The Amazing Spider-Man 2 The Amazing Spider-Man 2 General Discussion - - - Part 87

[The Joker]

Because it was like a cartoon. Even the movie's SCORE didn't take itself seriously. In addition, those lyrics were embarrassing.

That Spider-Man he is my enemy! I mean come on that's so silly

Suited the tone of the movie; cartoonish and stupid.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

The movie did some serious stuff well, but it certainly had a problem maintaining/shifting tones. People said at the time "TASM2 feels the most like a comic book of any movie I've seen." Now I'd say Civil War did a much better job of balancing a comic book like story and Silver Age feel (airport battle anyone?) with the serious stuff and feels the most like a comic book to me.

 

[PeterBenParker]

I consider TASM2 more comic booky because it feels like a comic book was plastered on screen, going page by page. I felt the tonal shifts worked in its favor but that's just me.

 

[Spider-Ock]

I consider TASM2 more comic booky because it feels like a comic book was plastered on screen, going page by page. I felt the tonal shifts worked in its favor but that's just me.

That's how I chose to think of it as well. It's why I can deal with some of Electro's corny dialogue (the "It's My Birthday...now it's time to light my candles" line seems straight out of a comic book) and it's also why Harry's Goblin disease doesn't bother me.

I also really love some of the slapstick stuff they do with Peter.

On another note: how rewatchable do you think TASM 2 is? I have seen it maybe 10-11 times over the past 3 years but I have rewatched the original trilogy a lot more. Maybe it's because I have gotten older (I don't have time at all nowadays haha) but since TASM 2 goes to some pretty dark places in its final act, I don't have as much of an inclination to rewatch it as say, SM2.

 

[PeterBenParker]

That's how I chose to think of it as well. It's why I can deal with some of Electro's corny dialogue (the "It's My Birthday...now it's time to light my candles" line seems straight out of a comic book) and it's also why Harry's Goblin disease doesn't bother me.

I also really love some of the slapstick stuff they do with Peter.

Exactly. I think the corniness/cheesiness is done well as I do with the darker/serious moments. As I said, felt like a comic book where you have this lighthearted fun moment on a few pages then suddenly turn and everything goes dark.

On another note: how rewatchable do you think TASM 2 is? I have seen it maybe 10-11 times over the past 3 years but I have rewatched the original trilogy a lot more. Maybe it's because I have gotten older (I don't have time at all nowadays haha) but since TASM 2 goes to some pretty dark places in its final act, I don't have as much of an inclination to rewatch it as say, SM2.

I consider it more rewatchable than both TASM and SM. That said, I'd say SM2 is about equal. I love rewatching TASM2 because I know it gets darker and takes itself seriously as the final act approaches so imo it feels earned.

 

[ImOctavius]

Exactly. I think the corniness/cheesiness is done well as I do with the darker/serious moments. As I said, felt like a comic book where you have this lighthearted fun moment on a few pages then suddenly turn and everything goes dark.

Most of Green Goblin's lines in "Spider-Man" are pretty cheesy, but no one seems to remember them.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Most of Green Goblin's lines in "Spider-Man" are pretty cheesy, but no one seems to remember them.

"We'll meet again, Spider-Maaaaaaaan!"

Along with that ENTIRE rooftop scene.

 

[The Joker]

Most of Green Goblin's lines in "Spider-Man" are pretty cheesy, but no one seems to remember them.

That's because they were not cheesy. The only ones he said that were out right cheesy were;

"We'll meet again, Spider-Maaaaaaan!!!"
Singing itsy bitsy spider.
"No one says no to me!!!"

 

[2kt09]

Most of Green Goblin's lines in "Spider-Man" are pretty cheesy, but no one seems to remember them.

It's been over a decade, so I wouldn't expect people to...or they're just not that memorable.

That's because they were not cheesy. The only ones he said that were out right cheesy were;

"We'll meet again, Spider-Maaaaaaan!!!"
Singing itsy bitsy spider.
"No one says no to me!!!"

They were pretty cheesy. Raimi must have done something wrong if his Goblin wasn't shredding cheddar with every other line.

 

[The Joker]

They were pretty cheesy. Raimi must have done something wrong if his Goblin wasn't shredding cheddar with every other line.

Except they weren't. If they were the character is the one what would be shredded for it.

It's been over a decade, so I wouldn't expect people to...or they're just not that memorable.

The cheesy villains in Schumacher's Batman movies were two decades ago, and are still remembered for their awful goofy cheesiness and one liners. If a villain, especially in a notable CBM like Spider-Man, is consistently spouting goofball cheesy lines, it would be remembered. And criticized for it to this day, just like the cornball Schumacher villains. No doubt about it. In fact it would stand out more if it didn't fit with the overall tone of the movie. And Raimi's Spider-Man was not cheesy.

 

[2kt09]

Except they weren't. If they were the character is the one what would be shredded for it.

To the contrary, he would be lauded just as he was.
Again, the tacky dialogue is one of Gobbie's most recognizable traits.

 

[The Joker]

To the contrary, he would be lauded just as he was.
Again, the tacky dialogue is one of Gobbie's most recognizable traits.

According to whom? Your hearsay does not convince of this claim. Show me proof of this consensus if he is lauded for it.

 

[2kt09]

According to whom? Your hearsay does not convince of this claim. Show me proof of this consensus if he is lauded for it.

Is Willem Dafoe's GG not considered one of the greats?

It's also Raimi's best skillset since Army of Darkness, so it was equally amazing to see how well the cheese was executed.

 

[2kt09]

I don't know what your definition of cheese is, but because Raimi can make corny humor work when he actually uses it e.g. some of the slapstick mishaps that happens to Peter, that doesn't mean most of Gobby's dialogue is cheesy.

It's Raimi's trademark style and he proves each & every time why it's harder than it looks to do right. The TASM flicks, this one especially, shouldn't have tried what he excels at without getting the right filmmakers to actually make it work.

You might need a refresher because most of it was. There's some more serious stuff sprinkled in, but by and large Goblin's cheese factor was expressed though those lines.

 

[The Joker]

Thanks for repeating your unsupported hearsay. Still not buying a word of it though. I rewatched the Raimi trilogy a couple of months ago. It's very fresh in my mind. The only valid thing you've said is the TASM movies failed to do the humor well, as this is one of the common criticisms against those movies.

 

[2kt09]

Thanks for repeating your unsupported hearsay. Still not buying a word of it though. I rewatched the Raimi trilogy a couple of months ago. It's very fresh in my mind. The only valid thing you've said is the TASM movies failed to do the humor well, as this is one of the common criticisms against those movies.

*cackle laugh* "Out, am I?"
"I surrender"
"Sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep"
rooftop => nearly every line following his taps on Spidey's shoulder
"like a moth to the flame. What about my generous proposal?"
"this is why only fools are heroes because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice"
"or suffer the little children"
"We are who we choose to be. Now choose."
"It's time to die"
"Misery, misery, misery, that's what you've chosen."
"I'm gonna finish her nice and slow"
"MJ and I, we're gonna have a hell of a time"
"Godspeed Spider-man"

I especially love his well-timed reactions.

These versions of Electro and Rhino are very much of the variety you'd find from that trilogy. They failed to do Raimi's brand of humor, which has always come across as cheesy to me and his direction is what make it worthwhile.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Norman Osborn/Green Goblin is/was a very cheesy character.

Making faces at himself in the mirror, screaming at his Goblin mask while he crawls to it, threatening Aunt May to finish her bible verse as he cackles, telling Spidey he'd "suffer the little children" depending on the choice he made, the entire rooftop exchange (with head-slap included), etc. etc. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it. That was the intention of Sam Raimi and it shows.

Part of the reason why people held (and still hold) the first Spider-Man in such high regard is that it was a very self-aware, fun film that gave audiences their first introduction to Spider-Man on the big screen. Whether it was the corny dialogue between MJ and Peter as he's taking out his trash, Spider-Man saving a baby from a burning building, the entire wrestling bit, the entire Unity Day festival among countless others.

Spider-Man 2 is what people consider the really great Spider-Man film because it took the cheesy, whimsical nature of the first film and added it in carefully with a compelling story with memorable characters.

Spider-Man 3 just didn't know what it wanted to be and it shows.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Rhino was perfect in every sense of the word because of the hammy style Giamatti used. He was having so much fun and that's needed for a character like the Rhino. Some of the best interpretations of the character have him being the dumb brute and that's ultimately what Giamatti gave us.

Electro, while I liked him, would've benefited from being much more serious than what we gotten and I think some of his hokiness came from Jamie Foxx's input into the character. That said, the running gag about his birthday was fun.

 

[The Joker]

*cackle laugh* "Out, am I?"
"I surrender"
"Sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep"
rooftop => nearly every line following his taps on Spidey's shoulder
"like a moth to the flame. What about my generous proposal?"
"this is why only fools are heroes because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice"
"or suffer the little children"
"We are who we choose to be. Now choose."
"It's time to die"
"Misery, misery, misery, that's what you've chosen."
"I'm gonna finish her nice and slow"
"MJ and I, we're gonna have a hell of a time"
"Godspeed Spider-man"

Not a single one of these lines is cheesy.

Norman Osborn/Green Goblin is/was a very cheesy character.

Making faces at himself in the mirror, screaming at his Goblin mask while he crawls to it, threatening Aunt May to finish her bible verse as he cackles, telling Spidey he'd "suffer the little children" depending on the choice he made, the entire rooftop exchange (with head-slap included), etc. etc.

None of that is cheesy either. Your logic here is like saying this Oscar winning psychotic performance by Kathy Bates is cheesy just because she rants and raves like a child, and uses goofy words like cockadoodie;

[YT]IxFa0w8n8iY[/YT]

There's no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Oh yes there is. Tons of them. If there wasn't you'd have posted irrefutable proof to settle this.

That was the intention of Sam Raimi and it shows.

Show me a quote from Raimi where he states it was his intention.

 

[harryoscop]

If you've seen Collateral (The movie with Tom Cruise as a hitman) I think Jamie Foxx's character in that movie-- ironically named Max, is what Max Dillion should have been like in TASM2. A normal guy who always gets the short end of the stick. Mix in some elements from Dane Dehaan's character in Chronicle, dude who is anti-social & hates the world so when he gets the power he lashes out in rage. No cheesy one-liners or "You lied to me!". Electro could have been way scarier that way & more compelling.

The problem with Dillion was that he was unrelatable because of how unhinged & cartoony he was, even before he turned into Electro. He needed to be more normal for ppl to invest in his character. Electro was straight out of the Batman tv show from the 60s. He should have been wayyy more serious.

 

[The Joker]

If you've seen Collateral (The movie with Tom Cruise as a hitman) I think Jamie Foxx's character in that movie-- ironically named Max, is what Max Dillion should have been like in TASM2. A normal guy who always gets the short end of the stick. Mix in some elements from Dane Dehaan's character in Chronicle, dude who is anti-social & hates the world so when he gets the power he lashes out in rage. No cheesy one-liners. Electro could have been way scarier that way & more compelling.

The problem with Dillion was that he was unrelatable because of how unhinged & cartoony he was, even before he turned into Electro. He needed to be more normal for ppl to invest in his character. Electro was straight out of the Batman tv show from the 60s. He should have been wayyy more serious.

Wow. A post from harry I agree with in it's entirety. It feels like pre 2016 again.

 

[2kt09]

Not a single one of these lines is cheesy.

We're at that agree to disagree point if those aren't cheesy, especially if not the lines themselves, then the way those lines were delivered + editing and the surrounding context of those scenes.

None of that is cheesy either. Your logic here is like saying this Oscar winning psychotic performance by Kathy Bates is cheesy just because she rants and raves like a child, and uses goofy words like cockadoodie;

[YT]IxFa0w8n8iY[/YT]

We're not equating cheesy to something obscene.
Sure enough people will find that clip funny (I certainly did) and be even puzzled without experiencing the context on how that won an Oscar.

 

[The Joker]

We're at that agree to disagree point if those aren't cheesy, especially if not the lines themselves, then the way those lines were delivered + editing and the surrounding context of those scenes.

You're right, just agree to disagree, because in no reality are those lines cheesy. Whether you personally found Dafoe's delivery of them cheesy, that's a whole other argument. Not one I care to get into either.

We're not equating cheesy to something obscene.

I know. You've been praising it.

Sure enough people will find that clip funny (I certainly did) and be even puzzled without experiencing the context on how that won an Oscar.

I find it funny, too. Crazy can be funny. But funny and cheesy are apples and oranges. Several times I found Heath Ledger's Joker funny, as did many fans, but nobody would describe that performance as cheesy.

Kathy Bates won an Oscar for that role in the movie Misery because she was so convincing as this obsessed psychotic fan, who holds a writer prisoner in her home and forces him to resurrect her favorite fictional character whom he killed off in one of his novels.

She is so great at being this kooky crazy obsessive psychopath. Brilliant performance. Just like Dafoe was so convincing as this schizo split personally psycho who holds creepy kooky discussions with himself in front of the mirror. Though of course I wouldn't equate Dafoe's performance to the level of brilliance as Kathy Bates' in Misery. But I made the analogy because she so often acts in a kooky funny manner, that is often even child like;

[YT]W9_wmbew1_A[/YT]

She's like Dafoe's Goblin in the sense that her psychotic nature produces kooky and sometimes funny behavior. But it's not cheesy.

 

[2kt09]

I find it funny, too. Crazy can be funny. But funny and cheesy are apples and oranges. Several times I found Heath Ledger's Joker funny, as did many fans, but nobody would describe that performance as cheesy.

That's because overall there's a much greater level of seriousness behind the performance whereas Dafoe's Goblin is definitely more self-aware to where it becomes cheesy. There's a discernible difference between the way Ledger's Joker and Dafoe's Goblin make light of their various situations. Dafoe's would be what people expected from Joker and yet Ledger brought a level of funny that wouldn't come across as cheesy.

Just like Dafoe was so convincing as this schizo split personally psycho who holds creepy kooky discussions with himself in front of the mirror. Though of course I wouldn't equate Dafoe's performance to the level of brilliance as Kathy Bates' in Misery. But I made the analogy because she so often acts in a kooky funny manner, that is often even child like;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_wmbew1_A

She's like Dafoe's Goblin in the sense that her psychotic nature produces kooky and sometimes funny behavior. But it's not cheesy.

This other clip definitely doesn't have what we're talking about.
The Goblin persona shows a level of control as he's intentionally crossing off maniacal villain traits filtered through corny yet still funny exchanges.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

They were pretty cheesy. Raimi must have done something wrong if his Goblin wasn't shredding cheddar with every other line.

Nobody has problems with cheese, nor camp. But when you up the camp to 11 (TIME 2 CHILL...IT'S MUH BIRTHDAY, TIME 2 LIGHT MUH CANDLES) it becomes obnoxious.