Marvel Films MCU X-Men - Part 4

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Just wanted to post this:

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The man above is a brazilian TV host, who used his platform to call LGBT+ "trash", "****" and "a disgraced race". He recently was acquitted of all charges and the court of justice stated that calling LGBTs "disgraced race" is legal.

After so many years, the X-Men continues to be this relevant.

Things like this are why I boiled with rage when deadpool called the xmen a dated civil rights metaphor. Clearly still so relevant and becoming more and more so every day
 
I love juggernaut, it’s a controversial take but I would love it if he was a mutant just so he could come to krakoa. Why not, the rest of the marvel u don’t use him that well other than Spider-Man that one time
 
Okay, this thread has taken a wildly different turn than I expected. I understand MCU takes liberties, but equating that to treatment of X-Men by Fox is dishonest in my view.

Even the good X-Men movies did not *nail* the heart and soul of the X-Men. The team was never the focus, and most of the characters were thinly drawn, interacting as acquantainces or co-workers at best (this is the biggest issue with X1, as much as I love it).

Agreed there was too little camaraderie but X2 was definitely about the team and I would say also an ensemble. The main characters were, I would say, Wolverine, Jean, Magneto, Storm, Nightcrawler and Bobby (plus Stryker). And while too Wolverine-centric I thought the first two films very much got the themes and spirit of the comic.
 
Hiding behind a metaphor is no longer the most useful way to communicate that there is a problem in society.

Too much directness and exactness can be confining to story including changes in story. For example, if Magneto was still Jewish and his similarities to Begin or Netanyahu were much more emphasized, would him being or becoming sympathetic imply approval for Netanyahu, or would a very negative portrayal need to be seen as anti-Zionist? If Magneto was changed to be black, still a Mutant supremacist/separatist, would that generally be interpreted as hostility to black activists, reformers, that they are also actually black supremacists (so he can't be portrayed too much as separatist, supremacist or negatively portrayed)?

There's also some element of non-literalness, non-directness with the fantasy in that dealing with superpowers some powers can actually be very dangerous and harmful to other individuals and society so the debates and dilemmas are also pretty stylized rather than direct exact parallels.
 
While I don't see a full scale X-Men vs. Avengers happening (I would not be surprised if we had one on one battles between an Avenger and an X-Men or small groups of them fighting each other and eventually aligning), I could see the X-Men vs. Thunderbolts/Dark Avengers easily. You can introduce Henry Gyrich in the MCU as a close friend of Thunderbolt Ross in the US Government, except perhaps more militant than Ross when it comes to super powered beings and ordering the Thunderbolts to exterminate all mutants.
 
Okay, this thread has taken a wildly different turn than I expected. I understand MCU takes liberties, but equating that to treatment of X-Men by Fox is dishonest in my view.

Even the good X-Men movies did not *nail* the heart and soul of the X-Men. The team was never the focus, and most of the characters were thinly drawn, interacting as acquantainces or co-workers at best (this is the biggest issue with X1, as much as I love it). There were always many excuses for this but at the end of the day a lot of these characters never got their spotlight.

In the Foxverse Logan was given dimension over the course of multiple films but Cyclops remained a jerk, Storm had a temper, and Jean was dangerous because of Phoenix. I have confidence Marvel can make these characters actually stand out on screen based on their track record.
The heart and "soul" of X-Men is the dramatic question that drives or informs almost all of the dramatic conflict-- can humans and mutants co-exist as a united people, or is a peaceful co-existence impossible? This is what the core thematic premise of X-Men is, and Singer absolutely captured that *core thematic premise*; that defines everything about this franchise, including the characters.

This what Singer was focused on, more than anything else in fact, and it's what made the most sense in 1999. If you're tasked by a studio to make the first ever X-Men film, and present the franchise to the widest audience it's ever been exposed to, and you only get one chance to do this right--

You have to cover everything: from the X-Men (and it's individual members), to the Brotherhood (and it's individual members), to Prof X and Magneto & their conflict, to the mutant experience (Rogue), to the wider defining conflict they have with society who will not accept any of them. You have to cover all of this in the first film, because there's no guarantee of a sequel, of a franchise. And the easiest, most logical way to sweepingly cover ALL of this material, is to zero in on the core thematic tenets of the franchise, and build your movie around that, which is exactly what Singer did, and he did amazingly well.

Wolverine is the main character because he's the most accessible entry point into the film's core conflict: the clashing ideologies of the X-Men and the Brotherhood. And as a result, Wolverine has one of the most satisfying character journeys, not just in the Original Trilogy, or even the Fox franchise, but in the entire CBM genre in itself (I'd say Tony Stark is a close second). Logan is probably one of my favourite films ever made.

And this is why I'm partial to the MCU starting with the original team, as much as some fans hate the idea of that. It's the logical narrative entry point into an X-Men-oriented narrative. If you want the team itself to be the "Wolverine" of the franchise, then you have to put in the work, and take the neccessary developmental steps to make that happen.
 
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I love the first Singer film but it kind of was a missed opportunity to not get to see Cyclops, Jean, Storm first joining/forming the team, to get to see that while still having a reasonable runtime you would probably have to have the first film not also have the Brotherhood, maybe not have Magneto, not focus much on another villain, the villain relatively simple and standard like maybe Juggernaut, I think we will get something like that in a new version.
 
I love X1 but I would hesitate to sell it as nailing the heart and soul of the X-Men.

That just cannot be true when the ensemble of characters and their interpersonal relationships is lacking. It established some things quite well but it wasn't ideal.

The women of the team (Jean, Storm, Rogue) barely interact with each other, and Scott and Wolverine are at odds with each other over their love interest. I will give it credit for showing us Scott as a leader though, something the studio refused to give us again. Still, he is presented as too rigid and standoff-ish, especially from Wolverine's POV, he needed more moments like when he smiled at the kid in the train station and his speech to Xavier. It's not quite enough though. There's a perfect opportunity here for the trinity to actually mentor Rogue, their most recent recruit, in some way, but this doesn't really happen. Storm sorely lacks lines and when she does speak she's usually meek as a mouse, far from the commanding leader-to-be she's supposed to be.

If you focus on what it does give us, of course the rivalry in ideology between Xavier/Erik is strong, the Wolverine/Rogue relationship is moving, and he and Jean have good chemistry. But it leaves the other characters hanging, as I believe Roger Ebert pointed it out way back then (admittedly he wasn't a big fan of this series).
 
I would also have MCU Henry Gyrich also initiate the Sentinel Program on beha
I love X1 but I would hesitate to sell it as nailing the heart and soul of the X-Men.

That just cannot be true when the ensemble of characters and their interpersonal relationships is lacking. It established some things quite well but it wasn't ideal.

The women of the team (Jean, Storm, Rogue) barely interact with each other, and Scott and Wolverine are at odds with each other over their love interest. I will give it credit for showing us Scott as a leader though, something the studio refused to give us again. Still, he is presented as too rigid and standoff-ish, especially from Wolverine's POV, he needed more moments like when he smiled at the kid in the train station and his speech to Xavier. It's not quite enough though. There's a perfect opportunity here for the trinity to actually mentor Rogue, their most recent recruit, in some way, but this doesn't really happen. Storm sorely lacks lines and when she does speak she's usually meek as a mouse, far from the commanding leader-to-be she's supposed to be.

If you focus on what it does give us, of course the rivalry in ideology between Xavier/Erik is strong, the Wolverine/Rogue relationship is moving, and he and Jean have good chemistry. But it leaves the other characters hanging, as I believe Roger Ebert pointed it out way back then (admittedly he wasn't a big fan of this series).

Storm lacked character development in the movies. I think that Storm will be first introduced in a movie and then have her own Disney+ series to flesh out her background. Disney+ has essentially given many heroes origin stories (Monica Rambeau) or movie side characters further exploration of their background (such as Sam's sister Sarah and her family and Wanda's origins as a kid). I don't think she'll be the only X-Men character to have their own Disney+ show, but she'll be one of the first I would think. I believe that Marvel will do Storm correctly.
 
One thing I would really love to see the mcu xmen do is get dated. As in, wear today’s outfits, hairstyles and talk about pop culture like they do in the comics. I always felt like that’s part of what made them so fun
 
One thing I would really love to see the mcu xmen do is get dated. As in, wear today’s outfits, hairstyles and talk about pop culture like they do in the comics. I always felt like that’s part of what made them so fun
WHAAAAAAAAT?!!!!

You DON'T want it to be... TIMELESSSSSSSSSS?!!!

:o
 
I love the first Singer film but it kind of was a missed opportunity to not get to see Cyclops, Jean, Storm first joining/forming the team, to get to see that while still having a reasonable runtime you would probably have to have the first film not also have the Brotherhood, maybe not have Magneto, not focus much on another villain, the villain relatively simple and standard like maybe Juggernaut, I think we will get something like that in a new version.
I wouldn't be surprised if Feige goes back to the X-Men's Silver Age roots, and starts with a villain like Sauron (+ Sinister), just to establish a completely new tone and feel for these films

It could almost be like an inverse of what Fox did-- starting with a darker, more grounded tone and slowly working towards those more fantastical elements. The MCU could do the opposite
I love X1 but I would hesitate to sell it as nailing the heart and soul of the X-Men.

That just cannot be true when the ensemble of characters and their interpersonal relationships is lacking. It established some things quite well but it wasn't ideal.

The women of the team (Jean, Storm, Rogue) barely interact with each other, and Scott and Wolverine are at odds with each other over their love interest. I will give it credit for showing us Scott as a leader though, something the studio refused to give us again. Still, he is presented as too rigid and standoff-ish, especially from Wolverine's POV, he needed more moments like when he smiled at the kid in the train station and his speech to Xavier. It's not quite enough though. There's a perfect opportunity here for the trinity to actually mentor Rogue, their most recent recruit, in some way, but this doesn't really happen. Storm sorely lacks lines and when she does speak she's usually meek as a mouse, far from the commanding leader-to-be she's supposed to be.

If you focus on what it does give us, of course the rivalry in ideology between Xavier/Erik is strong, the Wolverine/Rogue relationship is moving, and he and Jean have good chemistry. But it leaves the other characters hanging, as I believe Roger Ebert pointed it out way back then (admittedly he wasn't a big fan of this series).
I completely agree. These were/are my complaints as well, as a fan. But looking back on it now, I just don't think there was a whooole lot of room for some these things, with how the movie was structured. There are a lot of moving parts in X1 and it's a miracle that the movie works as well as it does.

Would I have liked to seen Cyclops in a bigger role? Absolutely. Would I have expanded on Storm's character? You already know I would. But both of them (and Jean) do serve a purpose in the movie, and that is to a) represent the X-Men's ideology and b) assist Logan's development. I think X2 did a better job with Storm & Jean, and you do get hints that there is a friendship between them. But Singer clearly wasn't interested in Cyclops at all, so he was literally* benched in X2, which was some bullcrap.

But ultimately, these films are centered around Logan's journey as this outsider (audience surrogate) being thrust into this conflict between two (three- X-Men, Brotherhood, and Humanity) warring sides, and I just think it was done sooo well. Logan starts the trilogy as an aimless vagrant who doesn't give a crap about anyone or anything (and that's how he perceives himself, until the Professor & by extension the X-Men, give him purpose and show him there is so much more to who he is, and that there is greatness in his potential as a hero)-- and ends it as the leader of the team. When Logan takes command in X3, it makes you want to cheer, because we've seen this man go through hell & back to earn this position, and this level of respect. It's completely earned, and I buy it.

I also love the emotional journey of Rogue and how realistic it feels; I completely buy the resolution to her arc. Not every story, not every arc, has to have an "ideal" ending. It was a happy ending for her, and that's all that mattered.

The escalating conflict between Bobby and John was also done well and tied perfectly into the wider escalating conflict with humanity, and how it's radicalizing of both sides, forced people to choose what they are fighting for, in this war.

And ofc the brilliant, iconic performances of Sr. Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen.

I know these films weren't perfect but they did a lot right, and imo, captured the "heart" of what made X-Men the franchise it is. But thankfully, there is room for the MCU to capitalize on other aspects, that Fox didn't focus on.
 
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Going off topic but I recently watched TLS on Disney+ and I got to thinking what if Marvel touches on the cure plot again. I think it would make for a great storyline if the X-Men were to get a tv show. It’ll be a great way to introduce new characters (humans and mutants) & the storyline wouldn’t have to compete with a secondary plot.

Also if Magneto were to sit out for awhile in between shows/movies then this would be a great way to bring him back into the fold. I like the idea of Magneto being a reoccurring problem just not in every movie.

Lastly if this were to play out in D+ then we could get a movie focusing the Legacy Virus which would be consequences from the cure. Think Covid-19 with mutants but humans becoming effected too.
 
I am no way a Dark Phoenix stan in fact I hated that movie, but it seems to be deemed the most underrated X-Men film. Like it seems many of those who think it is underrated are not excited for MCU X-Men and miss the Fox X-Men franchise. Is it possible to think that Dark Phoenix is underrated and still be excited for MCU X-Men.
 
Going off topic but I recently watched TLS on Disney+ and I got to thinking what if Marvel touches on the cure plot again. I think it would make for a great storyline if the X-Men were to get a tv show. It’ll be a great way to introduce new characters (humans and mutants) & the storyline wouldn’t have to compete with a secondary plot.

Also if Magneto were to sit out for awhile in between shows/movies then this would be a great way to bring him back into the fold. I like the idea of Magneto being a reoccurring problem just not in every movie.

Lastly if this were to play out in D+ then we could get a movie focusing the Legacy Virus which would be consequences from the cure. Think Covid-19 with mutants but humans becoming effected too.
Disney+, Marvel, Feige et al removed a COVID-19-like plotline from Falcon and the Winter Soldier...
 
Going off topic but I recently watched TLS on Disney+ and I got to thinking what if Marvel touches on the cure plot again. I think it would make for a great storyline if the X-Men were to get a tv show. It’ll be a great way to introduce new characters (humans and mutants) & the storyline wouldn’t have to compete with a secondary plot.

Also if Magneto were to sit out for awhile in between shows/movies then this would be a great way to bring him back into the fold. I like the idea of Magneto being a reoccurring problem just not in every movie.

Lastly if this were to play out in D+ then we could get a movie focusing the Legacy Virus which would be consequences from the cure. Think Covid-19 with mutants but humans becoming effected too.

the legacy virus would be such a bold movie, probably the boldest thing the mcu has ever done. Plus it would be cool to see Stryfe
 
I am no way a Dark Phoenix stan in fact I hated that movie, but it seems to be deemed the most underrated X-Men film. Like it seems many of those who think it is underrated are not excited for MCU X-Men and miss the Fox X-Men franchise. Is it possible to think that Dark Phoenix is underrated and still be excited for MCU X-Men.

IMO Dark Phoenix was a victim of 3 things: expectations, franchise fatigue and post-Endgame languor. I think at that point, people were just tired of these films, and tired of these characters, and tired of this conflict. And coming off of Endgame, some folks were just expecting more from the film than was ever promised. What it ended up being, was what it was made to be: a mostly self-contained character study about Phoenix/Jean, as opposed to this epic, grand conclusion [to the franchise] that many people wanted it be.

A lot of the reasons why the movie failed were external, and of no fault of its own-- it's a decent film with some strong performances. It just came out at the wrong time.

I feel the same way about New Mutants tbh. That film does not deserve a 35% on RT. There's just nothing that abhorrently bad about it-- it's a decent film, with, IMO some pretty strong elements (Like Dani & Rahne). I think like Dark Phoenix, the movie was unfairly trashed.
 
the legacy virus would be such a bold movie, probably the boldest thing the mcu has ever done. Plus it would be cool to see Stryfe
True. Also on a somewhat related note I would hope we get to see the breast cancer storyline for female Thor done really well too.
 
a mostly self-contained character study about Phoenix/Jean, as opposed to this epic, grand conclusion [to the franchise] that many people wanted it be.

I think Dark Phoenix was a lackluster self-contained character study wannabe. Logan was a successful one, not Dark Phoenix.

And I think the biggest mistake there wasn't not making it an epic grand conclusion (which it should've been as well), but it was turning that story into a souless and heartless movie, with no emotional impact whatsoever. That was their biggest crime, IMO.

And it's the smallest things that could have made a huge difference. Take that scene I posted above. You get to see, in less than a minute, the characters reacting to Jean's sacrifice. It makes you feel the emotional impact. We can argue that the X-Men movies always lacked that family aspect, which is true, but here in that scene you at least can feel the connection they have.

And here's another example of how bad Dark Phoenix was. When Turner's Jean says "Emotions make me strong" before sacrificing herself is so cringe because it's a classical example of the "show, don't tell" rule of storytelling. You have to show, don't tell. Show! And that's where X2 wonderfully succeeds. Famke's Jean doesn't have to say that. She doesn't have to say how much she cares for them. That she's doing it for them. It's there. It was shown. No one is saying how devastated they are, how shocked, how sad. It was there, it was shown.
 
I think Dark Phoenix was a lackluster self-contained character study wannabe. Logan was a successful one, not Dark Phoenix.

And I think the biggest mistake there wasn't not making it an epic grand conclusion (which it should've been as well), but it was turning that story into a souless and heartless movie, with no emotional impact whatsoever. That was their biggest crime, IMO.

And it's the smallest things that could have made a huge difference. Take that scene I posted above. You get to see, in less than a minute, the characters reacting to Jean's sacrifice. It makes you feel the emotional impact. We can argue that the X-Men movies always lacked that family aspect, which is true, but here in that scene you at least can feel the connection they have.

And here's another example of how bad Dark Phoenix was. When Turner's Jean says "Emotions make me strong" before sacrificing herself is so cringe because it's a classical example of the "show, don't tell" rule of storytelling. You have to show, don't tell. Show! And that's where X2 wonderfully succeeds. Famke's Jean doesn't have to say that. She doesn't have to say how much she cares for them. That she's doing it for them. It's there. It was shown. No one is saying how devastated they are, how shocked, how sad. It was there, it was shown.
Well, there's no question that X2 is the Infinitely better film. And for one, it actually expands upon the themes, ideas and characters from the first outing, and the film is so much stronger for that-- building on those established elements, and in the investment audiences already have in this world. It's like the perfect sequel.

But Dark Phoenix can't really do that, because the characters and the world are completely different from the last we time saw them. It's been 10 years, and major events in development of character and world, are assumed to have already happened (off-screen)... Because they have to have, it being 10 yrs. But this was a problem that persisted throughout the entire PT-- not just Dark Phoenix. Although you could argue that this film, being the story that it is, suffers the worst from this from this lack of narrative cohesion.

I mean, every film, they essentially soft-rebooted/restarted the narrative, which made it hard for people to get invested. By the time Dark Phoenix came along, people had just lost interest
 
Dark Phoenix was a dumpster fire. An abhorrent script that was just a rewrite of another lackluster movie, phoned in performances and an egregious lack of character development.

Again, thank God those days are over.
 
Dark Phoenix was a dumpster fire. An abhorrent script that was just a rewrite of another lackluster movie, phoned in performances and an egregious lack of character development.

Again, thank God those days are over.
The excuses never end. Kinberg is always blameless. Regardless that this is HIS film. His Production company. His Script. His directorial debut.

But no, the film failed because of external reasons. TBH, it's the audiences' fault for thinking this was going to be epic. LMAO
 
I wish Fox had simply rebooted with First Class instead of the half reboot half prequel mess they made instead. Sure, short term it could produce magic like DOFP, but long term, it made the series a really confusing uninvolving hodgepodge.
 
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