Discussion: The REPUBLICAN Party - - - - Part 19

[fan4stic]

Modern american conservatism is, when its all boiled down, one singular concept: Selfishness. That's why so many of them are huge fans of Ayn Rand.Even issues like racism come down to the need to prove yourself better than other people without actually having to work at self-improvement.

And the worst part about it is that they claim to be the "moral majority". This philosophy could not be more of a polar opposite to Jesus' teaching, it's honestly straight up heresy. They rant and rave against "the culture", when they themselves have become inundated with cultural trends of selfish individualism.

It's like the Bible says: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Ayn Rand as far as I understand (lol) it talks about how morality is based on perception of your own, yes? Which is very contrary to godliness, the only truth.

 

[Hypestyle]

A career Republican offers observations on the current state of the GOP under Donald Trump's rise and ongoing trends for the past 20 years-

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...can-dont-recognize-my-party-column/778075002/

excerpt:

Gone off the rails
So what happened to spending when the Republicans took over Congress? The “Contract” called for a balanced budget. But they spent more. The only difference was that they gave money to affluent people who didn’t need it, instead of some who did.

Now Republicans have budgeted massive deficits and adding more than a trillion dollars to the national debt. The new budget and tax bill is probably the worst economic mistake since deregulating the banks. That fiasco — embraced by both parties — caused the recession. This one may be worse; but the rich will still get richer.

Real Republicans were for free trade. Even Democrats became free traders when they entered the White House and understood the issues.

Now we have a president who understands trade as well as he understands economics, which is not at all. He has created an international crisis while pretending to solve a nonproblem, maintaining that he wants to "bring back jobs," at a time when we have the lowest unemployment rate in modern history. Among the first casualties are Harley Davidson workers in Wisconsin. And farmers.

 

[Sithborg]

So, Rand Paul announced a trip to Russia. I'm not sure now is such a great time for such a trip.

 

[MaceB]

At this point, no Republican can be trusted with Russian meetings. How do we know that Putin doesn't have Krompomat on Rand Paul? If he did, then the GOP and the President would be covering for him. So.... they're all suspect at this point. No more official trips to Russia.. sorry.

 

[Schlosser85]

If the GOP is the "patriotic" party, it's long past time to try actually acting like it.

 

[Jenocide]

Modern american conservatism is, when its all boiled down, one singular concept: Selfishness. That's why so many of them are huge fans of Ayn Rand.

Which never made sense to me given that she was anti-war, pro gay rights (despite personal feelings), pro choice, and anti-religion.



It always seemed to me she was more libertarian than a true conservative. Not sure how she ended up the conservative poster child.

 

[MaceB]

Which never made sense to me given that she was anti-war, pro gay rights (despite personal feelings), pro choice, and anti-religion.



It always seemed to me she was more libertarian than a true conservative. Not sure how she ended up the conservative poster child.

Libertarianism sounds appealing from afar, but they are the right wing of the conservative base. So, it actually makes a lot of sense. Libertarians are so conservative, that they'd prefer the government do nothing at all, outside of the courts and international affairs. No more government regulated water, roads, schools, or the like. They are extreme. Like Captain Wagner said, it all comes down to selfishness. The new conservative motto should be "screw you - got mine."

 

[Sithborg]

Libertarianism is the mask extremists hide behind.

 

[wiegeabo]

Libertarianism sounds appealing from afar, but they are the right wing of the conservative base. So, it actually makes a lot of sense. Libertarians are so conservative, that they'd prefer the government do nothing at all, outside of the courts and international affairs. No more government regulated water, roads, schools, or the like. They are extreme. Like Captain Wagner said, it all comes down to selfishness. The new conservative motto should be "screw you - got mine."

Yeah, that's not accurate at all.

 

[MaceB]

Yeah, that's not accurate at all.

Libertarianism is definitely one of those topics where two people can have two very different definitions. How I was brought up with it is like this.

Libertarianism: an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.

"Right-wing libertarianism refers to libertarian political philosophies that advocate negative rights, natural law and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.[85] Right-libertarians strongly support private property rights and defend market distribution of natural resources and private property.[86]" Wikipedia

Libertarians are strong proponents of negative rights - the right to be left alone. The Government's obligation is to abstain from interfering with one's individual freedoms or liberties. It doesn't emphasize positive rights though - like the right to an appointed attorney, a speedy trial, or regulated utilities like roads, food and drug regulations, anti-discrimination regulations, etc.

Many self proclaimed Libertarians such as Rand Paul are against any use of force... it's an extremist position by it's very nature. So when Rand Paul is asked if he agrees with the Civil Rights Act, he has to admit that no - he doesn't. He doesn't believe in the government's ability to use force or to regulate behavior. instead it's all up to the market. He would argue that if people don't like restaurants that discriminate against gay people.. then those restaurants will cease to exist. Just let the market course correct on it's own and abstain from impinging the business owner's right to trade and operate as he or she sees fit.

The movement, as it is today, takes large parts from Ayn Rand's Objectivism, which purports that self-interest is moral while altruism is immoral. Rand constantly pushes a false choice between pure capitalism and pure socialism, and to her - taxation is theft. That means no roads, no classrooms, no food and drug administration, no research and development, etc. etc. etc. Survival of the fittest is the only moral choice, she would say.

I'll give you that Libertarianism is very diverse today though. It's historical context doesn't matter so much, because folks take on and off Libertarianism like it's a coat. "I'm a Libertarian because I don't believe police have the right to force our compliance.. but no, that doesn't mean I'm cool with companies putting methamphetamines in our water... psh, you don't get it."

How I've learned it:

Libertarians - against government interference on social and economic issues.
Conservatives - For government interference on social issues but against government interference on economic issues.
Liberal - For government interference on economic issues but against government interference on social issues.
Authoritarian - For government interference on social and economic issues.

 

[redhawk23]

Libertarianism is definitely one of those topics where two people can have two very different definitions. How I was brought up with it is like this.

Libertarianism: an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.

"Right-wing libertarianism refers to libertarian political philosophies that advocate negative rights, natural law and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.[85] Right-libertarians strongly support private property rights and defend market distribution of natural resources and private property.[86]" Wikipedia

Libertarians are strong proponents of negative rights - the right to be left alone. The Government's obligation is to abstain from interfering with one's individual freedoms or liberties. It doesn't emphasize positive rights though - like the right to an appointed attorney, a speedy trial, or regulated utilities like roads, food and drug regulations, anti-discrimination regulations, etc.

Many self proclaimed Libertarians such as Rand Paul are against any use of force... it's an extremist position by it's very nature. So when Rand Paul is asked if he agrees with the Civil Rights Act, he has to admit that no - he doesn't. He doesn't believe in the government's ability to use force or to regulate behavior. instead it's all up to the market. He would argue that if people don't like restaurants that discriminate against gay people.. then those restaurants will cease to exist. Just let the market course correct on it's own and abstain from impinging the business owner's right to trade and operate as he or she sees fit.

The movement, as it is today, takes large parts from Ayn Rand's Objectivism, which purports that self-interest is moral while altruism is immoral. Rand constantly pushes a false choice between pure capitalism and pure socialism, and to her - taxation is theft. That means no roads, no classrooms, no food and drug administration, no research and development, etc. etc. etc. Survival of the fittest is the only moral choice, she would say.

I'll give you that Libertarianism is very diverse today though. It's historical context doesn't matter so much, because folks take on and off Libertarianism like it's a coat. "I'm a Libertarian because I don't believe police have the right to force our compliance.. but no, that doesn't mean I'm cool with companies putting methamphetamines in our water... psh, you don't get it."

Here's how the chart breaks out:

Libertarians - against government interference on social and economic issues.
Republicans - For government interference on social issues but against government interference on economic issues.
Democrats - For government interference on economic issues but against government interference on social issues.
Communist - For government interference on social and economic issues.

Democrats leverage government power in all kinds of social issue fronts. That summation is pretty far off.

 

[Matt Mortem]

Libertarianism is to the right what Communism is to the left. It's for idiot college kids. On paper sounds like it works, but in practice it does not.

 

[Aximili86]

Yeah, pretty much. 90% of people grow out of both "no guv'ment!" libertarianism and "all the government!" socialism by the time they're like 25. Those who don't, can't do much about 'em, but at least they're inconsequential for the most part.

As for the "they're the hardcore of the convervative" (libertarians), it's kind of a yes and a no. They actually tend to have more in common on the left with at least a segment of the social issues, they tend to be pro-choice, pro-marriage-equality, pro-drug-legalization, the works. But they have the other side too, the whole "get outta my business, G-man, I don't wanna pay no stinkin' taxes, yee-haw" side too. They're sort of both.

 

[SV Fan]

Libertarianism is to the right what Communism is to the left. It's for idiot college kids. On paper sounds like it works, but in practice it does not.

I disagree to an extent int he sense that the extreme outcome of libertarianism would be anarchy, not sure I would view the extreme outcome of conservatism to be anarchy

 

[Aximili86]

Conservatism, or Communism?

 

[MaceB]

Democrats leverage government power in all kinds of social issue fronts. That summation is pretty far off.

These things are on a spectrum and neither Democrats nor Republicans are on the wings of that spectrum. Libertarianism and Communism are on the extremes though. That's my point.

And yeah, they're are exceptions, but by and large, Democrats are in favor of a stronger Government that can regulate the markets and tax the public, while less in favor of the Government regulating one's social behaviors. Dems believe in Keynesian economics, in levying taxes on large corporations, and providing government services like Social Security, Medicaid, Unemployment, etc - Democrats enacted the New Deal for example. Meanwhile, Dems are against the government regulating a woman's right to choose, against government spying, against the government endorsement of religion, against the regulation of people's sex lives, against the drug war, etc.

I see what you mean though... Dems are in favor of gun control, in favor of anti-discrimination measures, etc. I'd just consider that being a good person personally, as opposed to many Libertarians I think, who would say... "can't feed your kids tonight? Tough luck, it's not the government's job to hand out entitlements to the needy. You have no right to take MY money to help YOUR family." That's selfish IMO.

 

[DeadPresident]

Anyone who classifies themselves as a libertarian is trying to find a polite veneer to dress up the idea that they want to be able to behave however they like without fear of consequences. It's the natural destination of the entire libertarian ideology.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

The Daily Beast - Russia’s Plan to Buy Off the GOP Began Before the Rise of Trump

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russias-plan-to-buy-off-the-gop-began-before-the-rise-of-trump

 

[Sithborg]

So a Republican just made a bill to tax carbon emissions. Carlos Curbelo, from Florida.

There may be some hope for the party.

 

[Sithborg]

So, apparently when you are embroiled in accusations of knowing and ignoring sexual abuse of athletes is a good time to try and take the Speaker of the House position.

 

[Sithborg]

So, what do two Republicans who are fighting among each other over who slobbers on Trump's dick the most, do when Trump endorses one over the other.

I swear to god, these primary ads are worse than ever, at least on the Republican side.

 

[Sithborg]

I am fairly certain some GOP people are having some heart attacks watching this Ohio special election. It is flipping a ton in the final hours.

 

[Teelie]

It's too close to call but it hasn't stopped Trump from declaring victory. And even if Balderson wins it is by the slimmest of margins which is not good for what the Republicans were hoping would be an easy and clear victory.

 

[Sithborg]

And now Rep. Chris Collins has just been arrested by the FBI for wire and securities fraud.

 

[Sithborg]

Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) has been indicted for using campaign funds for personal expenses. Boy, of all days for this to happen, today is it. Get lost in the shuffle.