Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[Limonade]

People didn't like BvS because Snyder is a creative visionary who's not afraid to bring depth and meaning to his characters.

Seriously go back and watch BvS, it was not a bad film by any means. It was actually very well done. But where it faulters is Snyder's creativity.

The fans don't want a creative adaption with liberties taken when it comes to the Justice League. They want the comics adaption.


The reason Joker succeeded is because yes it took liberties. But it played on a possible mental illness the character may have. You could throw that Joker into the DCEU and I wouldn't bat an eye because it's an origin story.

Logan succeeded because Hugh Jackman had built the character up over year's to a perfect finale. Those scenarios are nothing alike.

I could argue that Wolverine, was enough of a badass character that it didn't need to have Jackman in that role.

However, it was Jackman's swan song for his portrayal.

 

[Limonade]

Same song they've always been singing. No truer now than it was then. But still, it's not like I expect them to go out there saying "yeah, sorry, we made a bad movie." They're proud of the movie they made, and they're allowed to be.

Man. We're all cycling just rehash opinions that we've had since 2016 honestly.

Snyder's movie is old, we're old. I think half of us wants this movie to be over with because nothing will changed. While MCU is chugging along... DC is still stuck in this weird place, stuck in the emo past, until we get a new vision of where it wants to go.

It's just the worse place to be at, imo.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Eh, I think Snyder’s liberties would always be controversial but if BvS hadn’t been chaotic nonesense they would be more widely accepted. Like, his insanely violent Batman would always provoke strong reactions but if he actually had the character arc people project onto him in BvS it would be way more respected.

The character depth is deeply superficial and mostly works when it does because Affleck is very good at looking sad.

 

[mclay18]

People didn't like BvS because Snyder is a creative visionary who's not afraid to bring depth and meaning to his characters.

Seriously go back and watch BvS, it was not a bad film by any means. It was actually very well done. But where it faulters is Snyder's creativity.

I’m honestly torn about BvS. I really do get the criticism and the whole “Martha” joke has been played out, but there are really good scenes and sequences that cry out for a tighter and better narrative. Snyder’s three hour cut fixes some of those problems but the pacing is still a problem.

I wished Snyder took inspiration more from the Bruce Timm/Paul Dini “World’s Finest” than Frank Miller. That managed to pack in action and character development in less than 90 minutes. And the stakes were palpable. You didn’t have to pack in the White Russian subplot or Holly Hunter’s character because it hardly affected the plot. That alone could’ve shaved 15 minutes off the movie.

 

[Sithborg]

Eh, I think Snyder’s liberties would always be controversial but if BvS hadn’t been chaotic nonesense they would be more widely accepted. Like, his insanely violent Batman would always provoke strong reactions but if he actually had the character arc people project onto him in BvS it would be way more respected.

The character depth is deeply superficial and mostly works when it does because Affleck is very good at looking sad.

Let's not forget Terrio's little "let's address internet complaints in the most hamfisted and unnatural way".

 

[Spider-Fan]

Eh, I think Snyder’s liberties would always be controversial but if BvS hadn’t been chaotic nonesense they would be more widely accepted. Like, his insanely violent Batman would always provoke strong reactions but if he actually had the character arc people project onto him in BvS it would be way more respected.

The character depth is deeply superficial and mostly works when it does because Affleck is very good at looking sad.

This statement confuses me a bit. Are you trying to say Batman has no arc in the film? I think Batman's arc in the film is pretty easy to understand and clear, so I don't see what people are falsely projecting onto the film. Not agreeing with how an arc is done doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am not saying you have to like or approve of how Batman is used in the movie. But denying that the arc exists at all is weird to me.

Something not being executed well doesn't mean it wasn't present. All I am saying

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

I get standing by your film but when you've made a film named Batman v Superman and in the end couldn't even create a logical situation to make them fight each other I don't think you should go around blaming others for the reception.

 

[Erzengel]

In hindsight, I don't know what could have been done after Batman v. Superman. What director was going to come in and turn everything around? What director would have wanted to? I feel they were always going to be stuck with Snyder and co.

 

[Detective Conan]

Exclusive: Danny Elfman confirms he's scoring 'Doctor Strange 2'

Elfman and Raimi are reunited everybody! You love to see it! This will be their first superhero movie collaboration together since Spider-Man 2.

 

[Spider-Fan]

In hindsight, I don't know what could have been done after Batman v. Superman. What director was going to come in and turn everything around? What director would have wanted to? I feel they were always going to be stuck with Snyder and co.

I think the best move would have been delay the movie. Get a new creative team, do a page 1 rewrite, and let that director build it from the ground up.

But that said, once they decided not to do that and they just let Zack film the movie, they should have just lived with whatever he did. WB did the worst thing they could have in doing the Whedon reshoots. It actively sabotaged the movie and every bit of news makes them look worse and worse even years after the fact. One can argue that by choosing to keep Snyder at all it doomed the movie. I don't disagree at all. But waiting until he already shot a movie and spent like 200 mil of your money and THEN replacing him and forcing another 100 mil investment to salvage it made it much, much worse.

I don't think Zack's movie would have done what they wanted, either. I know hindsight is 20/20, but do we think Zack's movie wouldn't have at least matched what the movie ended up making? I think it would have. Also, it at least would have saved them future headaches and all the money they had to eat to pay for the massive reshoots. Massive reshoots on that scale in damage control mode rarely "save" movies. Instead of this becoming one of the biggest clown shows in the history of cinema, it would have just been another superhero film. WB has let this movie linger by giving it this air of mystery and allowing Snyder to become a martyr to some. Entirely their fault. They created the mess.

 

[Mandon Knight]

B v S is not garbage. #hilltodieon

 

[Bayne]

B v S is not garbage. #hilltodieon

Why are you standing on top of the local dump?

 

[Mandon Knight]

Why are you standing on top of the local dump?

I'll stand on my own if I must.

 

[Erzengel]

I think the best move would have been delay the movie. Get a new creative team, do a page 1 rewrite, and let that director build it from the ground up.

But that said, once they decided not to do that and they just let Zack film the movie, they should have just lived with whatever he did. WB did the worst thing they could have in doing the Whedon reshoots. It actively sabotaged the movie and every bit of news makes them look worse and worse even years after the fact. One can argue that by choosing to keep Snyder at all it doomed the movie. I don't disagree at all. But waiting until he already shot a movie and spent like 200 mil of your money and THEN replacing him and forcing another 100 mil investment to salvage it made it much, much worse.

I don't think Zack's movie would have done what they wanted, either. I know hindsight is 20/20, but do we think Zack's movie wouldn't have at least matched what the movie ended up making? I think it would have. Also, it at least would have saved them future headaches and all the money they had to eat to pay for the massive reshoots. Massive reshoots on that scale in damage control mode rarely "save" movies. Instead of this becoming one of the biggest clown shows in the history of cinema, it would have just been another superhero film. WB has let this movie linger by giving it this air of mystery and allowing Snyder to become a martyr to some. Entirely their fault. They created the mess.

I think the issue is you still are stuck with the MOS-BvS previous movies. You are essentially handcuffed to the storylines they set up which I feel would limit any director brought in even with a clear slate.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think the issue is you still are stuck with the MOS-BvS previous movies. You are essentially handcuffed to the storylines they set up which I feel would limit any director brought in even with a clear slate.

To a degree, but it is certainly not a deal breaker. You don't think Joss Whedon wasnt handcuffed by 5 solo films and a script by Zak Penn before signing on for The Avengers? One could argue the MCU directors face that same challenge, only difference being those were more popular. The Justice League were only ever going to assemble for the 1st time once. They needed to get the right voice to make the best movie possible. Not hedge their bets on a guy they were debating on firing already, and then filming a whole new movie essentially once he stepped down. Patty Jenkins showed this could have worked. She was stuck with Gal and the Snyder stuff before she was hired, and everyone loved her movie and it was a massive hit.

Was JL going to be the Avengers rival they wanted? Maybe not, but the path WB chose to go down in the wake of BvS was the worst and most self-destructive path they could have chosen.

 

[Erzengel]

To a degree, but it is certainly not a deal breaker. You don't think Joss Whedon wasnt handcuffed by 5 solo films and a script by Zak Penn before signing on for The Avengers? One could argue the MCU directors face that same challenge, only difference being those were more popular. The Justice League were only ever going to assemble for the 1st time once. They needed to get the right voice to make the best movie possible. Not hedge their bets on a guy they were debating on firing already, and then filming a whole new movie essentially once he stepped down. Patty Jenkins showed this could have worked. She was stuck with Gal and the Snyder stuff before she was hired, and everyone loved her movie and it was a massive hit.

I understand however, even Whedon was given 6 active Avengers. Not like okay one of them is dead, we have to resurrect them and let's work off of that. Even Jenkins had to deal with WW primarily in the past, she hasn't really done anything post BvS events.

But I get it, it's not out of the realm of possibility that a director could have done something else and maybe it would have turned it around.

Was JL going to be the Avengers rival they wanted? Maybe not, but the path WB chose to go down in the wake of BvS was the worst and most self-destructive path they could have chosen.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I understand however, even Whedon was given 6 active Avengers. Not like okay one of them is dead, we have to resurrect them and let's work off of that. Even Jenkins had to deal with WW primarily in the past, she hasn't really done anything post BvS events.

But I get it, it's not out of the realm of possibility that a director could have done something else and maybe it would have turned it around.

On the dead Superman front, yes that is a challenge, but the Death of Superman also was handled in comics and inspiration on how it was handled there could have been used by whoever would have come on board to get around it. Not saying the challenge would have been easy, but even going back to Avengers, Thor was trapped on Asgard at the movie's end when the bifrost was smashed. I was wondering how they were going to get around that, and Whedon's simple solution of handling it in 1 line of dialogue kept the movie focused and it wasn't a problem. Another director maybe could have found a seemless solution like that. What WB ended up doing was anything but.

 

[Zarex]

I think the best move would have been delay the movie. Get a new creative team, do a page 1 rewrite, and let that director build it from the ground up.

But that said, once they decided not to do that and they just let Zack film the movie, they should have just lived with whatever he did. WB did the worst thing they could have in doing the Whedon reshoots. It actively sabotaged the movie and every bit of news makes them look worse and worse even years after the fact. One can argue that by choosing to keep Snyder at all it doomed the movie. I don't disagree at all. But waiting until he already shot a movie and spent like 200 mil of your money and THEN replacing him and forcing another 100 mil investment to salvage it made it much, much worse.

I don't think Zack's movie would have done what they wanted, either. I know hindsight is 20/20, but do we think Zack's movie wouldn't have at least matched what the movie ended up making? I think it would have. Also, it at least would have saved them future headaches and all the money they had to eat to pay for the massive reshoots. Massive reshoots on that scale in damage control mode rarely "save" movies. Instead of this becoming one of the biggest clown shows in the history of cinema, it would have just been another superhero film. WB has let this movie linger by giving it this air of mystery and allowing Snyder to become a martyr to some. Entirely their fault. They created the mess.

I remember many folks posting that it was OBVIOUS Justice League would be delayed after the disappointing reception to BvS. And Snyder fans crowing when behind the scene costume reveals showed WB was plowing ahead despite the fan reaction.

If pre-buyout bonuses weren't the main concern, the best move would have been to "The Suicide Squad" it with most of the same cast, a new creative team that didn't include the guy who did the last two Super Hero All Star Team films, and only light continuity with the Snyder films. Though I can understand AT&T's reasons for funding ZSJL, one big problem is that it puts WB further away from putting the next JL film on the big screen. We could be looking at another five years or more, and that's potentially a lot of money left on the table.

 

[Detective Conan]

LETS GO.

 

[mclay18]

I think the best move would have been delay the movie. Get a new creative team, do a page 1 rewrite, and let that director build it from the ground up.

That's what should've happened. They should've halted pre-production, kicked Snyder and Terrio off, and brought in Whedon to rework the whole thing from scratch. (And Whedon should've known better than antagonize and piss off actors who loved working with Snyder.)

It's like what I mentioned with BvS... some good scenes and sequences (almost entirely due to Whedon). I wanted to see a full Whedon JL, not a Snyder/Whedon mash-up rushed to make a release date.

I am not sold on the JL Snyder cut after that trailer. The reviews need to be excellent otherwise.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That's what should've happened. They should've halted pre-production, kicked Snyder and Terrio off, and brought in Whedon to rework the whole thing from scratch. (And Whedon should've known better than antagonize and piss off actors who loved working with Snyder.)

It's like what I mentioned with BvS... some good scenes and sequences (almost entirely due to Whedon). I wanted to see a full Whedon JL, not a Snyder/Whedon mash-up rushed to make a release date.

I am not sold on the JL Snyder cut after that trailer. The reviews need to be excellent otherwise.

I am not even saying it had to be Whedon making the movie. Though I think had Whedon been able to do his own thing, it would have been much better than what we got. But in the end, someone needed to take it over and make their own film. From the ground up.

 

[Kev4000]

Renner works out again


Potential spoiler who will join the cast (for a guest appereance?)

Spoiler

 

[Ninjablade]

I'm a little disappointed Elfman will be scoring Multiverse of Madness. I liked Giacchino's work a lot (I hope they keep the theme at the very least for continuity), but also I don't think Elfman's big budget scores have been that good in a long while. There are parts of his last two superhero scores (JL and AOU) I liked, but on the whole they were very meh. I wonder who will reach scoring 10 superhero movies first. Him or Zimmer.

 

[Detective Conan]

Would be cool if Zack worked with Warners animation to do an animated DCEU prequel that centers around this very event with Ben Affleck and Jared Leto returning to reprise their roles.

 

[fan4stic]

This statement confuses me a bit. Are you trying to say Batman has no arc in the film? I think Batman's arc in the film is pretty easy to understand and clear, so I don't see what people are falsely projecting onto the film. Not agreeing with how an arc is done doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am not saying you have to like or approve of how Batman is used in the movie. But denying that the arc exists at all is weird to me.

Something not being executed well doesn't mean it wasn't present. All I am saying

Maybe not nonexistent, but I think Bruce's arc is mostly truncated to the last part of the movie. As is, I think the movie barely gives a structure of what Bruce's character arc is. then, at the end, they spring the Martha thing on us and he's had a character arc then.

Bruce is already going after the kryptonite. I think the movie never develops that his reason for doing this is different than what it will be for sure.