James Bond 24 - Part 2

[Octoberist]

Personally, I don't care the series is sooo soo liberal with continuity. Even though Skyfall delved into his background, its' the only film that talks about it. And briefly in Casino Royale.

As much as love Bond, the cinematic Bond has always been this cypher in whose adventures and sex we want to live out vicariously. There's not much to Bond (in the movies) beyond the pulpiness and that's why we love the character.

If they kept on talking about his Scottish family in EVERY movie since the 60's, reboot or not, then yes, it would be a problem.

But even with Bond 24, the events of Skyfall probably won't be relevant to the plot besides Ralph's M, Money Penny and Q. Each movie gets reset.

 

[Octoberist]

I didn't find his cockney accent bad either it just sounded weird coming from Denzel because I'm so used to hearing his own accent.

Denzel does a way better cockney accent than Don Cheadle does in the Oceans films.

Forest Whitaker is another African American who does a pretty good English accent.

I guess I'm the only one who loves Cheadle's cockney.

 

[The Shape]

Think there's any chance of "Quantum" making a return in this next one?

 

[Pink Ranger]

King Prawn Vindaloo with Chicken Tikka
Might stick a Bond film on when eating it

Never Say Naan Again
Live And Let Dal
From Tikka With Love
Kormapussy
Tandoori Live Twice

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

We have have a black Felix and now a black Moneypenny. We had a female M who wasn't afraid to let Bond know who was in-charge. In Skyfall Bond gave a little hint he might of had some Bisexual experiences. I think the Bond franchise has been a bit progressive in recent years. For a mainstream franchise based on old school manly stuff Bond films have pushed the boat out more than you would expect.

Agreed. I find it ridiculous to say that Bond hasn't had progress. It's such a strawman argument to say that not having or allowing a black Bond isn't progress. It would feel more like pandering to me. This isn't like Michael B Jordan where you're starting a whole new story and universe. You're essentially saying that James Bond is a codename.

It's like I said before. Bond isn't a codename. He's a character. Going from Craig to Elba would be like changing Ethan Hunt from Tom Cruise to Will Smith in between Mission Impossible movies.

 

[Octoberist]

I think the new henchman should be named Van Gough and is missing..an EAR during the Iraq war!

 

[regwec]

Actually, Bond being Black (at least in this day and age) changes next to nothing about his character. Literally every single of Bond's recognizable character/personality traits can easily apply to a minority character. And no, Bond having a "black best friend" DOES NOT represent progress, at all. 1. He's already had those in other films, including the current Felix Lieter, and 2. it's one of the oldest/most overused cliché's out there. And the "PC" argument is such tired, overused, meaningless nonsense that it's not even worth addressing beyond saying that if that's the best argument you've got, then you never had much of one to begin with.

What argument do you have, other than that it is "progressive"? What exactly do you mean by that term, and is the notion of white people turning black really a good example of it?

 

[jmc]

Personally, I don't care the series is sooo soo liberal with continuity. Even though Skyfall delved into his background, its' the only film that talks about it. And briefly in Casino Royale.

As much as love Bond, the cinematic Bond has always been this cypher in whose adventures and sex we want to live out vicariously. There's not much to Bond (in the movies) beyond the pulpiness and that's why we love the character.

If they kept on talking about his Scottish family in EVERY movie since the 60's, reboot or not, then yes, it would be a problem.

But even with Bond 24, the events of Skyfall probably won't be relevant to the plot besides Ralph's M, Money Penny and Q. Each movie gets reset.

For whatever reason Bond has always had a continuity issue that people just accept, I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about things being inconsistent in the Bond series. You couldn't have such a loose continuity with a film franchise these days.

 

[DACrowe]

It comes from an era where people did not obsess over pointless minutia. Today, if you make a good movie, but it fails to fit in perfectly with 15 other films, or worse does not even try to fit in with 15 other films, fans howl until the reboots come home.

 

[Slushy]

Think there's any chance of "Quantum" making a return in this next one?

Always have hope!

 

[jmc]

It comes from an era where people did not obsess over pointless minutia. Today, if you make a good movie, but it fails to fit in perfectly with 15 other films, or worse does not even try to fit in with 15 other films, fans howl until the reboots come home.

Perhaps we should try and get back to that episodic concept where continuity is looser. There are two things fans can do in that situation, suck it up and watch the film or don't.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Episodic...

A Bond game by Telltale?

 

[The Shape]

What argument do you have, other than that it is "progressive"? What exactly do you mean by that term, and is the notion of white people turning black really a good example of it?

I hope we have a purple James Bond soon. Now THAT will be progressive.

 

[DKDetective]

The big public schools were probably never really institutionally racist, nor were Oxford or Cambridge. The difficulty was in paying your way, or having the academic credentials (which require an excellent prior education). The children of princes and politicians all over the commonwealth have studied at these institutions since Queen Victoria's time, but they would have been beyond the reach of most immigrants or their immediate offspring.

Okay, I knew that Eton is still boys only, so I thought they might have had racial issues as well. Yeah, that's what I meant about informally segregated. Even if there was no institutional racist policy, unless you were the child of a commonwealth leader, it seemed unlikely that a person of colour would find their way in back then either as a result of inability to pay or lack of family connections. A Briton of colour at that time would likely be the child of a recent immigrant or not far removed from one.

Actually, Bond being Black (at least in this day and age) changes next to nothing about his character. Literally every single of Bond's recognizable character/personality traits can easily apply to a minority character. And no, Bond having a "black best friend" DOES NOT represent progress, at all. 1. He's already had those in other films, including the current Felix Lieter, and 2. it's one of the oldest/most overused cliché's out there. And the "PC" argument is such tired, overused, meaningless nonsense that it's not even worth addressing beyond saying that if that's the best argument you've got, then you never had much of one to begin with.

Does it really? Can you really associate such old-fashioned, conservative world views, snobbery, and sense of British superiority to a minority Briton? I'm sorry, but there is a reason why the Democrats in the US and left-wing political parties in general tend to attract a large majority of minority voters. Conservative interests and entitlements do not find much sympathy with people who have been the victims of institutional prejudice and marginalization. Bond as a character does not make much sense as anything other than a crusty, middle aged white guy. Bond's attitudes are very much those of British old money (or old middle-class at the least) and, as such, are antithetical to a minority background.

 

[Octoberist]

'Her' and 'Interstellar' cinematographer Hoyte van Hoytema to fill Roger Deakins' shoes on Sam Mendes' Bond 24

BAFTA-nominated cinematographer Hoyte van Hoytema has been turning heads ever since his stunning work in the stylish Swedish horror film "Let the Right One In" crossed the Atlantic six years ago. And lately, he's just getting all the good gigs, having stepped in for Spike Jonze regular Lance Acord on last year's "Her" and for Christopher Nolan's right hand man Wally Pfister on the upcoming "Interstellar." Well, you can add another big pair of shoes for the talented director of photography to fill. With Roger Deakins exiting the James Bond franchise after 2012's "Skyfall," we can confirm that director Sam Mendes has tapped van Hoytema to shoot the still untitled 24th installment of the series.

I can't confirm it but I've heard that the Bond series will also be going back to film with this installment. Van Hoytema obviously shot "Interstellar" on film, given that Nolan remains one of the most outspoken worshippers of celluloid there is, as well as "Tinker Tailor." "Her," however, was filmed digitally via the Arri Alexa. All of that just goes to show that he knows how to give you an arresting image whatever the medium, so if the new Bond indeed goes back to analog, so be it. I'm sure it will be beautiful.

Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/in-contention...oes-on-sam-mendes-bond-24#cQSiejZ0RS5dOsdh.99

 

[Loki882]

What argument do you have, other than that it is "progressive"? What exactly do you mean by that term, and is the notion of white people turning black really a good example of it?

Simple, if they get a good actor that can pull off the character traits that actually matter for Bond (charm, charisma, badassery, womanizer, etc) who just happens to be Black, then I've got zero problems with it. "Progressiveness" has nothing to do with it. Well unless you think that Bond's defining/most important trait is that he's white, and not his actual character. Because by that logic, Craig should never have been Bond because he's got Blonde and not dark hair, Brosnan should never have been Bond because he's Irish instead of English, etc. Wow, that was really easy, try harder next time.

 

[Loki882]

Okay, I knew that Eton is still boys only, so I thought they might have had racial issues as well. Yeah, that's what I meant about informally segregated. Even if there was no institutional racist policy, unless you were the child of a commonwealth leader, it seemed unlikely that a person of colour would find their way in back then either as a result of inability to pay or lack of family connections. A Briton of colour at that time would likely be the child of a recent immigrant or not far removed from one.



Does it really? Can you really associate such old-fashioned, conservative world views, snobbery, and sense of British superiority to a minority Briton? I'm sorry, but there is a reason why the Democrats in the US and left-wing political parties in general tend to attract a large majority of minority voters. Conservative interests and entitlements do not find much sympathy with people who have been the victims of institutional prejudice and marginalization. Bond as a character does not make much sense as anything other than a crusty, middle aged white guy. Bond's attitudes are very much those of British old money (or old middle-class at the least) and, as such, are antithetical to a minority background.

No not really. There's really nothing in movie Bond that mimics "old-school snobbery," unless you count the womanizing and love of the finer things in life (both of which could easily apply to a non-white actor). I've seen nothing in the attitude/world view of say Craig or Brosnan's Bond for example that you couldn't swap out for a non-white actor and keep them pretty much the same. Heck Vesper even calls him out for having a chip on his shoulder in CR since he didn't come from a lot of money. Oh and yes, non-white Britons can thing that Britain is superior, just like plenty of non-white Americans think that the US is "the greatest country on Earth."

 

[Octoberist]

No one cares about Hoyte?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I care about him and his dashing caveman gaze.

 

[Ajendo]

Hoyte as cinematographer was something I mentioned here a while back actually post #723 of this thread, 10 pages back but it's nice and unsurprising to have it confirmed officially this close to principle photography.

 

[regwec]

Simple, if they get a good actor that can pull off the character traits that actually matter for Bond (charm, charisma, badassery, womanizer, etc) who just happens to be Black, then I've got zero problems with it. "Progressiveness" has nothing to do with it. Well unless you think that Bond's defining/most important trait is that he's white, and not his actual character. Because by that logic, Craig should never have been Bond because he's got Blonde and not dark hair, Brosnan should never have been Bond because he's Irish instead of English, etc. Wow, that was really easy, try harder next time.

I haven't "tried" at all, and nor have you, apparently, since you used the term "progressive" then ditched it once challenged about its use. You have also shifted the discussion from the argument that was originally under debate (a non-white Bond is "important" and "needs to happen" soon), to a much tamer one; i.e. that an actor should not be excluded by virtue of his race alone. I somewhat agree with the latter, insofar as it applies to characters who have few established cultural traits (I have long argued that you could change the race of most comicbook superheroes). Bond is not one of these, in my opinion, unless you reduce him to some sort of non-character who merely exudes the "traits" you describe.

How many characters in fiction have "charm, charisma, badassery" and are a "womanizer"? Thousands. Are you really arguing that Bond is just an off-the-peg trope of this nature?

 

[DKDetective]

No not really. There's really nothing in movie Bond that mimics "old-school snobbery," unless you count the womanizing and love of the finer things in life (both of which could easily apply to a non-white actor). I've seen nothing in the attitude/world view of say Craig or Brosnan's Bond for example that you couldn't swap out for a non-white actor and keep them pretty much the same. Heck Vesper even calls him out for having a chip on his shoulder in CR since he didn't come from a lot of money. Oh and yes, non-white Britons can thing that Britain is superior, just like plenty of non-white Americans think that the US is "the greatest country on Earth."

No, Bond's specific attitudes to food and drink suggest descent from an old family and being raised with money or at least taught how to blend into upper class society. That sort of snobbery isn't very common among the new rich, which a minority Bond would be. See the Dowager Countess vs Harold Levinson on Downton Abbey for a comparison of old vs new rich attitudes in popular culture. Yes, Bond didn't come from a lot of money as Vesper suggested, but he came from an old Scottish family with a respected name and past wealth (aka got into Fettes as a legacy and you saw Skyfall Lodge). It's not just about the Anglo-superiority. I said his entire conservative world view, "to be English is to rule and sacrifice" sort of thing. There is a certain amount of racism and imperialism bundled up in that idea. Since Goldeneye, the Bond films have repeatedly reinforced that Bond is relic of a past era with archaic views. The character has been nolstalgic for the days of glory and empire since the Casino Royale were first published. He is not supposed to be progressive, that is antithetical to the very point of the character.

 

[Warhammer]

'Her' and 'Interstellar' cinematographer Hoyte van Hoytema to fill Roger Deakins' shoes on Sam Mendes' Bond 24

Terrific. This film will be beautiful. I'm still upset that Deakins got robbed.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I want a chav Bond. He goes everywhere in a Hyde FC jersey, and every scene where he's not fighting or driving a car, he must be holding a pint or eating curry out of a oily foil takeway box.

 

[Schlosser85]

Trying to basically steal a white character and make him black is racist, just as much as whitewashing, say, Shaft.

If I wanted to, I could make a disingenuous argument that the only traits that matter about Shaft are the same ones Loki ascribed to Bond: cool, charisma, badass, womanizer.

But is that true? No, there are things about Shaft's character that are hugely influenced by the fact that he is black, just as Bond's character is influenced by him being a white Englishman of old money descent.