Daredevil Daredevil: FULL SEASON THREE Discussion Thread (Beware, Spoilers Galore!)

[dmcreif]

Your second sentence contradicts your first. How can you say that we nearly never get to see Matt act like a lawyer and then say that in season 1, Matt's lawyer abilities are just as important as his punching abilities to bringing down Fisk? You can't have it both ways. And isn't it good that Matt doesn't try bringing down Fisk the same way he did in season 1? Wouldn't that just be repetitive?

[sigh] What I meant was, in season 1, Matt's lawyering was as essential to bringing down Fisk as what he was doing as Daredevil. But ever since 2x04 and Elektra showed up, Matt's leaned too much into his Daredevil side and not been able to find a balance between his two lives. Plus, Charlie Cox had said something on the pre-Defenders cons about "Lessons Matt learns in The Defenders will carry over into DDS3" and one of those, I'd hoped, would be the importance of allies, rather than turn up the "Lone Hero Who Must Work Alone" crap.

At least, I'd have been happy with a Matt+Karen teamup starting early on, maybe starting in episode 3 when she showed up in the courtyard at the hotel.

Plus, I'm gonna be honest, if we had more of Matt being a lawyer in season 3, we could have had things that resolved some other plot points. Like, whatever happened to Stewart Finney and the Hispanic brothers that Fisk hired as muscle while he was in prison during season 2? Another one is that I really wish Matt had done more to help Melvin after Melvin got arrested, and that could've been an interesting subplot of Matt trying to defend Melvin while also trying to keep Melvin from learning that he's Daredevil, and ultimately failing at that. (Unless the writers intentionally left the Melvin thread unresolved so they could set him up to be the full-on Gladiator in season 4, if season 4 ever happens. I'd love to see Matt eventually get the red suit back.)

Speaking of unresolved plot points and secret identity shenangians, Fisk figuring out Matt is Daredevil. We know Fisk saw Matt fight in the prison but I don't think there was ever that 'Eureka' moment. I mean...it was all confirmed when he got Matt's medical records from Donovan, and spoke to Karen, but it was more of this slow "connecting of the dots" sort of situation. We never really saw him react to it. I think we really should have gotten that kind of reaction. Like, if we had a scene of Fisk watching that fight over the security cameras, and having that moment of realization, it could've gone somewhere very interesting. Then Fisk getting Matt's medical records, and maybe a scene of him obsessively trying to figure out how is a blind man capable of doing that? Then looking through any and all footage, any and all evidence, of him as Daredevil, kinda like we saw him doing with Dex's records. Does Fisk think Matt's faking being blind somehow? When he says Matt's name to Nadeem, does he have a plan beyond 'let's ruin his day even more than I already have?' Because getting the FBI to catch Matt for him is pretty smart but, also, does it change his endgame? And did he really think the FBI would be able to catch him?

Hell, I'd have been all for a season 2 style confrontation between Matt in his unmasked lawyer mode, and Fisk. It wouldn't be repetitive, because Matt no longer having to pretend to not be able to fight back would certainly change his approach to the situation. Or, at least, how he'd talk to Fisk.

'Cause when Matt unmasks himself in that final fight, is Fisk looking at him like 'he's actually blind??' and internally having this burning need to understand and dissect everything to do with this unprecedented situation because he does not like new variables in his universe? Secret identity tropes are very rampant in Daredevil (in a good way), and this was one of the most pivotal identity reveal moments in the show. I feel it got short-changed a bit.

 

[Whatupman]

[sigh] What I meant was, in season 1, Matt's lawyering was as essential to bringing down Fisk as what he was doing as Daredevil. But ever since 2x04 and Elektra showed up, Matt's leaned too much into his Daredevil side and not been able to find a balance between his two lives. Plus, Charlie Cox had said something on the pre-Defenders cons about "Lessons Matt learns in The Defenders will carry over into DDS3" and one of those, I'd hoped, would be the importance of allies, rather than turn up the "Lone Hero Who Must Work Alone" crap.

At least, I'd have been happy with a Matt+Karen teamup starting early on, maybe starting in episode 3 when she showed up in the courtyard at the hotel.

Plus, I'm gonna be honest, if we had more of Matt being a lawyer in season 3, we could have had things that resolved some other plot points. Like, whatever happened to Stewart Finney and the Hispanic brothers that Fisk hired as muscle while he was in prison during season 2? Another one is that I really wish Matt had done more to help Melvin after Melvin got arrested, and that could've been an interesting subplot of Matt trying to defend Melvin while also trying to keep Melvin from learning that he's Daredevil, and ultimately failing at that. (Unless the writers intentionally left the Melvin thread unresolved so they could set him up to be the full-on Gladiator in season 4, if season 4 ever happens. I'd love to see Matt eventually get the red suit back.)

Speaking of unresolved plot points and secret identity shenangians, Fisk figuring out Matt is Daredevil. We know Fisk saw Matt fight in the prison but I don't think there was ever that 'Eureka' moment. I mean...it was all confirmed when he got Matt's medical records from Donovan, and spoke to Karen, but it was more of this slow "connecting of the dots" sort of situation. We never really saw him react to it. I think we really should have gotten that kind of reaction. Like, if we had a scene of Fisk watching that fight over the security cameras, and having that moment of realization, it could've gone somewhere very interesting. Then Fisk getting Matt's medical records, and maybe a scene of him obsessively trying to figure out how is a blind man capable of doing that? Then looking through any and all footage, any and all evidence, of him as Daredevil, kinda like we saw him doing with Dex's records. Does Fisk think Matt's faking being blind somehow? When he says Matt's name to Nadeem, does he have a plan beyond 'let's ruin his day even more than I already have?' Because getting the FBI to catch Matt for him is pretty smart but, also, does it change his endgame? And did he really think the FBI would be able to catch him?

Hell, I'd have been all for a season 2 style confrontation between Matt in his unmasked lawyer mode, and Fisk. It wouldn't be repetitive, because Matt no longer having to pretend to not be able to fight back would certainly change his approach to the situation. Or, at least, how he'd talk to Fisk.

'Cause when Matt unmasks himself in that final fight, is Fisk looking at him like 'he's actually blind??' and internally having this burning need to understand and dissect everything to do with this unprecedented situation because he does not like new variables in his universe? Secret identity tropes are very rampant in Daredevil (in a good way), and this was one of the most pivotal identity reveal moments in the show. I feel it got short-changed a bit.

Yes, Matt's inability to balance his two sides has been an ongoing journey, and I understand that you feel that it has been going on for too long, but for me it really worked. I needed to see Matt hit rock bottom and be more broken than ever before and then realize the error of his ways. I loved the ending to season 3 where he was together with Foggy and Karen, and they were happy, and I want them to continue with that if there's a season 4. If they would backtrack on Matt's character development in season 4 and again have him trying to go at it alone, I would also be annoyed.

The thing you're suggesting with subplots with Melvin and everything is good, but it doesn't have anything to do with Matt's character arc. If you're gonna take away the character arc he goes through in season 3, you have to replace it with another character arc and not subplots to keep the story going.

True, Fisk didn't really have an "Eureka" moment, and that would have been nice to see. The closest moment was when he manipulated Karen into revealing it just through her facial reaction. I really loved that scene. And to be fair, in Born Again, the comic where Kingpin finds out who Matt is, we don't get to see his reaction either. We actually get more of his reaction in the show. But, in Born Again, we get to see what Fisk does with that information, and we really didn't see that i the show, which was a little bit of a missed opportunity. It could possibly show up later though. I would have loved to see Matt fight Fisk not wearing his costume. It would be similar to the great fight they have in Born Again.

 

[dmcreif]

Yes, Matt's inability to balance his two sides has been an ongoing journey, and I understand that you feel that it has been going on for too long, but for me it really worked. I needed to see Matt hit rock bottom and be more broken than ever before and then realize the error of his ways. I loved the ending to season 3 where he was together with Foggy and Karen, and they were happy, and I want them to continue with that if there's a season 4. If they would backtrack on Matt's character development in season 4 and again have him trying to go at it alone, I would also be annoyed.

I think part of it's a desire that came out of the fact that the last time Matt, Karen and Foggy were all on-camera together was when Reyes died. I wanted more scenes of the characters acting as lawyers, and at least Foggy got to do that in spades. I'm just saying it would be even better if Matt were the one doing it instead of Foggy. I think the show needs to spend a little more time investing in Matt being a lawyer, since we hardly ever see Matt in a court room or doing lawyer things.

Admittedly, more interweaving of Matt's storyline with Karen's and Foggy's stories would've helped all three of them. For example, Karen at the Bulletin should've meant her becoming The New Ben Urich and thus becoming a confidant and ally that Matt turns to for information and help (and in turn she offers him information that he can use), yet Matt only really reaches out to her once for help and that's with tracking down Jasper Evans.

True, Fisk didn't really have an "Eureka" moment, and that would have been nice to see. The closest moment was when he manipulated Karen into revealing it just through her facial reaction. I really loved that scene. And to be fair, in Born Again, the comic where Kingpin finds out who Matt is, we don't get to see his reaction either. We actually get more of his reaction in the show. But, in Born Again, we get to see what Fisk does with that information, and we really didn't see that i the show, which was a little bit of a missed opportunity. It could possibly show up later though. I would have loved to see Matt fight Fisk not wearing his costume. It would be similar to the great fight they have in Born Again.

I think that Nadeem's financial troubles may have been something transferred over from Matt. (That was one thing Fisk did in "Born Again", which was to freeze Matt's bank accounts)

 

[Sundancer]

I was hoping Vanessa would die. I really don't want to see her as a mob boss.

 

[Whatupman]

I think part of it's a desire that came out of the fact that the last time Matt, Karen and Foggy were all on-camera together was when Reyes died. I wanted more scenes of the characters acting as lawyers, and at least Foggy got to do that in spades. I'm just saying it would be even better if Matt were the one doing it instead of Foggy. I think the show needs to spend a little more time investing in Matt being a lawyer, since we hardly ever see Matt in a court room or doing lawyer things.

I would love to see Matt in the court room again if there's a season 4. Charlie Cox is always excellent in those scenes.

I think that Nadeem's financial troubles may have been something transferred over from Matt. (That was one thing Fisk did in "Born Again", which was to freeze Matt's bank accounts)

Oh, right, I didn't even think about that. Good catch! I also loved other things they took from Born Again, like the cab and "There is no corpse.".

 

[halo10]

Only thing that I was initially worried about when Karen saga story episode appearing, right behind a gripping action episode.
I thought it would disrupt the build up momentum, mood of the series.

But Thank goodness it was at least half of the episode, before the DD-Bullseye-Fisk train got right back on course again. (great rap song at her party though)

Yes, she is a heavily strongly supporting character because of her personal relationship with Matt Murdock, and her journalist investigation job involving Wilson Fisk’s crime waves and domination.

She is an essential character because of that. To make it even more interesting, she is also cross-pathing with Frank Castle- Punisher as well.

 

[Sithborg]

My only concern with a season 4 is how to do Bullseye. At this point, he is more of a Kingpin enemy then Daredevil enemy.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

My only concern with a season 4 is how to do Bullseye. At this point, he is more of a Kingpin enemy then Daredevil enemy.

I think that Bullseye sees both as his enemy at this point. And if they want to further a vendetta against Fisk I think it's simple... Bullseye goes after Vanessa. This forces Matt to protect her giving us more clashes with Dex.

 

[athena1541]

I would love to see Matt in the court room again if there's a season 4. Charlie Cox is always excellent in those scenes.

Charlie Cox is excellent. Unfortunately, the writing of the courtroom scenes is not. I was relieved there weren't any in season 3. Maybe, if you're writing a series where two of the main characters are lawyers, you might - oh, I don't know - consult an actual lawyer?

 

[Iceman]

I think that Bullseye sees both as his enemy at this point. And if they want to further a vendetta against Fisk I think it's simple... Bullseye goes after Vanessa. This forces Matt to protect her giving us more clashes with Dex.

Frank wouldn't approve.

 

[dmcreif]

You kinda answered your own question. You say you realize that Matt isolating himself was a big part of his character arc, and yet you want him to finish his character arc by episode 2. That's bad storytelling. In a movie, you don't have the main character finish his character arc in the first ten minutes do you? You can't have Matt finish his character arc and then have Fisk start making moves against him. Then you have season consisting of action but no character development to speak of. The character arc has to go with the action and develop through the whole season. And I think it's silly to say that we have barely seen him being Matt Murdock. We saw him as Matt Murdock in two seasons + The Defenders.

I think what I was trying to say was this: in season 1, Matt was a really friendly and polite guy, and was close with both Foggy and Karen. There was actually a Nelson & Murdock law firm in it. Most of the focus was on Matt. And they way the gang took down Fisk was by taking out each of the crime bosses working under him one at a time, which made for a good framework/structure for the season, as well as a satisfying ending where Matt finally puts on the red suit and truly becomes Daredevil so he can stop Fisk's escape attempt.

In season 3, there are too many different focuses. The show is trying to follow Matt, Karen, Foggy, Fisk, Dex, and Nadeem all at the same time. It makes Matt kinda more of a side character at times. Like, there's episode 5, where he only appears for a few minutes at the very end. And I get the reason for Matt being in the black costume, but I also feel like I miss Matt wearing the red suit. It’s just not the same watching Daredevil when Matt no longer wants to actually be Daredevil. It makes sense why Matt would have a crisis of faith and identity after everything he’s been through, but to be honest...I think they changed his character for the worse.

I feel like if I could rewrite the season, I would have had Matt confront Karen when she arrived at the hotel courtyard, have them talk, then have her push Matt to tell Foggy that he's alive, then the three team up to take on Fisk a bit sooner. Maybe that would've allowed a slightly more tightly focused narrative.

 

[Whatupman]

I feel like if I could rewrite the season, I would have had Matt confront Karen when she arrived at the hotel courtyard, have them talk, then have her push Matt to tell Foggy that he's alive, then the three team up to take on Fisk a bit sooner. Maybe that would've allowed a slightly more tightly focused narrative.

But that leaves us with the problem we discussed previously: You take away Matt's character arc.
To use Born Again for example, would you have Matt and Karen reconcile after five pages in that? Would you give Karen her redemption after five pages? Would that have made Born Again better? Where's the struggle? The problem with doing it that way, is that it robs the characters of their journeys and their character development, and it makes moments feel cheap and unearned.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think it's pretty clear that Matt was very much at the center of season 3 and it was his story of coming through the darkness to emerge reborn as the hero that had it's crescendo with his emotional unmasking to Fisk and declaring his victory without having to cross the line of taking a life, which was al about Matt's internal struggle, and actually not a goal imposed from the outside by Fisk as the villain.

 

[Zyraquis]

I think that Bullseye sees both as his enemy at this point. And if they want to further a vendetta against Fisk I think it's simple... Bullseye goes after Vanessa. This forces Matt to protect her giving us more clashes with Dex.

Meanwhile Vanessa has her own agenda to advance, which may not even include Fisk.

A lot can be done about her background; she might not even have procured that bloody painting in a peaceful and nonviolent way like from a Christie’s auction.

Now she is like: yippee Daredevil won’t put me in jail or hurt me I can do whatever crime I want!! Let’s have drugs, guns, hookers, human trafficking a gogo.

A normal decent girl doesn’t go tell her mob boss boyfriend to bring her in and go: “you are too soft, just put him down” from the get go.

I would be surprised if Fisk hadn’t had a deep background check (at least she is not from a mob busting police family that can’t be scared or bought into submission) and decided she is worthy before approaching her perhaps it was just not shown.

 

[jignat]

Just finished DD S3.
SO good…
The only DD comic story I've read was Born Again. The other Netflix MCU characters were basically blank slates for me.
While it was a loose adaptation, there were a lot of things I loved about it.


Pros:
-Sister Maggie and her sardonic tongue and the “reveal”
Karen’s backstory with her brother
the general feeling of dread when Kingpin was able to manipulate people. That was carried off well from the original story imo
Ray Nadeem. Sniff.
Fight choreography esp the last ep. Props to the choreographers/stuntmen and actors
Donofrio is awesome. He like Killgrave heightens the material.
I liked the backstory/performance of Bullseye.

Cons
The end was a bit odd. I cant believe Matt would trust Kingpin to keep his promise but oh well.
The comic story had Matt be more paranoid and psychotic throughout . While he was disturbed about stuff this season, I didnt feel as if matched the comic intensity.
Overall 9/10

 

[Iceman]

I need to start cosplaying while hoovering too.

 

[Iceman]

I cant believe Matt would trust Kingpin to keep his promise but oh well.

I don't think it's a case of trusting Kingpin (which would be a frankly idiotic thing to do ). It's more that he actually knows how important Vanessa is to him and that keeping her out of trouble is more important to him than his own freedom.

 

[Guard82]

I just recently finished watching Daredevil Season 3 and loved it. It was a very thrilling and compelling season. Matt had a very satisfying character arc, and all of the supporting characters were handled very well. The writers did a splendid job of loosely adapting a number of Daredevil stories, including Born Again, and molding those adapted elements into a new and original storyline.

Charlie Cox once again was magnificent in his portrayal of Matt Murdock and Daredevil, and he deftly portrayed Matt's intense emotions and the spiritual and psychological struggle he was undergoing. Matt's journey was a perfect centerpiece for the season, and all the other plot threads connected to it nicely.

I really liked Karen's role this season, and I appreciated the backstory we got for her. Her storyline was also very compelling and fit well with Matt's journey. Foggy had some very good moments as well, and it was terrific to see Vincent D'Onofrio return full-time as Wilson Fisk. D'Onofrio's acting as Fisk was stellar, and the writers did an excellent job of crafting an extremely elaborate villainous scheme for Fisk to enact this season. It was very exciting and suspenseful. Also, Wilson Bethel was great in the role of Bullseye. They gave Bullseye an interesting backstory and they deftly portrayed his frightening, bloodthirsty insanity.

Sister Maggie was a great addition to the cast of characters, and she had some of the most intriguing and poignant moments during the season. The season as a whole was masterful and highly enjoyable.

 

[Iceman]

It's a real shame to lose the priest but on the plus side hopefully we see more of sister Maggie in any future seasons if they happen.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Hunter Rider]

Definitely my favourite season of any of the Netflix shows, I was engrossed from the first episode until the last, I didn't feel any of the fatigue that often comes with the Netflix shows and I felt excited going into the final episode to see how it all panned out, and what I got was the most satisfying finale of any of the shows to date.

Vincent D'Onofrio is getting all the plaudits and he is magnifcent, his Kingpin is practically on par with Thanos as the MCU's top villain, but I thought Charlie Cox matched him, Matt's tortured journey is what hooked me into this season so strongly, I felt every bit of his conflict, I wanted him to kill Fisk and the primal scream he lets out in the final showdown where he chooses not to let Fisk take his soul was really powerful, as the build to that moment with Fisk being ahead at every turn, the bodies dropped, the lives destroyed by this psychotic monster, it made those punches Daredevil rained down in their fight feel cathartic, and when he grabbed his head to snap his neck I felt he'd be justified, but his choice not to made Daredevil even stronger as a hero.

Deborah Ann Woll was also brilliant, the scene between Karen and Fisk where she told him she killed Wesley was second only to the final scene between Daredevil and Kingpin as the best in the season. I also thought Jay Ali was excellent as Agent Nadeem and his tragic story was another wonderful layer to a season filled with engrossing and emotional character arcs.

Wilson Bethel is a revelation as the yet unnamed Bullseye, this reimagining of the character along with his performance has elevated Bullseye IMO, his introduction was badass and he was disturbing and lethal, there was a menace to him all of the way through, and he was the only one of Fisk's people you felt was as dangerous as him and the uneasy dynamic between the two was fascinating. I really hope he gets a chance to fully become Bullseye in a 4th season.

The story was right up my street, Matt's personal struggles with loss that saw him push his friends away, his past that revealed his mother which played into the great dynamic between Matt and Sister Maggie, and his shaken faith as doing things the right way had not only cost him people he cared about, but it was all for naught as Fisk was out, had me totally invested. Meanwhile Fisk's Machiavellian plotting was incredible and kept the twists coming as he engineered his way back into control and power with his corruption of the FBI and propaganda campaign with the fake Daredevil, move by move he took everyone off the board like a chess master. The conflict between Matt and Foggy over what to do with Karen stuck somewhere inbetween anchored the whole thing on a moral knife edge, asking the question of whether justice was a concept that could really be applied to a man who seems too dangerous to be allowed to live, there can be no true justice or safety while he's still breathing in Matt's mind, and how they found a way around that was brilliant.

On the action front I actually think this was the weakest season, not that the action wasn't good, but it didn't have a real standout sequence like Daredevil vs Nobu in season 1 or the stairwell fight with the bikers in season 2, but the prison infirmary sequence was good and the triple threat finale in Fisks penthouse between him and the two Daredevil's was very good.

The season ended perfectly, Matt, Foggy and Karen back together with Karen now turning her investigative reporting into a kind of P.I. gig, Fisk back behind bars and Dex under the knife, ready to make the full transition, my guess being that when he becomes Bullseye his first act will be to kill Vanessa (she has it coming, rotten to the core) and that will send Fisk spiralling out of control, something we've only seen in a couple of bursts, and it will also void his deal with Matt setting all 3 on a collision course, throw in some Typhoid Mary, perhaps hired by Fisk to hunt Bullseye? and you have all the ingredients for season 4, I just hope we get it.

This season though, if it's the last, is an absolute triumph and would serve as a fitting finale to a very good trilogy.

9.5/10

 

[dmcreif]

But that leaves us with the problem we discussed previously: You take away Matt's character arc.
To use Born Again for example, would you have Matt and Karen reconcile after five pages in that? Would you give Karen her redemption after five pages? Would that have made Born Again better? Where's the struggle? The problem with doing it that way, is that it robs the characters of their journeys and their character development, and it makes moments feel cheap and unearned.

There's a way they could have Matt, Karen and Foggy team up in episode 3 and not rob the characters of their journeys and development. Writers could do that. It'd be a better show if we had 10 episodes of them working together than have them only come together in episode 11.

 

[Whatupman]

There's a way they could have Matt, Karen and Foggy team up in episode 3 and not rob the characters of their journeys and development. Writers could do that. It'd be a better show if we had 10 episodes of them working together than have them only come together in episode 11.

How? How could you possibly still have Matt's character arc, where he goes from shielding himself from his friends because he thinks being Matt Murdock is a mistake to realizing that he was just afraid of being abandoned again and that he needs his friends, if he starts working with his friends in episode 3 of a 13 episode long season? You can't just say writers can do that. No, they can't, because it simply doesn't make sense.

 

[Iceman]

I was hoping Vanessa would die. I really don't want to see her as a mob boss.

She might die in a future season (if we get one) to really make Kingpin do his worst. I liked the sinister side of her. If she did take on that kind of role I don’t think it would be for too long (not over multiple seasons) and would probably end in her death.