Episode 1: Glorious Purpose (Spoiler Discussion)

[MaceB]

This is going to be a big one so bare with me peeps..
If a series of events must occur through a selection of people, then by that very definition, if those events unfolded as they were meant too, then there's no choice - it's already been chosen for them, thus the role of hero and villain has already been selected by an author if you will..

Not really. There's a difference between a third party knowing what choices you'll make, and you actually making those choices. Many movies and philosophies have played with this very idea. The Oracle told Neo, "you've already made the choice... now, you're here to understand that choice."

Ironically, This is honestly fairly accurate to real life. The idea that you are making your choices every day, instead of the programming you've received as a child is... in itself... up for debate. Most people are running on their programs, whether they like to believe it or not. They don't know why they choose plastic instead of paper... why they max out their credit cards, etc. A lot of that stuff is emotional and not really chosen. This story and basically all religion is basically a metaphor for exactly this; the idea that much of our lives are pre-destined through our subconscious actions. The Diests came up with their own explanation.... the scientoligists... etc. Most civilizations come up with an explanation for this very idea.

It's kind of silly to argue that you have the definitive answer to this question. If it's confusing or seeming like a paradox, that's because it is. But take it up with every origin story that exists, basically.

 

[NHawk19]

I do wonder given that they've introduced a main timeline, multiverses, and variants etc. if we'll see them numbered like 616, 1610, or if 199999 will officially be referenced as that's the movie timeline.

 

[Fosterson]

I don't think this will be the case. We already know there was and will be a multiverse in meta-time, so even in the past there was freedom of choice (as evidenced by timelines such as Zombie Cap and Peggy Cap and the Hydra Stomper armor from What If...? being created at earlier points in time). Right now we know nothing about the Time-Keepers in the MCU except for what their own organization has told us. This will almost certainly not be the (whole) truth. This will probably be based in part on the "If Asgard Should Perish" and/or "Avengers Forever" stories.

But What If...? isn't going to be canon, is it? I had always thought the scenarios presented in it were purely hypothetical ones, not genuine possible alternatives to the canon.

I don't think that makes it meaningless. It has always been the case that the stones exist in multiple realities in both comics and the MCU, and in the comics it is the case that they don't function outside of reality, so this just seems like how this would normally go.

Turning the Stones into a gag removes all weight from the events of IW/EG. It makes Thanos look like a complete idiot for spending his whole life searching for them when they were just in some dude's desk the whole time.

 

[NHawk19]

Turning the Stones into a gag removes all weight from the events of IW/EG. It makes Thanos look like a complete idiot for spending his whole life searching for them when they were just in some dude's desk the whole time.

Not really. Remember the Ancient one said the stones protect reality. It just may be that they've also in other timelines as they stated been the source of several Nexus events. They can still damage that reality but they may not function the same at the TVA or in a different reality. What this really does is raise the stakes and show there are even more powerful objects out there.

This just means Thanos didn't know about the timekeepers or the TVA.

 

[Time Captain]

I loved this episode. Easily a 5/5 perfection.

From Hiddleston/Wilson's performances, to the character exploration dialogue.. this is genre TV that doesn't talk down to it's audience. All the emotional beats worked.

As a pilot, it really laid the groundwork for several seasons of LOKI and the TVA.

I personally really enjoyed that it clarified a lot of our questions about the time travel mechanics in Endgame and the implications.

Now it's basically confirmed that Steve/Cap was Peggy's husband all along in the MCU/Sacred Timeline and didn't create a new branch timeline.

That's some cool pre-destination paradox stuff Marcus and McFeely were right.

Turning the Stones into a gag removes all weight from the events of IW/EG. It makes Thanos look like a complete idiot for spending his whole life searching for them when they were just in some dude's desk the whole time.

You're thinking too 2-dimensionally, my friend.

Those aren't the Stones of the Sacred Timeline that actually matter. They are Variants, from failed/deleted time branches.

They are basically useless. I loved the scene because it showed how small Loki, Thanos and their ambitions were in the grand scheme of the universe and spacetime. The look on Loki's face upon that realization was quite the paradigm shift.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Exactly. We have no idea whatsoever why they consider this timeline to be “sacred”.
And again, Thanos wiped out half the universe for 5 years. There was probably a version of the story were Thor “aimed for the head” and saved a lot of people a lot of suffering. And yet here we are.
So yeah, i bet those three space lizards dont choose this timeline because “the good guys always win! Yay!”

I think the idea that evil Loki (who burns time cops alive) is some kind of hero fighting corrupt time keepers is more ridiculous than the idea that time keepers pick the best timeline to protect above the rest.

Even the Watcher intervenes for the greater good when things are looking really bad.

 

[Time Captain]

I do wonder given that they've introduced a main timeline, multiverses, and variants etc. if we'll see them numbered like 616, 1610, or if 199999 will officially be referenced as that's the movie timeline.

I wonder if "What If" will be the stories of Variant timelines that the TVA eliminated when they created the one MCU timeline.

Honestly, you can't think about this timeline stuff too much. It's like wondering why the Eternals didn't fight to stop Thanos. I'm sure they'll give some hand-wavy excuse to address it, but it won't really make sense if you think about it too much. Just enjoy the ride and the character performances.

Of every expansive franchise out there, I'd say the MCU timeline is the most coherent and makes the most logical sense.

The way Miss Minutes explained the Multiverse concept was super accessible and streamlined for general audiences, that was quite impressive. Feige is really good at taking convoluted concepts and simplifying them for the masses.

As far as Steve Rodgers, I think he was meant to go back and live his life with Peggy. I know they really never showed Peggy's husband in pictures and I thought it was because they didn't have an actor in mind yet so it was for later casting. It could have been that they wanted Steve to always have been her husband retroactively in Endgame. I don't know waiting the rest of this series and on Dr Strange movie to open up the multiverse and explain things further.

This was the best way to go with Steve. Pre-destination paradox.

If he selfishly created a new variant timeline, it would have undermined the whole point of him going back to cut the branch timelines off.

Steve lived through all the events of the MCU from the 1950s onwards and didn't alter anything. If he altered the events, it would have rendered Tony's sacrifice as meaningless.

Steve being Peg's husband in the MCU timeline all along is such a fitting end for the character.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

But What If...? isn't going to be canon, is it? I had always thought the scenarios presented in it were purely hypothetical ones, not genuine possible alternatives to the canon.

They haven't said explicitly but I think it might be because leaked promotional materials show

Spoiler

the main characters of the different episodes will form the "Guardians of the Multiverse". They might even appear in Doctor Strange 2, since one of them is an alternate Dr. Strange and several others are versions of popular characters who are gone from the main timeline like Black Widow, Killmonger and Peggy Carter

Turning the Stones into a gag removes all weight from the events of IW/EG. It makes Thanos look like a complete idiot for spending his whole life searching for them when they were just in some dude's desk the whole time.

1. These are not the same stones Thanos was searching for.
2. Just because they don't function outside of the universe doesn't diminish what they are. Just because a gun doesn't work underwater doesn't mean it's not a dangerous tool when used on land.

I think the idea that evil Loki (who burns time cops alive) is some kind of hero fighting corrupt time keepers is more ridiculous than the idea that time keepers pick the best timeline to protect above the rest.

Does it have to be defined in terms of heroes and villains? If the timekeepers want to control the timeline and this version of Loki doesn't want to have others control what they can and can't do, isn't that enough? Neither has to be a hero for them to be in conflict. There are plenty of corrupt police forces on earth, but that doesn't make everyone who fights against the police there a hero.

 

[Fosterson]

I loved the scene because it showed how small Loki, Thanos and their ambitions were in the grand scheme of the universe and spacetime. The look on Loki's face upon that realization was quite the paradigm shift.

And I'm supposed to like this?

Imagine if it was revealed that the course of the entire Star Wars universe had been dictated by three faceless cosmic entities and Darth Vader got stranded in their reality and discovered that these people had multiple Death Stars just lying around and they turned it into a cheap gag?

 

[Flash525]

Not really. There's a difference between a third party knowing what choices you'll make, and you actually making those choices. Many movies and philosophies have played with this very idea. The Oracle told Neo, "you've already made the choice... now, you're here to understand that choice."

Ironically, This is honestly fairly accurate to real life. The idea that you are making your choices every day, instead of the programming you've received as a child is... in itself... up for debate. Most people are running on their programs, whether they like to believe it or not. They don't know why they choose plastic instead of paper... why they max out their credit cards, etc. A lot of that stuff is emotional and not really chosen. This story and basically all religion is basically a metaphor for exactly this; the idea that much of our lives are pre-destined through our subconscious actions. The Diests came up with their own explanation.... the scientoligists... etc. Most civilizations come up with an explanation for this very idea.

Not quite the same thing, although I appreciate the analogy.

I'd agree; we do have an element of programming within ourselves due to the environment and circumstances of our upbringing, and that's a hard bit of coding to crack and/or change, but here, we're talking about a literal plan as something that has already been decided, rather than something that'll likely take place because of who/what the subject is.

Think on fate or destiny; if such a thing is real (I don't believe it is) but if it is, then somewhere, somehow, something has already decided that an event will take place in order for our destiny to be fulfilled. That would be hard coded into the fabric of the universe. We'd have no control over that as it was always going to happen.

What you're talking about with the programming is our learning, rather than our simply following an already predetermined path. Maybe someone/thing did write existence out in some format, and I was always supposed to type the words I believe in free will and my life is my own - ultimately we'll never know, but they are two very different concepts. One gives us an element of choice within existing programming and/or confinements. The other gives us nothing, except we think it does because we simply aren't aware that we don't have free will.

 

[Time Captain]

And I'm supposed to like this?

Imagine if it was revealed that the course of the entire Star Wars universe had been dictated by three faceless cosmic entities and Darth Vader got stranded in their reality and discovered that these people had multiple Death Stars just lying around and they turned it into a cheap gag?

You still haven't really grasped the concept. Those aren't the Infinity Stones that matter. They are Copies. Variants. From failed timelines that no longer exist. Therefore they serve no purpose. The scene did a great job showing that.

The stones from the MCU timeline that Thanos and friends fought over, conversely, do matter.

Also, be patient in regards to the Time Keepers. There's obviously more to the story, to come.

 

[Flash525]

Okay but why do these authors have authority? And given that variants can go against the author's wishes and the fact that we know there was and will be a multiverse (What If?, Spider-Man: No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, etc.) means that there certainly is more than a single way things can go because they are 'meant to'.

Ah, but that's the million dollar question. Why indeed.

We are told that there is a clear path that must be followed. The mere fact that there are variants, as you've rightly said, is proof that the plan isn't so much as one road, but a road that can be deviated from. Someone (or something) however is determining what deviations can take place, and which ones can't.

What criteria make them 'out of place' though? Sure, they arrived there through timetravel, but we already know the timekeepers believe timetravel can be part of the plan. It's already established that they want things like the Avengers getting stones from the past to happen so why could they not want Gamora from the past to be there? As far as we know the timekeepers only care about things happening as they think they should, timetravel accounted for. I feel like this response presumes that the "proper flow of time" or "Sacred Timeline" means "No interference through timetravel or bringing things to another time", but that doesn't seem to be what the Time Keepers actually care about from what we've seen so far.

Maybe out of place was the wrong choice of words on my part; it's awfully convenient though that Infinity War and Endgame happened in the way they did (as did Gamora) because we're implied to believe in the notion that the time keepers planned for this? Tad over convenient, don't you think?

One Loki dies, a Loki variant is nearly erased.
One Gamora dies, a Gamora variant is allowed a free pass.

Loki was imprisoned at the end of Avengers, but was freed during the The Dark World. These events are part of the sacred timeline. However the timeline branched during Guardians of the Galaxy when Thanos, Nebula, and Gamora discover time travelling Nebula. From this point on there is a branch of time where Thanos no longer exists. This branch can't be pruned by Steve Rogers bringing the stones back, because the sacred timeline requires that Thanos jump into the future for Endgame. Hence a branch that is part of the sacred timeline(s) where Loki is not killed by Thanos.

That's just the thing though, we don't know which timeline exists as it should, surely?

Thanos came forward from one, one that presumably he was (conveniently) supposed to have done. Loki was also freed in Dark World, yeah, but he then went on to fake his death and rule Asgard after tricking Odin before Thor sussed him out. That would've all still happened.

 

[Time Captain]

Not quite the same thing, although I appreciate the analogy.

I'd agree; we do have an element of programming within ourselves due to the environment and circumstances of our upbringing, and that's a hard bit of coding to crack and/or change, but here, we're talking about a literal plan as something that has already been decided, rather than something that'll likely take place because of who/what the subject is.

Think on fate or destiny; if such a thing is real (I don't believe it is) but if it is, then somewhere, somehow, something has already decided that an event will take place in order for our destiny to be fulfilled. That would be hard coded into the fabric of the universe. We'd have no control over that as it was always going to happen.

What you're talking about with the programming is our learning, rather than our simply following an already predetermined path. Maybe someone/thing did write existence out in some format, and I was always supposed to type the words I believe in free will and my life is my own - ultimately we'll never know, but they are two very different concepts. One gives us an element of choice within existing programming and/or confinements. The other gives us nothing, except we think it does because we simply aren't aware that we don't have free will.

The fact that this show is even yielding such discussions of free will VS determinism is a WIN in and of itself.

Is "free will" simply an illusion one believes that they have from their own limited individual mortal perspective, or is there a greater cosmic plan that mortals are unaware of?

Do beings that exist outside linear time dictate the flow of events, or simply perceive them in a non-linear fashion?

Reminds me of the 'Prophets' on Star Trek Deep Space Nine.

Lots of potentially intriguing ground to cover with this series.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Maybe out of place was the wrong choice of words on my part; it's awfully convenient though that Infinity War and Endgame happened in the way they did (as did Gamora) because we're implied to believe in the notion that the time keepers planned for this? Tad over convenient, don't you think?

I mean, we don't know how 'common' variants really are. Given that the TVA presumably has infinite time to deal with them as they exist outside of time the volume of variants at the TVA at one point doesn't tell us much. Did the time keepers plan for it? Or do they perhaps originate from later in the sacred timeline where it already happened and are they just pruning anything that diverges from their own history? Perhaps they can't control how the bonsai tree of time grows, but they can cut branches and groom it so that it ends up in the shape they know it will have to be.

 

[MaceB]

Not quite the same thing, although I appreciate the analogy.

I'd agree; we do have an element of programming within ourselves due to the environment and circumstances of our upbringing, and that's a hard bit of coding to crack and/or change, but here, we're talking about a literal plan as something that has already been decided, rather than something that'll likely take place because of who/what the subject is.

Think on fate or destiny; if such a thing is real (I don't believe it is) but if it is, then somewhere, somehow, something has already decided that an event will take place in order for our destiny to be fulfilled. That would be hard coded into the fabric of the universe. We'd have no control over that as it was always going to happen.

What you're talking about with the programming is our learning, rather than our simply following an already predetermined path. Maybe someone/thing did write existence out in some format, and I was always supposed to type the words I believe in free will and my life is my own - ultimately we'll never know, but they are two very different concepts. One gives us an element of choice within existing programming and/or confinements. The other gives us nothing, except we think it does because we simply aren't aware that we don't have free will.

And that literal plan would be "God's plan" in this world. Loki's story is not analogizing anything that Christians don't think in mass right now. In fact... that something like 70% of the world believes right now.

In Christianity as well as in Loki, this thought about predetermination is a metaphor (not the same... but analogous to) for how so many of our actions seem to be habitual and predictable. Just like the Homer's Odyssey isn't the same as a man searching for meaning in his middle age... but it's analogous to it... it speaks to the same feelings, and it aims to teach us something about ourselves.

Also, we're not talking about these three time keepers "deciding" how things end up. For all we know, they chose one time strand because it was the only good option, and now they are sticking to that one, regardless of how what happens. The Diests had this same exact thought, that God created the clock...wound it, and let it go naturally from there. It's nothing new.

Again, you can ignore it away, but I'm going to give you the same answer: there's a difference between knowing what will happen and actually doing the thing. Many many many stories and fiction and even religions have played with this very concept. It's not new at all.

Basically, it sounds like you have a gripe with modern religion, and since you see this as analogous, you have a problem with this too. But have some humility. You don't need to agree with Marvel. All you have to do is adopt this as a modern trope in fiction for a reason. you call it lazy, but it's honestly more iconic.... this story is bound to be told, over and over and over again. The philosophical dilemma of predetermination is nothing new....not by a long shot... but it IS timeless. I'm sorry you have a personal issue with those kind of stories, but they exist for a reason, (to be a metaphor for our own lives) and time has shown that they can be insightful, entertaining, etc.

Like.... this isn't about your philosophical beliefs. If Marvel came out with a higher power that demonstrated a striking similarity to Brahman... I might be like... "gee, I don't agree with that, because clearly there needs to be a sacrifice for our sins ala Jesus." but that wouldn't stop me from accepting Marvel's right to make it's own storyline, and that I can still enjoy a story even though I share philosophical differences with it.

 

[Closerframe]

Absolutely loved the first episode! Compared to the ongoing mystery of WandaVision and the Jack Ryan-esque feel of The Falcon and the Winter Solider, this is the first show that looks cinematic and an organic next step in the MCU. There's just so much to unpack and seeing the seeds being planted for not only future seasons of Loki but what the consequences of this show will mean for future phases is so exciting!

I didn't think Feige could top Thanos as a threat, but seeing how this show is treating the infinity stones and predetermination, it looks like Kang is potentially going to be treated as a huge threat instead of a one note villain like Ultron.

Some of my theories:

• Loki will try to get a better understanding of how the TVA works with plans to eventually overthrow the Time Keepers so he can rule over all universes. This actually leads to chaos which creates the multiverses we'll likely see in No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, and Quantumania
• Hooded Loki is Lady Loki. Mobius says in the church scene that they're still looking for this "guy" and he's convinced it's a male Loki from another timeline/universe
• The "Multiverse War" hasn't happened yet and actually takes place in the future but because time doesn't operate in a straight line, what we're leading up to is the war we'll eventually see leading to a singular universe
• Not that this will happen in this season, but this is how they can explain where the X-Men have been

 

[Flash525]

The fact that this show is even yielding such discussions of free will VS determinism is a WIN in and of itself.

Is "free will" simply an illusion one believes that they have from their own limited individual mortal perspective, or is there a greater cosmic plan that mortals are unaware of?

Do beings that exist outside linear time dictate the flow of events, or simply perceive them in a non-linear fashion?

Reminds me of the 'Prophets' on Star Trek Deep Space Nine.

Lots of potentially intriguing ground to cover with this series.

What would be more intriguing, or rather, what I'm more intrigued to find out; if this is very much the theme of the MCU from here on out (I doubt it is, I don't think the TVA or timelords have as much control over the flow of time and the events of it as it's being made out) but lets say they do - does a variant outside of that plan then have free will, or are they following an old path that has otherwise been written out.

#hypotheticaldiscussion

I mean, we don't know how 'common' variants really are. Given that the TVA presumably has infinite time to deal with them as they exist outside of time the volume of variants at the TVA at one point doesn't tell us much. Did the time keepers plan for it? Or do they perhaps originate from later in the sacred timeline where it already happened and are they just pruning anything that diverges from their own history? Perhaps they can't control how the bonsai tree of time grows, but they can cut branches and groom it so that it ends up in the shape they know it will have to be.

This would be another hiccup if we think too much into it; the TVA exists outside of time, so they'd potentially have all the time in the ... world(?) to fix the timeline. If a squad of time cops are killed at 8:52pm, send another team at 8:42pm and another at 09:02pm to apprehend the criminal.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

This would be another hiccup if we think too much into it; the TVA exists outside of time, so they'd potentially have all the time in the ... world(?) to fix the timeline. If a squad of time cops are killed at 8:52pm, send another team at 8:42pm and another at 09:02pm to apprehend the criminal.

There would have to be some kind of "meta-time" regardless. Like you can say "there used to be many timelines but now after a multiversal war there is only the sacred timeline". But then wat does "used to be", "now", "after", etc. mean since we're speaking about entire timelines. There has to be some way how relative changes in the landscape of timelines can be described.

 

[Time Captain]

What would be more intriguing, or rather, what I'm more intrigued to find out; if this is very much the theme of the MCU from here on out (I doubt it is, I don't think the TVA or timelords have as much control over the flow of time and the events of it as it's being made out) but lets say they do - does a variant outside of that plan then have free will, or are they following an old path that has otherwise been written out.

#hypotheticaldiscussion

Yup, it will be a critical theme.

Given what's coming..

 

[C. Lee]

A reminder to everyone......DO NOT POST VIDEOS WITH UNCENSORED CURSING IN THEM.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Does it have to be defined in terms of heroes and villains? If the timekeepers want to control the timeline and this version of Loki doesn't want to have others control what they can and can't do, isn't that enough? Neither has to be a hero for them to be in conflict. There are plenty of corrupt police forces on earth, but that doesn't make everyone who fights against the police there a hero.

Hmm it reminds me of Thor Ragnarok where you have an evil villain (Hela) rebel against a corrupt system (Asgard).

But that was more of a sins of the father type thing and the Asgardians are still sympathetic.

I think if you throw in an anti-hero like Loki and the narrative gets too messy.

But I digress because it may have worked elsewhere. I just can't think of any examples.

 

[Fosterson]

Hmm it reminds me of Thor Ragnarok where you have an evil villain (Hela) rebel against a corrupt system (Asgard).

Modern Asgard wasn't corrupt though, since Odin gave up being a conqueror milennia ago. And we saw in the first Thor movie that they actually stopped other war-mongering despots like Laufey from taking over Earth.

And in fact, Hela's whole schtick was returning Asgard to being a colonial empire again.

 

[cabel]

Really good start. The leads do more than to carry what is essentially a well executed exposition dump.

As for the discussions about fate, etc., when it comes to existential time travel shenanigans, I’ve learned to just roll with it.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Really good start. The leads do more than to carry what is essentially a well executed exposition dump.

As for the discussions about fate, etc., when it comes to existential time travel shenanigans, I’ve learned to just roll with it.

"You mean Back to the Future was a bunch of bull****?"

- Ant-Man

 

[Dr. Evil]

"You mean Back to the Future was a bunch of bull****?"

- Ant-Man

I see that franchise being inspiration for this show, especially the second film, when 2015 older Biff Tannen takes the sports almanac to 1955 Biff leading to an alternate 1985, leading to Marty and Doc having to go back to 1955.