Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 58

[Iceman]

See, Red Guardian didn't really bother me in the 2nd act, because it was family interaction. That was great. Yeah, the CGI escape was bad.

I like the family element a lot in Widow. I may watch this again soon.

 

[kguillou]

Overall the movie's good. I was tepid on it when I saw it in theater but upon rewatches I've warmed to it a lot. I just kind of chaffe against some of the comedy in Act II with Red Guardian and whatnot. I wished they fully committed to the spy thriller tone that the they were kind of going for.

 

[Zarex]

With the exception of the Taskmaster family I thought the BW characters were excellent. But imo smaller stakes would have worked a whole lot better. Ditch the brainwashing spray, the army of Windows waiting to be activated like Wakandan War Dogs and the flying fortress and you've got a very good film.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

So I am watching Dark Phoenix and they didn’t retcon Jean having Phoenix powers all over again right? The alien thingy wasn’t the Phoenix force. It was just a thing. Her powers were already hers. They were just boosted by the alien thingy.

 

[Sithborg]

So I am watching Dark Phoenix and they didn’t retcon Jean having Phoenix powers all over again right? The alien thingy wasn’t the Phoenix force. It was just a thing. Her powers were already hers. They were just boosted by the alien thingy.

Who the **** knows. I don't hate the film, but they were trying to go with like 3 different metaphors for Jean, so it is a big mess.

 

[Ninjablade]

God, I hate Black Widow. It's a toss up between that and Multiverse of Madness for which MCU movie I detest more.

 

[flickchick85]

I enjoy Black Widow for Yelena and pretty much Yelena only. But since she’s in 85% of the movie, that’s good enough for me, lol. It’s far from the top tier of my MCU rankings, but there are definitely Marvel flicks I’ve enjoyed far less in recent times (Multiverse of Madness and Eternals, I’m looking at you).

 

[Monochron]

Eternals is my favorite 2021 MCU film.

 

[Marvel united]

All Marvel Studios has to do to make a better X-Men movie than the last 3, is to make the movie actually about the X-Men.

 

[Detective Conan]

This Peacemaker scene shouldn’t have aged eerily as well as it ultimately did:

 

[Marvel united]

Doom in the MCU needs a theme/motif as iconic as One-Winged Angel (Sepiroth) or the Imperial March.

Just something that can become instantly recognizable and iconic.

 

[Boy Scout]

Doom in the MCU needs a theme/motif as iconic as One-Winged Angel (Sepiroth) or the Imperial March.

Just something that can become instantly recognizable and iconic.

If you ask me: everyone does.

One of the things I loved about TB was how often it referenced the main theme whenever Batman did something cool. A little differently each time and not long or loud enough to be obnoxious. Some of the best use of music I’ve heard in a long, long time.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Eternals is one of those movies where I feel like there was something better trying to come out but it just didn’t. It’s a shame, especially given all the talent involved. I especially feel bad for Gemma Chan. Feige went to her and was like, “We wasted someone of your talent on a side character. Let me make it up to you.” And the result was a movie where every actor felt wasted on one-note characters.

 

[kguillou]

I think Zhao was only interested in making an introspective character piece about Gods but of course she struggled to do that and make a crowd pleasing action blockbuster.

 

[Batgirl0202]

Except appealing to morality is like talking to a brick wall. The only thing these studios understand is money. That’s why we have to attack the bottom line instead.

Agreed. And let's face it, WBD is gonna take a bath on this film anyway you look at it. I don't see how Flash could possibly be profitable at this point...

I'm thinking a theatrical release might be their riskiest move. At least if they shelve the movie now, their big promotional push hasn't fully kicked in yet. Does the studio really wanna dump another $100 million on marketing and distribution for this thing? Or yet another $100 million for reshooting Miller's scenes?

I have no doubt that a small subset of the viewing audience would be morbidly curious enough to see Flash in theatres. But I refuse to believe that the vast majority of moviegoers - at least the ones with any kind of decent moral compass - would be willing to support this film with their hard-earned dollars. I have to cling to some belief in the goodness of humanity after all...

I agree that the studio's safest bet at this point would be to dump Flash on HBO Max. Make it a Holiday exclusive with limited promotion, assign the production costs to their streaming content budget, and write-off the rest towards their theatrical unit. However, as @kguillou pointed out, there are tons of other fiscal considerations to worry about. There are undoubtedly countless corporate partnerships, product tie-ins, media contracts, participation agreements for the cast & crew...all the flotsam and jetsam typical of big-budget filmmaking to consider. And that doesn't even include all the ancillary sources of income that will be lost - VOD, streaming, physical/digital releases, etc. Undoubtedly there are tens of millions of dollars in pre-signed contracts that will have to be made null & void...

Man I wouldn't wanna be on WBD's board of directors right now, but the argument can be made that they created this ****storm themselves by ignoring all the warning signs surrounding Miller from day one...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

God, I hate Black Widow. It's a toss up between that and Multiverse of Madness for which MCU movie I detest more.

Explain. On second thought...

I enjoy Black Widow for Yelena and pretty much Yelena only. But since she’s in 85% of the movie, that’s good enough for me, lol. It’s far from the top tier of my MCU rankings, but there are definitely Marvel flicks I’ve enjoyed far less in recent times (Multiverse of Madness and Eternals, I’m looking at you).

Yelena is amazing. She's everything I ever wanted Black Widow to be. And seeing Weisz in a fun role, reminded me of my love of the Mummy, which, always good. But the best thing about Black Widow...

 

[DocLathropBrown]

I have no doubt that a small subset of the viewing audience would be morbidly curious enough to see Flash in theatres. But I refuse to believe that the vast majority of moviegoers - at least the ones with any kind of decent moral compass - would be willing to support this film with their hard-earned dollars. I have to cling to some belief in the goodness of humanity after all...

I agree that the studio's safest bet at this point would be to dump Flash on HBO Max. Make it a Holiday exclusive with limited promotion, assign the production costs to their streaming content budget, and write-off the rest towards their theatrical unit. However, as @kguillou pointed out, there are tons of other fiscal considerations to worry about. There are undoubtedly countless corporate partnerships, product tie-ins, media contracts, participation agreements for the cast & crew...all the flotsam and jetsam typical of big-budget filmmaking to consider. And that doesn't even include all the ancillary sources of income that will be lost - VOD, streaming, physical/digital releases, etc. Undoubtedly there are tens of millions of dollars in pre-signed contracts that will have to be made null & void...

Thing is, unless Miller had a profit percentage of the movie in their contract, they've already made their money from the performance. Not seeing the movie wouldn't prevent them from earning, in that case. Perhaps there are royalties from home video sales and such... but if I were WB I'd donate those proceeds to mental health awareness/sexual assault victim charities, if they could find a way to legally void those areas of Miller's contract. Also, scrap all merch for the movie that features Flash himself, or scrap the likeness to Miller from it all, that way Ezra doesn't get likeness royalties.

I've been thinking about it a lot in the last couple of days and my stance has changed, slightly. I think that with a public-enough firing of Miller, along with heavily promoting said donations could help offset (not eliminate) the controversy of the movie. You certainly couldn't release the movie untouched if it seemed like Miller wasn't facing consequences, but once fired it becomes a little more doable, as any talk of Miller from the studio can be aligned with the public opinion. Of course, I still think you need to re-shoot the ending to make clear they're replaced by the end.

It wouldn't be a perfect solution, but in all honesty the public at large isn't as aware of this stuff as most of us on the internet think. This hasn't been reported widely enough yet (though it would be once promotion started up), as for right now, you sort-of have to be traveling in geek communities on the 'net to really know all the gory details. If WB jumped on controlling the wider narrative early (that Miller's actions are fully condemned by WB and they want to spread awareness of such problems/people), then that would actually probably be enough for most people.

You know, combined with what we've said before about pushing the stuff in the movie that people actually WANT to see--Keaton being chief among them. Sure, the profit's gonna take a hit either way, but in a world where someone like Trump can get elected, don't put much faith in people's desire to pay enough attention or spend the energy on moral outrage. I think that's probably the best way to take the bath on the movie while minimizing the losses. It's gonna take a hit, no matter what... but it's potentially less of a hit this way than either shelving the movie or replacing Miller in the footage.

EDIT: Even more, as part of controlling the narrative, I could see WB filming a promo with Keaton that plays before every showing of the movie, talking about WB's donations and what to do if you've been groomed/assaulted (make it classier by not specifically mentioning Miller by name), and have Keaton say something like "in spite of the controversy, this film employed thousands of people and brought jobs (etc), and we wanted to honor the work these artisans put in by releasing their work to the world", and pan back to show the entire crew shouting "thank you" or something.

That would be quite the attempt at a moral power move by WB

 

[kguillou]

And here’s the other thing to consider, I’m not entirely sure Miller’s controversies have hit mainstream yet. Yes us in the comic book and film community are well aware of this but are Joe and Jane pubic aware of all this Miller drama? Has this reached Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial levels of media coverage? I’m not so sure. So a lot of people may in fact go see it blissfully ignorant of whats going on with its main star. (Again ASSUMING things calm down between now and next year). I dont even think Ezra Miller is a household name anyway that many people are even aware of.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

 

[Ninjablade]

Explain. On second thought...

Quality gif usage

And here’s the other thing to consider, I’m not entirely sure Miller’s controversies have hit mainstream yet. Yes us in the comic book and film community are well aware of this but are Joe and Jane pubic aware of all this Miller drama? Has this reached Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial levels of media coverage? I’m not so sure. So a lot of people may in fact go see it blissfully ignorant of whats going on with its main star. (Again ASSUMING things calm down between now and next year). I dont even think Ezra Miller is a household name anyway that many people are even aware of.

Just anecdotally, everyone I know is at least vaguely aware of the situation. It's certainly making the rounds for most people because there are just so many incidents piling up.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Oooooold.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

And here’s the other thing to consider, I’m not entirely sure Miller’s controversies have hit mainstream yet. Yes us in the comic book and film community are well aware of this but are Joe and Jane pubic aware of all this Miller drama? Has this reached Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial levels of media coverage? I’m not so sure. So a lot of people may in fact go see it blissfully ignorant of whats going on with its main star. (Again ASSUMING things calm down between now and next year). I don't even think Ezra is a household name anyway that many people are even aware of.

Miller doesn't even have name value. They might have, if the previous films in which they'd appeared had been better received. People just know that movie Flash isn't as good as TV Flash... and that's about the extent of their knowledge. Now, obviously once the film promotion had ramped up, news outlets of every kind were going to start covering Miller and their antics on a grand scale--so if WB plans on releasing the movie mostly as-is, then they have to get ahead of that bad press, control the narrative and make clear that Miller is out. These types of stories are usually covered in the media with a question of "is it right to promote this actor," "how can this person not face consequences," etc, so firing Miller very publicly before release already takes the biggest wind out of those sails. There's still going to be negativity around it, and people who feel it wasn't enough or whatever, but at this point it's about finding the best way to mitigate the losses caused by Ezra--the film is past the point of truly being profitable except as a new foundation for the movies. All it can be is an investment in the DCEU going forward.

With my approach, WB might at least make enough off the movie and ancillary material to break even, and then once it's out of the way--onwards and upwards. Replacing Miller in the footage is just a money-pit idea. Sure now it's controversy-free, but it'd have to make a billion dollars just to break even, at that point. Minimize promotional expenses (also no press junket), shorten the theatrical release window and cut costs in post-production (any Flash scenes that the film can go without, delete). If they keep the costs really tight, and the film is only (say) $200 million to make and only spend $50 million on promotion? The film only has to make about $500 million to break even and that's probably pretty doable. More if you really push Keaton in the marketing.

 

[Lily Adler]

i said this in the Flash forum but i still think Zaslov and the WBD are HOPING this whole thing will boil over since we still have a full year before the movie comes out and Ezra at some point issues a public statement about their side of the story and whats been going on with them in hopes garnering some public empathy. That way WBD can have their cake and eat it too, release the movie next year, make some money and then fire Ezra and start fresh after.

Yeah this isn't a simple DUI that ends in racial slurs. This is actually career ending or in Polanski's case flee the country lateral move.

 

[Fosterson]

Yeah this isn't a simple DUI that ends in racial slurs. This is actually career ending or in Polanski's case flee the country lateral move.

Difference is that the world's attitude to these things has (fortunately) changed a LOT since 1977 and also Miller doesn't have a fraction of the clout that Polanski did.

Polanski was Hollywood royalty by the time he fled in 1977. He and his films had been nominated for (and won) multiple Academy Awards and other high-profile accolades. Miller doesn't remotely have that kind of standing in the industry. Its hard to see him fleeing abroad and still managing to have a long and successful career like Polanski did.

 

[Fosterson]

And here’s the other thing to consider, I’m not entirely sure Miller’s controversies have hit mainstream yet. Yes us in the comic book and film community are well aware of this but are Joe and Jane pubic aware of all this Miller drama? Has this reached Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial levels of media coverage? I’m not so sure. So a lot of people may in fact go see it blissfully ignorant of whats going on with its main star. (Again ASSUMING things calm down between now and next year). I dont even think Ezra Miller is a household name anyway that many people are even aware of.

I think you're right. Its easy for us who are in the CBM news bubble to forget that most people don't follow this stuff. And Miller's profile is probably way too small for it to get on most people's radars.

It would be different if Affleck or Keaton were the ones being accused of this disgusting behaviour.