gets heated and gets forced through a thing called a spinneret which turns the fluid into several streams like a shower. The fluid then "dries" or in other words, the solvent (water) has to evaporate. As the solvent evaporates, the fluid hardens into fibers.

OK, SO THAT MAKES THE PROJECT EASY. ALL I'M MAKING IS A SMALL DRY SPINNING MACHINE.

The diagram shows:

1.) a pump or something that pressurizes the fluid into the stream.
2.) a jacket that heats the fluid to evaporate the solvent.
3.) Some kind of way to combine the fibers.

Easy enough right?
 
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So Now my brain start to work on What I can build to solve these three issues.

1.) a fluid pressurizer?
A syringe?
FHHIPZQGB3XK8J8.MEDIUM.jpg

An electric pump
entertech_watergun.jpg


2.)heat?
Zippo-Slim-1968-Lit.jpg
fire

oven?http://www.pcog.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/042208-handbystove.jpg

3.) way to combine the fibers?

...

Honestly don't know. so I'll have to think about it.

So I have a few options.
1.) I can make a pressure vessel or buy a pump.
2.) I can use a fire heater or an electric one.
 
being that I like to play safe (and I don't like pressurized or flammable gases) I will pick a pump and an electric heater.

That's when I find:
https://www.amazon.com/registry/wishlist/282A8DTB8G2H/ref=cm_sw_r_ip_wl_o_xxlaub0N86PK7

On that list includes a pump, electric heating, some batteries, and while I was at it I added PVA. Also, while I was thinking about it, I realized... my spinneret is going to get freakin' hot. That means it will melt through the tubing. I found some high heat tubing that can touch hot metal and be ok. So I have a basic list.

That is where I am in the project. You should now be caught up with the creator of this forum.
 
That is really AMAZING :hubba you are like my teacher and I like what plagunos said ''Dissolve the PVa in a 60% aqueous ethanol so it evaporates quickly''
 
I'm honestly am so amazed by the knowledge of everybody in here. I think its great that you guys have been able to come this far on something that i thought was reserved for the comics and movies. You have all have done a great job on this project and hopefully we can come up with a final design soon.
 
That is AMAZING! also yeah that could work bsd but we could also make the spinneret at about 150° c. and that would work too
 
I am very new to this subject and this forum. And I know that I probably do not grasp the full concept of this web shooter. I have a very small understanding of how this process works. As far as I know the web shooter consists of

A pressurized and heated cannister or cartridge filled with PVA is pushed through a spinneret which leads to a heating coil that will evaporate the liquid in to a solid this new substance then gets pushed through the nozzle creating the rope like web.

thats all I can remember off the top of my head and if anybody can inform me on the missing parts of my simple and incomplete design. that would be much appreciated. thank you very much.
 
No, that's pretty much it :) , except the pressurized cannister doesn't have to be heated.

pressurized Canister-->valve-->heated spinneret which acts as a nozzle.

tank--> pump--> heated spinneret which acts as a nozzle.
 
im sorry if it sounds dumb, but are those two different processes of a web shooter, or are both of those lines for the same one?
 
okay so i have read through most of all 4 parts of this forum and it seems as it has gone on that the real solution for a final design has gotten simpler and simpler. It almost seem too easy for such an amazing invention lol. are there any small details about the design that i should know? how much pressure for the cartridge? is the web fluid PVA only? or is it mixed with another solution? How much heat does the spinneret need to be able to withstand?
 
Brodysal said:
okay so i have read through most of all 4 parts of this forum and it seems as it has gone on that the real solution for a final design has gotten simpler and simpler. It almost seem too easy for such an amazing invention lol. are there any small details about the design that i should know? how much pressure for the cartridge? is the web fluid PVA only? or is it mixed with another solution? How much heat does the spinneret need to be able to withstand?
Click to expand...

I'm trying to make it simple so that everyone could make one. That is the point of spiderman. He is a poor high school student. It's all tinkering.

pressure for cartridge? Depends on the fluid. Try fiddling around with it.

Web fluid? I think Polyvinyl alcohol is THE ONLY fluid. Since none of us are chem majors, let's not screw with a working molecular formula.

Heat: That depends on the solvent. We've discovered something called the liedenfrost effect. If you raise the temperature of a fluid to 2 times it's boiling point, it won't evaporate. You need a temperature that is between the boiling point and the liedenfrost temperature. for water that is somewhere between 100 degrees celcius and 199 degrees. I choose 175 ish.
 
water does the same thing to polyvinyl alcohol as acetone does to styrofoam.

water is surprisingly one of the ONLY things that can dissolve it. I think either ethanol or alcohol and DMSO are the only others that can, but come on, water is SO cheap.
 
so does this mean that in the cartiridges i would need to load them with a mixture of water and PVA or juts PVA. sorry if these questons seem dumb and useless. just trying to really get a full understanding of the whole process.
 
Brodysal said:
so does this mean that in the cartiridges i would need to load them with a mixture of water and PVA or juts PVA. sorry if these questons seem dumb and useless. just trying to really get a full understanding of the whole process.
Click to expand...

no issue! It would be both water and PVOH. You need that PVOH to be a fluid. The only way to do that is to mix it with water.

I'm going to bed, but type up the remainder of your questions in an email. I can give you a more specific reply, plus, I want others to see the four posts where I actually explain the basics.
 
I am Trystan on the Chatzy chat room since that is my real name if I can change it I will.
 
I have an original question.

White Widow, did you happen to forget your password?
 
Sort of. I not only forgot my password, but my email address was liquidated.
 
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