Episode 1: Glorious Purpose (Spoiler Discussion)

[SirStrangefolk]

Time travel didn't take AOS out of canon. They travelled to the future in Season 5 remember, and then specifically returned to their own time...supposedly in the MCU, when Thanos was attacking.

And then Season 6 happened, and the Snap never happened. The show no longer lined up with the MCU. The reason apparently being Kevin Feige kept Loeb and the AOS showrunners out of the loop regarding his MCU plans. Feige likely realized he was gaining control of MarvelTV, so all the Loeb shows would soon be non-canon anyway.

Sure, the real reason the snap didn't happen is behind the scenes stuff about how Marvel Studios and Marvel TV grew apart.

But as to season 5, yes they traveled to the future and then they traveled back. However, the traveling to the future and back happened many times and the events that happened after they traveled back weren't always the same (for example in an earlier timeline Quake destroyed earth and in a later timeline she didn't). Since they came back before Thanos' appearance in New York, that was before Strange looked at the possible futures while on Titan. This means that the differences in what happens with SHIELD (and the confederacy, Graviton, etc.) could've created vastly different timelines (one where Quake and Graviton break the earth, one where Thanos fails, etc.). It's not that hard to justify this if you want to.

 

[metaphysician]

I'm just watching it now so maybe this will get answered, but I'm really curious why Steve Rogers isn't also considered a time variant.

We will have to see, but I think my universal answer to any such odd question boils down to a simple one:

"The TVA lies".

Which is to say, I am 100% certain that the TVA, as an organization, is significantly less trustworthy than Loki, and that goes double for anything shown or claimed within their not-subtle-at-all self serving propaganda.

 

[metaphysician]

It's Steve Rogers, with the ****ed-up ending he got, the MCU better not touch that subject.
Avengers would already do what they did, this is explained in IW by Dr. Strange. So maybe Steve coming back was supposed to happen, which makes his ending even more ****ed up. But maybe Tony was right in the end, Steve is a selfish liar.

Yes, how dare Steve actually receive a happy ending, especially after spending most of his career fixing up Tony Stark's screwups and failures. *rollseyes*

 

[Zarex]

We will have to see, but I think my universal answer to any such odd question boils down to a simple one:

"The TVA lies".

Which is to say, I am 100% certain that the TVA, as an organization, is significantly less trustworthy than Loki, and that goes double for anything shown or claimed within their not-subtle-at-all self serving propaganda.

My thinking is the worker bees are on the up and up - Mobius, Casey, the Hunters. But I have my doubts about Judge Renslayer. Do these supposed Space Lizards even exist? Or are they the Great and Powerful Oz types in this story, and she is the one actually calling the shots?

 

[Time Captain]

Sure, the real reason the snap didn't happen is behind the scenes stuff about how Marvel Studios and Marvel TV grew apart.

But as to season 5, yes they traveled to the future and then they traveled back. However, the traveling to the future and back happened many times and the events that happened after they traveled back weren't always the same (for example in an earlier timeline Quake destroyed earth and in a later timeline she didn't). Since they came back before Thanos' appearance in New York, that was before Strange looked at the possible futures while on Titan. This means that the differences in what happens with SHIELD (and the confederacy, Graviton, etc.) could've created vastly different timelines (one where Quake and Graviton break the earth, one where Thanos fails, etc.). It's not that hard to justify this if you want to.

That wouldn't really make sense. Because if they ended up coming back to an entirely new timeline/reality, there should be alternate versions of them already in that timeline.. and our Agents would be Variants who aren't supposed to be in that reality.

Decanonizing the series was probably the easiest way to make sense of that mess.

But I have my doubts about Judge Renslayer.

She's gotta be a villain (not a spoiler, just my guess). If you look her up in the comics and who she's actually romantically connected to...there may be a bigger plan here to bring back the Multiverse and overthrow the Time Keepers, and I suspect she's involved.

 

[metaphysician]

It must be surreal watching yourself die. Imagine having access to all these tapes of your life, including the knock on consequences or benefits of things you did that you didn’t even know about (like what happened to Frigga). It would be hard to resist watching a bunch of your bad moments and also how it all ended for you (hopefully you’d still be alive by the end of the file).

Being fair, I doubt that anyone who *isn't* part of the TVA normally has the chance to see these kind of life tapes. They don't exactly allow visitors normally, and the TVA members themselves. . . okay, obviously, this is my interpretation based on current data. But *if* the tech works for them ( it probably doesn't, because they spend most of their time at the TVA which is outside of time and has different laws of reality ), it probably doesn't have the same impact on them, since the TVA employees strike me as about as human as Loki is. Which is to say, fundamentally they *aren't* human. People, yes, but people who have a radically different mindset, since they are created by and for a specific purpose.

 

[Dr. Evil]

I liked how the archival footage wasn't forced in there.

 

[metaphysician]

My thinking is the worker bees are on the up and up - Mobius, Casey, the Hunters. But I have my doubts about Judge Renslayer. Do these supposed Space Lizards even exist? Or are they the Great and Powerful Oz types in this story, and she is the one actually calling the shots?

Oh, sure, I would believe that the average TVA employee is sincere, albeit. . . basically, the carefully crafted and brainwashed cogs of an elaborate system. I suspect that the Time Keepers in some form do actually exist. While the true nature and goals of the TVA are dubious, they definitely do *actually* exist, and they actually do have great power, like "our own pocket dimension with its own physical laws" and "agents with tech that can fight Asgardians". No reason to assume that the "Time Keepers" aren't real, too, off somewhere giving orders.

I doubt that Judge Renslayer is secretly one of them. It seems a somewhat questionable grunt work job for a supposed master-of-all-time. I could maybe see Moebius secretly being one of them, by contrast, if you assume that the "Use a Loki to hunt a Loki" plan is a major concern.

 

[Jewel Runner]

Yes, how dare Steve actually receive a happy ending, especially after spending most of his career fixing up Tony Stark's screwups and failures. *rollseyes*

So like AoU was the majority Cap's career?
Because that the one and only time you could say that.

 

[Murdock103]

I’m looking forwards to the Marvel ‘What If?’ Series where every episode is 90 seconds long and ends with the TVA turning up and saying ‘No, this isn’t right, erase the timeline.’

 

[SirStrangefolk]

That wouldn't really make sense. Because if they ended up coming back to an entirely new timeline/reality, there should be alternate versions of them already in that timeline.. and our Agents would be Variants who aren't supposed to be in that reality.

I disagree. They don't come back to a new timeline/reality with alternate versions of them (well except for Fitz since indeed his past self still existed in the timeline they came back to). They come back to a timeline where they're still absent from being sent to the future, but the actions they take after returning to the present are different depending on what they experienced in the future. This allows Daisy to inject herself with Centipede and shoot Graviton/Talbot into space in the final timeline we see, whereas in many previous timelines she destroyed the earth (leading to the Kree colony future they saw before). These changes could also allow ripples through their interaction with the Confederation that could influence what happens with Thanos.

As for the agents being Variants. Yes, the change in what Daisy does after returning to the present fits the exact description of a Variant given by Miss Minutes, so she very much would be. Then why wasn't the timeline wiped by the TVA? For the same reason both the "countless unique timelines" before the "great multiversal war" could exist as well as how the timelines from What If?, Multiverse of Madness, etc. will exist. We know the TVA doesn't always and forever purge divergent timelines because they didn't before the multiversal war and they won't in order for the future MCU projects to happen. Thus the AoS timeline can happen without interference.

 

[Time Captain]

I disagree. They don't come back to a new timeline/reality with alternate versions of them (well except for Fitz since indeed his past self still existed in the timeline they came back to). They come back to a timeline where they're still absent from being sent to the future, but the actions they take after returning to the present are different depending on what they experienced in the future. This allows Daisy to inject herself with Centipede and shoot Graviton/Talbot into space in the final timeline we see, whereas in many previous timelines she destroyed the earth (leading to the Kree colony future they saw before). These changes could also allow ripples through their interaction with the Confederation that could influence what happens with Thanos.

As for the agents being Variants. Yes, the change in what Daisy does after returning to the present fits the exact description of a Variant given by Miss Minutes, so she very much would be. Then why wasn't the timeline wiped by the TVA? For the same reason both the "countless unique timelines" before the "great multiversal war" could exist as well as how the timelines from What If?, Multiverse of Madness, etc. will exist. We know the TVA doesn't always and forever purge divergent timelines because they didn't before the multiversal war and they won't in order for the future MCU projects to happen. Thus the AoS timeline can happen without interference.

That's really convoluted.

Considering there's just one MCU timeline in play now, and AOS doesn't fit with it; no snap on AOS. It's simply easier just to decanonize AOS, assuming it was ever MCU canon at all. As opposed to jumping through so many hoops to justify a mediocre TV series with mixed reception... that's more or less forgotten by this point. The "Marvel Legacy" branding for AOS on Disney Plus is an indication about where Feige and friends officially place the series.

That being said, if the 'Multiverse of Madness' does indeed return as you stated, yes AOS could be one of those timeline branches no doubt.

I’m looking forwards to the Marvel ‘What If?’ Series where every episode is 90 seconds long and ends with the TVA turning up and saying ‘No, this isn’t right, erase the timeline.’

Yeah. "What If" could very well be the timeline branches from the multiversal war. The ones that the Time Keepers clipped.

 

[Broseph44]

This is easily my favorite of the MCU shows so far.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

That's really convoluted.

I feel like considering AoS in the wider context of time travel presented in Endgame and Loki it fits quite well. And Marvel timetravel/multiverse stories are nothing if not convoluted.
Case in point:

Considering there's just one MCU timeline in play now

That being said, if the 'Multiverse of Madness' does indeed return as you stated, yes AOS could be one of those timeline branches no doubt.

What does 'now' or 'return' mean here though? If there ever was or will be a multiverse then from our perspective it's always there in a way, because the 'past' and 'future' only exist within a single timeline, not across a multiverse. You can't say something like "yesterday there were 500 timelines but we deleted most of them so today there's only one left."

 

[djsunyc]

ok...so i saw a video with this explanation...the tva only care about infintiy stones in different multiverses. the stones power an entire universe so a new timeline with stones can be another actual universe.

this is why some time travel is ok with them but some aren't.

loki stole an infinite stone so they had to end that timeline before a whole new universe formed with the power of it.

that would also explain why they didn't care about steve going back b/c he returned all the stones to their rightful place thus erasing those branches. so him being back with peggy doesn't matter b/c he doesn't have a new stone with him there.

that's why they have a drawer full of them...they want to reclaim all the stones so no new universes can be created.

this seems to make some amount of sense.

 

[Time Captain]

I feel like considering AoS in the wider context of time travel presented in Endgame and Loki it fits quite well. And Marvel timetravel/multiverse stories are nothing if not convoluted.
Case in point:


What does 'now' or 'return' mean here though? If there ever was or will be a multiverse then from our perspective it's always there in a way, because the 'past' and 'future' only exist within a single timeline, not across a multiverse. You can't say something like "yesterday there were 500 timelines but we deleted most of them so today there's only one left."

I just mean 'now' in the context of currently of the way the MCU is set up, with one time stream.

If the Multiverse is unleashed, yes.. there will be multiple timelines; past, present, future.

Heck (this isn't a spoiler, just a theory), if Doctor Strange creates/unleashes the Multiverse in Spider-Man:FFH .... two of those Time Branches created could indeed be the Tobey and Andrew Universes, despite their adventures happening years ago.

I've theorized that Feige will likely keep his work as the official MCU 'sacred timeline' and the Sony projects, Loeb projects, and past non-MCU Marvel projects as alternate time branches.

 

[Dark Raven]

I just mean 'now' in the context of currently of the way the MCU is set up, with one time stream.

If the Multiverse is unleashed, yes.. there will be multiple timelines; past, present, future.

Heck (this isn't a spoiler, just a theory), if Doctor Strange creates/unleashes the Multiverse in Spider-Man:FFH .... two of those Time Branches created could indeed be the Tobey and Andrew Universes, despite their adventures happening years ago.

I've theorized that Feige will likely keep his work as the official MCU 'sacred timeline' and the Sony projects, Loeb projects, and past non-MCU Marvel projects as alternate time branches.

I'm thinking that Feige introduced the multiverse into Marvel movies more as a matter of necessity than just for creative reasons. And probably a large part of that was driven by the Sony Spider-Man deal.

With Loeb projects or past non-MCU Marvel films, he could ignore them. But with Sony determined to have their own Spider-Man adjacent universe with films like Morbius, Venom and now Kraven, it was becoming more of a problem especially since Sony was going to want Holland's Spider-Man to show up in those films.

When the Disney/Sony deal was renewed, Feige put out a statement that Spider-Man was the only character capable of crossing universes. This was before all the multiverse projects for Phase 4 were announced including Dr Strange 2 (although after the multiverse was mentioned in Far From Home, which at the time proved to be a fakeout by Mysterio). At the time it just sounded like Feige meant that Spider-Man could now show up in both Marvel and Sony movies. But in hindsight it seemed that this was something driven by necessity to accommodate Sony, so perhaps Marvel decided to embrace it and make lemonade out of lemons.

 

[NHawk19]

I'm thinking that Feige introduced the multiverse into Marvel movies more as a matter of necessity than just for creative reasons. And probably a large part of that was driven by the Sony Spider-Man deal.

With Loeb projects or past non-MCU Marvel films, he could ignore them. But with Sony determined to have their own Spider-Man adjacent universe with films like Morbius, Venom and now Kraven, it was becoming more of a problem especially since Sony was going to want Holland's Spider-Man to show up in those films.

When the Disney/Sony deal was renewed, Feige put out a statement that Spider-Man was the only character capable of crossing universes. This was before all the multiverse projects for Phase 4 were announced including Dr Strange 2 (although after the multiverse was mentioned in Far From Home, which at the time proved to be a fakeout by Mysterio). At the time it just sounded like Feige meant that Spider-Man could now show up in both Marvel and Sony movies. But in hindsight it seemed that this was something driven by necessity to accommodate Sony, so perhaps Marvel decided to embrace it and make lemonade out of lemons.

Let's also not forget what "Into the Spider-verse" proved. It was a great testing ground for a lot of these concepts.

 

[Dr. Evil]

 

[Fosterson]

That's really convoluted.

Considering there's just one MCU timeline in play now, and AOS doesn't fit with it; no snap on AOS. It's simply easier just to decanonize AOS, assuming it was ever MCU canon at all.

I think initially we were supposed to view it as 100% canon to the movies, given that it had episodes that directly tied-in to the events of the movies, with the plot of TWS having a direct impact on the show. We also had appearances from multiple characters from the movies (Sif, Maria Hill, Sitwell, Doctor List and even Nick Fury). The AoU tie-in episode even served to explain the deus ex machina of how Fury was able to muster a Helicarrier to rescue the people of Sokovia.

Over time though, it seems that as the show-runners realised that their fidelity to the canon of the movies wasn't being reciprocated in the other direction, they decided to more or less go their own way. Or at least that's what I've read, since I stopped watching AoS after Season 2.

I think the MCU is nearly getting the point that Star Wars got to, where there is so much content (especially expanded universe stuff) that's mutually contradictory that we're gonna need a hierarchy of canon to avoid total confusion.

 

[metaphysician]

Honestly, the only show where that is really a big issue is Agents of SHIELD. So just ignore Agents of SHIELD, or any other show with major explicit or implicit contradictions. When there's a conflict, just remember: stuff actually made by Marvel Studios always wins.

 

[Time Captain]

I suspect this entire 'Multiverse' arc of the MCU is indeed a means to allow the Sony-verse to exist alongside the MCU, as an above poster said.

Instead of One Sacred Timeline, we may have a couple of them by the time Doctor Strange 2 ends.

Hopefully a small finite amount of timelines will be in play, otherwise all the stakes of the MCU will be minimized. Like having a similar doppleganger of RDJ's Tony out there in some ways diminishes the impact of his death. Hopefully that won't happen.

Going the Infinite Universes route would suck (sorry DC). I suspect Feige has more sense than that, that's why he introduced the Multiversal War concept. If too many timelines exist, there will be chaos.

Honestly, the only show where that is really a big issue is Agents of SHIELD. So just ignore Agents of SHIELD, or any other show with major explicit or implicit contradictions. When there's a conflict, just remember: stuff actually made by Marvel Studios always wins.

'Loki' Creator Further Calls into Question the Canon Status of 'Agents of SHIELD' - Murphy's Multiverse -

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Not touching all the timeline talk with Goku's staff other than to say a lot of very informed and smart posters in our community are likely jumping to some HUGE conclusions based off of very little evidence because they are invested in their own take on the finish of Endgame.

I would wait for the actual end of this arc/season before putting out any hard and fast conclusions about anything. I suggest taking note of all manner of background elements or characters in any scene as I will not be surprised at a crap metric ton of timey whimey shenanigans.


Great first episode that had the right mixture of character, humor and set up.

Tom is alwaya great and if the show just delivers on a fun interesting adventure and peeling back Loki's layers in the manner of this first ep I'll color myself happy.

I too vote the Evil Loki Variant will be female.