Daredevil Daredevil: FULL SEASON TWO Discussion Thread (BEWARE, SPOILERS GALORE!)

[javonstokess]

I think not giving Bullseye his costume undermines the character and brings up bad memories of the movie. I know this show hates costumes for villains, but he really should have one.

As much as I like the Bullseye costume IN THE COMICS, I think it doesn't make sense for his character in general.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I disagree completely. There's an unhinged theatricality in Bullseye that comes from how easy he can kill people. He could kill people with a gun very easily, but he doesn't because it's boring. He also wants to get paid for it and wants to draw attention to himself with that.

His outfit makes no less sense than Daredevil's outfit. It's just that Marvel in general is afraid of villain costumes that are not aliens or technological suits and Marvel Netflix certainly is concerned about showing costumes.

I'm not saying the costume has to be 1:1 translation of the comics costume, but white gloves, a blue or black outfit, and a balaclava with a bullseye on it should be there.

 

[ludovica]

I disagree completely. There's an unhinged theatricality in Bullseye that comes from how easy he can kill people. He could kill people with a gun very easily, but he doesn't because it's boring. He also wants to get paid for it and wants to draw attention to himself with that.

His outfit makes no less sense than Daredevil's outfit. It's just that Marvel in general is afraid of villain costumes that are not aliens or technological suits and Marvel Netflix certainly is concerned about showing costumes.

I'm not saying the costume has to be 1:1 translation of the comics costume, but white gloves, a blue or black outfit, and a balaclava with a bullseye on it should be there.

Word.
DD and BE are both wayward circus performers, a trapezist/daredevil (do'h) and a knife thrower in the end.
They may very well dress for it.

 

[dmcreif]

I really wish they’d shown the rest of Karen’s reaction to Matt revealing his secret. I mean, in season 1, Foggy got an entire episode to deal with the ramifications of learning Matt’s secret. Karen just had a fadeout and the next time we meet them in The Defenders, it’s several months later and they only talk about it in passing.

It stands to note that Charlie Cox and Deborah Ann Woll have said they wish that we’d gotten to see the rest of Karen’s reaction (https://www.cinemablend.com/televis...oment-that-charlie-cox-wishes-had-been-filmed). To quote Charlie Cox from the article:

“In the 6 months since DD ended and this show [The Defenders) begins, there is so much stuff that I would like to have explored. Like I’d love see the conversation between him and Karen. At the end of Season 2 he hands her the mask, and says I’m Daredevil. I’d love to have seen that conversation. And maybe we will. Maybe we’ll see that in a flashback or something, I don’t know.”

It was disappointing, really. Karen is the deuteragonist of Daredevil and she deserved to have the full reveal conversation. Then again, I suppose there just wasn’t a way to reasonably incorporate that scene into The Defenders. But they really should show us the entire reveal conversation in episode 13 from start to finish, of Matt explaining his enhanced senses, what they could do, his training, Stick's departure, how he had first decided to put on the mask and help people who had no other help, his recent behavior, what he’d been doing during Frank’s trial, who the strange people were that Karen had seen in his apartment, and why they were there, the people who had kidnapped Karen and the other hostages, everything he’d done to try and stop them, Elektra's death, etc.

I realize most of it would just be Matt rehashing to Karen things that the audience already knows, but as much as characters may talk about the reveal in passing in The Defenders, it’s not the same as actually seeing it for ourselves. I really hope that maybe season 3 will backtrack a little bit, and show us the rest of the reveal conversation in flashbacks.

 

[TheVileOne]

I'm not too broken up over it. She kept his secret. They didn't get back together. He quit being Daredevil for a while. They reached a mutual understanding.

 

[dmcreif]

I'm not too broken up over it. She kept his secret. They didn't get back together. He quit being Daredevil for a while. They reached a mutual understanding.

I think they're gonna get back together in season 3, given where I think they're going with the story.

Admittedly, this does bring up a big problem with the long gaps between one season and the next, for all these shows: they end the season with things unresolved. Then, they make you wait, sometimes as long as a year or more in real time, before you'll get to see the character again, and the new season always skips ahead over several months of in-show time instead of picking up where the last one left off. This means that we miss out on a lot of good, interesting stuff that must have happened during the gap, which we just never get to see, and it’s frustrating. (Another example of something we missed out on was, what sort of legal chicanery did Foggy do to get Luke Cage out of jail at the start of The Defenders?)

But obviously, seeing the rest of the reveal conversation was never going to be done in The Defenders, because that show revolved around an event that took place over the span of about three or four days, and they had a huge cast of leads and supporting characters to juggle. Not to mention that the writers may have thought doing a reveal scene for Karen would become repetitive and redundant; that it would basically be a rehash of "Nelson v. Murdock" just with Karen in place of Foggy.

All I hope is that maybe, the writers will cover Matt and Karen’s discussions as flashbacks in Daredevil season three. Mention them in The Defenders (check that off), now show what happened once there’s time for it (aka, on Matt’s own series).

 

[dmcreif]

Breaking this up into a second post because of a subject change.

When I finished the second season and The Defenders, I was like, "I miss the season 1 flow. I miss when it was the avocados at law. I miss when Karen had a yearn for journalism and truth. I miss the days of Matt, Karen and Foggy in that office, working cases together. I miss the days when the writing wasn't making everyone act out of character for plot reasons. I miss the days when the show wasn’t overstuffed. And weird. The days when characters’ actions made sense, when outsiders weren’t valued more than insiders, when the show was more focused on telling its own standalone story than setting up for future spinoffs. I just wish things could go back to Matt, Foggy, and Karen." I know we're going back to that time in season 3, but that still is a ways out.

Season 2's main problem is that it was overstuffed. Everything revolving around Elektra/The Hand ultimately feels like it's not fully fleshed out, and that takes up like 70% of Matt's arc. Likewise, Frank overstayed his welcome and should've been written out of the show once he got out of prison. (The Blacksmith part of his arc in Daredevil season 2 should've been relegated to The Punisher season 1 and probably would've made that show a little more tightly paced as a result). At around the halfway point of season 2, it kinda feels like action is just being thrown at you to keep you from checking out. It comes off like "It's cool watching ninjas fighting, here's more ninjas." I can remember more action-oriented moments from the first season compared to the second.

The Hand are also just way too vague and faceless for me to care about them, and it's what Matt is torpedoing his own life over. If there was more foresight for what they were going to do with them in The Defenders, I think it could've been pulled off better but I really wasn't into the Hand at all. There's too much "Uhh...what?" that goes on with them and Elektra for me to get invested. Also, I think all this stuff with Elektra and the Hand made Matt come off as a dumber character by proxy. He seems way too invested into Elektra over the court/Punisher stuff and it makes a lot of the drama in season 2 in the latter half feel contrived and poorly written, whether it's with Matt/Elektra or his drama with Karen and Foggy. It feels like it was done for the sake of creating drama between them. It seems very melodramatic at times.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think they're gonna get back together in season 3, given where I think they're going with the story.

Admittedly, this does bring up a big problem with the long gaps between one season and the next, for all these shows: they end the season with things unresolved. Then, they make you wait, sometimes as long as a year or more in real time, before you'll get to see the character again, and the new season always skips ahead over several months of in-show time instead of picking up where the last one left off. This means that we miss out on a lot of good, interesting stuff that must have happened during the gap, which we just never get to see, and it’s frustrating. (Another example of something we missed out on was, what sort of legal chicanery did Foggy do to get Luke Cage out of jail at the start of The Defenders?)

But obviously, seeing the rest of the reveal conversation was never going to be done in The Defenders, because that show revolved around an event that took place over the span of about three or four days, and they had a huge cast of leads and supporting characters to juggle. Not to mention that the writers may have thought doing a reveal scene for Karen would become repetitive and redundant; that it would basically be a rehash of "Nelson v. Murdock" just with Karen in place of Foggy.

All I hope is that maybe, the writers will cover Matt and Karen’s discussions as flashbacks in Daredevil season three. Mention them in The Defenders (check that off), now show what happened once there’s time for it (aka, on Matt’s own series).

It wasn't legal chicanery. Bobby Fish gave Foggy evidence that was left in Pop's Barbershop that was enough to clear Luke's name. Sort of convenient. But it wasn't a major subplot that needed to be shown onscreen.

I don't care for Karen Page as a journalist either. Getting rid of Urich was short-sighted.

 

[dmcreif]

It wasn't legal chicanery. Bobby Fish gave Foggy evidence that was left in Pop's Barbershop that was enough to clear Luke's name. Sort of convenient. But it wasn't a major subplot that needed to be shown onscreen.

I don't care for Karen Page as a journalist either. Getting rid of Urich was short-sighted.

It was NOT short-sighted. In fact, it was the plan from the get-go. In Steven DeKnight's words: "I’ve been known to kill off a character or two in my past (laughs). I wish I could take credit for this, but killing off Urich was decided before I signed on. I want to say it was Marvel’s idea. They really wanted to show that toward the end of the season because we knew we’d get some sympathy for Fisk (Vincent D’Onofrio), to have him do something truly terrible that would propel Matt into that final endgame in the confrontation with Fisk. And to let the audience know that the gloves were off: just because he was a beloved character in the comics, doesn’t mean he’s safe. It’s one interpretation. It’s like writers doing a new run of the comic. It felt right for the story. Much like episode four where Fisk kills Anatoly, not because he did something to cross him in the criminal world, but because he embarrassed him on a date. Urich gets murdered because he committed the unforgivable sin in Fisk’s mind: he went to Fisk’s mother. The last thing you want to do with Fisk is at all involve, insult, drag through the mud the women in his life he loves. That will be a serious trigger for him."


As for Karen as a journalist, well the job is a good fit for her. It allows her the freedom to have her own plot arcs, and remain fully immersed in the action without being closely tied to Matt. But it is unrealistic that someone without a journalism degree or prior experience in the field would land a job with a major newspaper. That requires a bit of suspension of disbelief.


What I was getting at with the "they should've shown us Karen's reaction", is that with what they are doing with Karen's character, she's just as essential as Foggy. Yet to deny us at least a longer scene of her reaction to his news, downsized her character's importance

 

[TheVileOne]

That's still short-sighted because it hurt the show in the long-term because you could've had Urich getting involved in some of those other major events. Yes, it was short-sighted, whether it was decided early on or not.

Once again, don't like Karen as the investigative journalist replacing Urich. Doesn't work as well.

I don't really see how Karen's importance was downsized. But it's also not her series. The show is Daredevil, not Karen Page. They addressed her knowing his secret in Defenders. That wasn't really a huge lost opportunity compared to other issues throughout the show.

 

[dmcreif]

The thing is, part of me wishes that Karen had found out the truth early on. If she had learned earlier on, maybe Matt and Karen could have developed the kind of easy intimacy together that he has with Elektra. Unfortunately, with the way the season was written, there was no possible way for that to happen. I appreciate the significance of the fact that Matt chooses to tell Karen, but I just don't like that he doesn’t do it until literally the last two minutes of the last episode, and then the scene ends right after he tells her, with no follow-through, no resolution, just "I'm Daredevil, roll credits". I just hate it when shows just end as soon as the action is done, without resolving character issues or addressing fallout. (This isn't just a Daredevil season 2 issue: the same thing exists with the Alias trio by the end of Jessica Jones season 2)

 

[TheVileOne]

That to me was not a problem in Season 2.

 

[dmcreif]

Being denied Karen's reaction is, admittedly, just peanuts compared to say, the main problem of season 2, which is that the season was overstuffed. There was so much story by doing both The Punisher and Elektra/Hand arcs simultaneously (rather than do something like Luke Cage season 1 where they split the season) that both of those stories ended up feeling as if they had no room to breathe.

Season 1 of Daredevil worked out so much better for me because Matt was fighting the same battle against Fisk in both of his lives, but he didn’t realize it until the pieces formed a picture. Similarly, Fisk meeting Vanessa, and how that changed him while jeopardizing his alliances with the Russians and the Hand, all of that was so tightly plotted and balanced.

Season 2, on the other hand, felt like a complete mess between trying to establish Frank, establish Elektra, set up two spinoffs, and continue the stories of the existing characters. Personally, I think Frank overstayed his welcome and should've been written out of the show once he got out of prison (everything that happened to him after he got out of prison should've been moved to his own show and would've greatly improved the pacing there as far as reducing the amount of time Frank and David spend in David's hacker den. The only reason I think he was kept around in DDS2 was just so that Karen had something to do.)

I think Daredevil season 2 gets forgiven for a lot of these flaws because of the volume of shallow action they throw into the mix to keep you from checking out. I can remember so many more action-oriented fights from the first season compared to the second, where it feels like mostly a blur aside from stuff at the beginning and the tail end.

And Daredevil season 2 made the Hand far too vague and faceless for me to care. If there was more foresight for what they were going to do with the Hand in The Defenders, maybe they could've done it better, but I really wasn't into them at all. There was just way too much "Uhh...what?" that goes on with them and Elektra for me to get invested. I particularly didn't like the whole Black Sky thing and how Elektra just seems predisposed to be into killing because...just because? Honestly, the Elektra/Hand stuff in Daredevil season 2 caused Matt to come off like a dumber character by proxy too. A lot of the drama in the back part of season 2, both with Matt/Elektra as well as Matt with Karen and Foggy, feels like it was done to force friction between them. (I'd even go so far as to say that the Elektra/Hand stuff in Daredevil season 2 makes Diamondback in Luke Cage look like a pretty decent villain in comparison)

 

[dmcreif]

I mean, the Punisher and Fisk were way better than Elektra. With the Hand's story line, Daredevil went from being a crime drama to a fantasy-crime-action-ninjas-drama. The whole season was an irritating amalgamation of two completely independent plots. Once Frank comes in, half of it becomes "the Punisher show, starring Matt's supporting cast", and the other half is "Daredevil versus the Hand starring Elektra and Stick."

Seeing as Elektra and the Hand became Matt's main priority from episode 5 onwards, and was the drive behind Matt's arc for The Defenders, I'd say that Daredevil season 2 really should've just been about that issue, and that Karen and Foggy should have been integrated into the Hand storyline. That way, we wouldn't have the sense that what Matt is doing and what Foggy and Karen are doing have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I guess it makes sense that Matt had to burn his bridges with Karen and Foggy, and Nelson & Murdock's breakup was probably inevitable. Yet, instead of Matt's isolation from Karen and Foggy being a plot point, the series tried to jump straight to juggling two tonally different main plots at the same time, and so we got a bunch of narratives that have nothing to do with each other. The Hand arc rode on the coattails of the Punisher's storyline, resulting in the Hand having no decent characterization whatsoever and the Punisher's arc getting a lackluster finish as the Hand took over the show.

In fact, you know what would've made a better story? If Matt had told Karen and Foggy right away about Elektra as soon as she deposited that money in their bank accounts. Because then, knowing what exactly is going on, Karen and Foggy would be more prepared for Matt's absences and would be able to talk Matt out of going on date night fights with ninjas, making the trial less of a disaster.

 

[Hypestyle]

If Bullseye is involved, I don't want him killing Elektra, stay away from that old storyline, please.

 

[Spider-Fan]

They already did that in season 2 with Nobu. It won't happen again, I don't think.

 

[athena1541]

A very good article on what they got right and what they got wrong in People v. Castle: Anatomy of a Scene: The Trial of Frank Castle — Part 1 - Escapist Magazine