Hawkeye Episode 6: So This is Christmas? (Spoiler Discussion)

[pixen]

Ms. Pugh may be short in stature, but she has a very solid, non waifish build. Unlike with her Black Widow predecessor, I don't have to suspend disbelief when I see her knocking the crap out of multiple opponents.

Exactly. I think people confuse mass and size with it making you the best fighter possible. It’s not. Each type of body size/type has their own advantages and Yelena works. She also has such character and charm… something Natasha never did.

The Netflix shows are clearly canon after the last week imo.

Not really. Just because they are the same actors, it doesn’t mean it’s the same universe.

 

[First Avenger]

From what I understand there were some cut scenes of Maya and Fisk, and Matt was supposed to show up but covid probably screwed over that. I guess they will re-purpose all of that in the Echo show.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Not really. Just because they are the same actors, it doesn’t mean it’s the same universe.

But it does make them canon. Whether it is the same universe or not. As to the same universe. We know they lived through the original Avengers movie. That puts them farther into canon then anything else. But alas, people seem determined to argue over something, that obviously does not matter. They are bringing in D'Onofrio to play the same character whether he is technically the same one or not. They didn't hire these actors again to play someone else. To do it differently. They hired them to do what they did on the Netflix shows. It was incredibly apparent after the finale. Why people want to ignore this, I have no idea.

 

[Weather Witch]

I spent the whole song expecting something like the first three. Then it kept going. And I was like "okay, so there's a punchline." And then they cut to a shot of the crowd, pulling back. And I was like "okay, so they're going to show someone in the audience at the end of this camera move." Then it kept going. And going. And just... ended.

That was my experience as well. That said, this show already set up so many character for 'future things' that I didn't mind too much.

 

[P Supreme]

Not sure I will watch the Maya Echo series, story seemed to end with this. The Tracksuits were okay as a side but not interested in them as a whole series and stuff.

Same only way is if they advertise Charlie and Vincent are part of the cast not alluded to no teases but ep1

 

[Boom]

The weakest parts of the show were the half-baked Echo subplot and the Tracksuit mafia in general. It's not a particularly good look for Kingpin when his gang is comprised of a bunch of goofball idiots.

"We went to Maroon 5 instead!"

UGH.

 

[RockSP]

But it does make them canon. Whether it is the same universe or not.

Okay, well from that perspective yes i agree they are canon as in those shows happened as part of the multiverse. Same as the previous Spidey movies, and all their other properties that were at various studios previously. But as for the netflix shows being what happened in the mcu that we've been following all these years, that's what I personally don't want to be the case. I don't want them to be beholden to things that came before they were in control of the characters, and I want them to be able to recast Luke Cage and Iron Fist and (hopefully) do a good job with those characters this time around.

 

[RockSP]

It's not a particularly good look for Kingpin when his gang is comprised of a bunch of goofball idiots.

Kingpin doesn't really have just one particular gang, at least in the comics. He has his fingers in a lot of different pies that aren't necessarily connected. So the TM are just a pie on the menu that tastes like crap lol.

 

[Iceman]

Yup, they nailed the finale. Loved how it was a fun, Christmas-happy ending. Seeing D'Onofrio as Fisk again was a treat, but the show was never about him and he will have plenty of opportunities to show off, starting with the Echo miniseries. Renner and especially Hailee just did a fantastic job through the whole series, not to mention the great addition of Pugh. I really want Kate and Yelena together again, quite a lot actually! If I had to rank the series:
Loki/Wandavision
Hawkeye
What if
Falcon and Winter Soldier

My ranking would be roughly the same. Falcon is a bit frustrating as it would have been much higher if the final episode had been better and they had replaced the flag smashers with anything else.

 

[TheFuture]

The weakest parts of the show were the half-baked Echo subplot and the Tracksuit mafia in general. It's not a particularly good look for Kingpin when his gang is comprised of a bunch of goofball idiots.

"We went to Maroon 5 instead!"

UGH.

Ah I liked the tracksuit mafia, was great seeing Aleks Paunovic get some mainstream exposure.

They were just the type of goons you'd see in any comic of the week.

 

[metaphysician]

I’m confused about Kingpin. Does he have powers? How did he survive getting hit by a car?

You do realize that he's had superhuman strength and durability for, call it half his existence in the comics, right? Its pretty clear the answer is "yes", "see previous question", and an implicit "because the writers decided that Superhuman Kingpin would be more useful in the MCU than Normalhuman Kingpin".

 

[metaphysician]

Tony Dalton has an innate ability at being simultaneously charming and threatening. He's great at playing characters who have a facade of friendliness, but can turn ugly real quick. So him playing a genuine and sincere guy (one who's a bit of a dork, to be honest) was a hell of a switch. That's pretty good casting for a relatively minor role.

You know, I actually hope that in "season 2", whatever form it might take, they bring back Tony to continue a subplot about his relationship with Kate. I mean, sure, the wedding is clearly off, but it'd be interesting to watch him try to get along with the girl who would have been his step-daughter. It would be both awkward and hilarious, especially if she ends up treating Jack as an infuriating crazy "uncle" that nonetheless she gets along with better than her own mom.

 

[Prison Mike]

You do realize that he's had superhuman strength and durability for, call it half his existence in the comics, right? Its pretty clear the answer is "yes", "see previous question", and an implicit "because the writers decided that Superhuman Kingpin would be more useful in the MCU than Normalhuman Kingpin".

No I didn’t realize that, but thanks for your snarky answer.

 

[metaphysician]

I think the burning question we all have now is when Finn Jones as Danny Rand, the unquestioned best Defender and most beloved Marvel Netflix character, is going to make his triumphant return

Shocking reveal: He was an unfortunate victim of Sylvie's "bomb the timeline with random pruning bombs" plan. One of them landed near him, and wham. Erased from existence.

 

[metaphysician]

He's powerful, yes. But not superhuman.

Actually, for about half his history in the comics give or take, he absolutely *has* been superhuman. While he was eventually nerfed pretty heavily, the first half of his existence was as a dude who could pick up a desk, use it as a melee weapon, and break it in half over Spider-man's head, and where peak human types like Daredevil simply could not hurt him ( and in fact, would hurt *themselves* by hitting him! ).

 

[metaphysician]

Kingpin doesn't really have just one particular gang, at least in the comics. He has his fingers in a lot of different pies that aren't necessarily connected. So the TM are just a pie on the menu that tastes like crap lol.

Hey, they may be idiots, but there is virtue in having minions who are both numerous, and stupid enough to be willing to take on superheroes. That said, there is probably a reason he had two of his heavier hitters minding the Tracksuits- some problems can be solved by hordes of disposable muscle, while tougher problems get distracted and worn out by the mooks, then dealt with by Kazi and Maya.

 

[metaphysician]

No I didn’t realize that, but thanks for your snarky answer.

Then here's a less snarky answer: "Kingpin has superhuman strength and toughness for much of his existence, inexplicable yet definite" is a major defining part of the character's history. Its kind of reasonable to expect people know about this, for the same reason its reasonable to expect that people know Rogue typically has flight and superstrength. Its not even a comic-only thing, this showed up in both Into The Spiderverse and the Spider-man video game.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But it does make them canon. Whether it is the same universe or not. As to the same universe. We know they lived through the original Avengers movie. That puts them farther into canon then anything else. But alas, people seem determined to argue over something, that obviously does not matter. They are bringing in D'Onofrio to play the same character whether he is technically the same one or not. They didn't hire these actors again to play someone else. To do it differently. They hired them to do what they did on the Netflix shows. It was incredibly apparent after the finale. Why people want to ignore this, I have no idea.

I also think we are bogged down too much into the cannon argument. In the end, I think it will be vague and the they're variants crowd will see it that way regardless as will the they are cannon people. So I don't see much use getting bent out of shape arguing it. They are cannon to me at this moment in the same universe until proven otherwise.

 

[Prison Mike]

Then here's a less snarky answer: "Kingpin has superhuman strength and toughness for much of his existence, inexplicable yet definite" is a major defining part of the character's history. Its kind of reasonable to expect people know about this, for the same reason its reasonable to expect that people know Rogue typically has flight and superstrength. Its not even a comic-only thing, this showed up in both Into The Spiderverse and the Spider-man video game.

I don’t remember him having superhuman strength on the Netflix show, which is why I asked.

For whatever reason, this genre brings out the inner a**hole in people.

 

[Iceman]

Kingpin doesn't really have just one particular gang, at least in the comics. He has his fingers in a lot of different pies that aren't necessarily connected. So the TM are just a pie on the menu that tastes like crap lol.

Yep. That's why he's the KINGPIN and not lowly level 1 mob boss.

 

[flickchick85]

I also thunk we are bogged down too much into the cannon argument. In the end, I think it will be vague and the they're variants crowd will see it that way regardless as will the they are cannon people. So I don't see much use getting bent out of shape arguing it. They are cannon to me at this moment in the same universe until proven otherwise.

They’ll probably never explicitly acknowledge them as canon but also never contradict them, I’d imagine. Based on that recent quote from D’Onofrio, that sounds like all they can do.

 

[Pennywise]

‘Hawkeye’: How Kate and Eleanor Bishop Go Up Against Kingpin — and Win

“We were getting to the moment of shooting when this idea took hold, we're going to do this,” Thomas explains to Marvel.com. “It's going to be Kingpin; he's going to [be the] end. It's great to see these worlds crossing over, and Vincent was wonderful and cool and everything you want him to be. It was a thrill.”

“He's one of the greatest actors ever, and this is a character that he's already obviously spent a long time with,” Thomas continues. “Once the idea came in that he was going to be in the show, we got on the phone with him and had some long discussions about the character. He was really the source of so much knowledge and understanding…he really helped craft those scenes, even on-set. He's just so specific; every little detail and every moment he understands it and feels it. It's a new iteration to the MCU. It was bizarre, crazy and so exciting when I found out.”

 

[RockSP]

Actually, for about half his history in the comics give or take, he absolutely *has* been superhuman. While he was eventually nerfed pretty heavily, the first half of his existence was as a dude who could pick up a desk, use it as a melee weapon, and break it in half over Spider-man's head, and where peak human types like Daredevil simply could not hurt him ( and in fact, would hurt *themselves* by hitting him! ).

Technically they always say he's peak human, not superhuman even though he's done superhuman things. I remember a Spidey comic from my childhood where he rips a spiral staircase Spidey is clinging to off the wall. Even Spidey makes a remark about his ability to do so, and Fisk gives some comic book b.s. explanation that his rage at Spidey fueled him to do it lol.

I personally prefer the toned down version. But with them going with a superhuman version here, it's silly that his punch didn't knock out Kate. It's not like they had to have him punch her, he could've just tossed her around like he did for the rest of the fight.

 

[WatchProtect]

With what Kingpin is gonna be doing in the MCU I prefer this version we got, I loved what Netflix did with him but that works alot more when his only opponent is Daredevil.

He seemed similar to the PS4 Spider-Man Game which is very promising for the future imo

 

[Spider-Fan]

“I think the Blip has happened, and I think his kingdom took a bit of a hit and he’s trying to get his city back,” Vincent D’Onofrio, who plays the fan-favorite villain, tells TVLine.

The actor also confirms that this version of Fisk is the same we saw in Daredevil. “That’s how I played him, and I think that was the general idea,” D’Onofrio explains. But while he’s the same guy, there were some notable differences. For starters, the Disney+ series established him as Maya’s “uncle” and leader of the Tracksuit Mafia. Plus, his ability to rip the door off a car when confronting Eleanor Bishop painted him as a much stronger man than we saw in Daredevil.

“Obviously, in the show he’s physically stronger and can take more physical abuse. But emotionally, and as far as the history that was discussed, it was done with an eye on connecting as many dots from Daredevil to Hawkeye as possible,” D’Onofrio says. “There are obviously things that we can’t connect — for instance, he’s stronger — but as far as how I played him and the history that I carry myself from and into Hawkeye, he is the same guy.”

So per D'Onofrio, the general idea is he is the same character as Daredevil and he played him that way. Only he is physically stronger now somehow.