Exposed - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[NHawk19]

That's what I thought too. Then you could further argue he's exhibiting signs of flight by willing himself to stay in one place. Then state his powers for that ability must be growing even if it's unconscious.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

I dont understand the debate.

Clark has super strength, he can generate more force by pulling, than the helicopter can flying, regardless of it's weight. He tied the rope to the copter and pulled it down to him, simple as that. Weight doesnt matter. It's no different then 40 men being able to pull an airplane, as long as their generating more force than the plane, it's going to move towards them when they pull it. Sure it might have been easier to climb the rope, but Clark didnt want taking off or crashing with Lois in it. It was easier for him to pull it into himself and hold it there.

either way, after all it is fiction. I mena if you want to get technical about the things Clark does, you could bring up how there'd be an explosion everytime he used superspeed from the sonic boom

 

[AllThingsComic]

You're right , it would have been more fun to see.

 

[NHawk19]

I dont understand the debate.

Clark has super strength, he can generate more force by pulling, than the helicopter can flying, regardless of it's weight. He tied the rope to the copter and pulled it down to him, simple as that. Weight doesnt matter. It's no different then 40 men being able to pull an airplane, as long as their generating more force than the plane, it's going to move towards them when they pull it. Sure it might have been easier to climb the rope, but Clark didnt want taking off or crashing with Lois in it. It was easier for him to pull it into himself and hold it there.

The debate is it's physically impossible for him to stay on the roof and pull the Helicopter down, based upon how they showed it. Like I said think Fear Factor when they lift someone up by helicopter. If they pull on the ladder then helicopter does not come down to Earth they move up the ladder.

For what they showed to happen, Clark would need to be anchored to the roof, which he wasnt.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

The debate is it's physically impossible for him to stay on the roof and pull the Helicopter down, based upon how they showed it. Like I said think Fear Factor when they lift someone up by helicopter. If they pull on the ladder then helicopter does not come down to Earth they move up the ladder.

For what they showed to happen, Clark would need to be anchored to the roof, which he wasnt.

That example is flawed since ordinary humans arent able to exert more force downward than the helicopter is doing to stay airborne....

 

[AllThingsComic]

alrighty peoples my workday is done, so i'll be chattin' with you folks tomorrow, night Hawk and everyone else, be safe.

 

[NHawk19]

That example is flawed since ordinary humans arent able to exert more force downward than the helicopter is doing to stay airborne....

Actually its not. By pulling down Clark would launch himself upward as he doenst have the weight to stay on the roof. Much like in the horizontal a person on a luge sled does.

Night ATC

 

[Serene]

That's what I thought too. Then you could further argue he's exhibiting signs of flight by willing himself to stay in one place. Then state his powers for that ability must be growing even if it's unconscious.

I get what you're saying. And I think it's funny that they inadvertantly showed us that Clark does indeed have the ability of flight. At least, if you break it down in terms of real life physics. Well, real life with a bit of Superstuff thrown in.

 

[avidreader]

Actually its not. By pulling down Clark would launch himself upward as he doenst have the weight to stay on the roof. Much like in the horizontal a person on a luge sled does.

Night ATC

He doesnt have the weight, but doesnt his strength compensate for that.

 

[NHawk19]

He doesnt have the weight, but doesnt his strength compensate for that.

Not the way it was depicted. Unless they want to acknowledge his flight ability which the effects failed to do.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Actually its not. By pulling down Clark would launch himself upward as he doenst have the weight to stay on the roof. Much like in the horizontal a person on a luge sled does.

Night ATC

I dont see why weight matters. If you tie a rope to an airplane, and 40 men pull it, the plane is going to move towards the men, even though the plane outweights them by a significant amount. Those men arent anchored to the ground either. As long as their pulling with more force than the plane is pulling in the opposite direction it's going to move towards the men. The mass of the plane is part of the equation in just how much force it can generate, but the fact that it has more mass is irrelevant if the men are exerting more total force on the plane....

 

[avidreader]

I dont see why weight matters. If you tie a rope to an airplane, and 40 men pull it, the plane is going to move towards the men, even though the plane outweights them by a significant amount. Those men arent anchored to the ground either. As long as their pulling with more force than the plane is pulling in the opposite direction it's going to move. The mass of the plane is part of the equation in just how much force it can generate, but the fact that it has more mass is irrelevant if the men are exerting more total force on the plane....

Say that three times fast.

... and that's what I was trying to get at.

 

[AgentPat]

Unless Clark hooked his feet under something on the roof, or had one hand on the rope and the other hand on something immovable, the greatest downward force he'd be able to exert would be his own body weight - whatever that is. That's why your feet leave the floor when you do a chin-up. LOL This of course assumes Clark's lack of being able to fly at the moment, 'cause once he can do that, all bets are off. There's also a component to the speed of the jerk, but if done too fast, the chain/rope would break at its weakest point, or it might rip through the chopper's landing rung. Clark basically pulled the chopper down by hanging from it, which IS impossible given the relative mass at both ends. For all intents and purposes, physics wouldn't allow that unless Clark was able to pull in the other direction as well (from his feet or with the other hand). And he'd have to pull slowly so as not to break the line. You guys ever go fishing?

This was one of the non sequiturs with The Six Million Dollar Man. Steve Austin could lift all sorts of things with his right arm because it was bionic. But his arm should have ripped out of its socket when he did that since that's where the bionics stopped and the flesh and blood began.

<- knows a wee bit about physics and mechanical engineering and has to shut that part of the brain off in order to enjoy the fiction.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Unless Clark hooked his feet under something on the roof, or had one hand on the rope and the other hand on something immovable, the greatest downward force he'd be able to exert would be his own body weight - whatever that is. That's why your feet leave the floor when you do a chin-up. LOL

well actually that because youre body cant exert enough force to overcome the resistance of the bar being bolted in the wall, whereas someone like Clark could rip it off with ease, since he exerts such a greater amount of force.

This of course assumes Clark's lack of being able to fly at the moment, 'cause once he can do that, all bets are off. There's also a component to the speed of the jerk, but if done too fast, the chain/rope would break at its weakest point, or it might rip through the chopper's landing rung. Clark basically pulled the chopper down by hanging from it, which IS impossible given the relative mass at both ends. For all intents and purposes, physics wouldn't allow that unless Clark was able to pull in the other direction as well (from his feet or with the other hand). And he'd have to pull slowly so as not to break the line. You guys ever go fishing?

But your not dealing with a normal person. Clark's abilities give him the power to exert the force of many thousands of times his own body weight, which is usually shown as in the mid 200's.
Once you factor that into the equation, your theory goes out the window. If Force = mass X acceleration, you can consider Clark's abilities like an exponential increase in acceleration of that of a normal man. Granted he's not reallu pulling any faster, but his mass isnt increasing, so thats the best way I can explain it. MOdern physics dont take into account superpowers LOL

 

[AgentPat]

well actually that because your body cant exert enough force to overcome the resistance of the bar being bolted in the wall, whereas someone like Clark could rip it off with ease, since he exerts such a greater amount of force.

He couldn't rip it off the wall unless he was anchored at the other end. He could grab both ends and rip it against itself, which would tear the bar in half at the middle. That would work. He could bend it out of it's mount. That would work. But if he was just hanging from it, he'd be just like you or I. This is the fundamental principal behind Newton's third Law of Motion: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When Clark flung the nuclear missile's payload into space in Hidden, THAT is what should have sent him "flying" back in the opposite direction instead of just the explosion. If the payload had more mass than the missile (and Clark) combined, tossing the payload would have propelled him backwards instead of sending the payload into outer space because technically, he would have been pushing against a greater mass with nothing to prevent his backward momentum. This is the same thing that's happening with the helicopter on a tether.

But your not dealing with a normal person. Clark's abilities give him the power to exert the force of many thousands of times his own body weight, which is usually shown as in the mid 200's.

Oh, I know that. Clark can crush a lump of coal into a diamond if he wanted to. He can rip steel apart and punch through granite. No sweat. He can also lift wicked heavy things (we'll ignore the stress forces that would normally cause a tractor's bumper to rip off its mount when held from that point before the vehicle would actually rise from the ground. Where's Byrne and his aura nonsense to explain the day? )

The point is though, even the most mightiest of "machines" can't pull a helicopter out of the sky unless it...
A. weighed more than the maximum lifting capacity of the chopper, or
B. the "machine" was bolted to the ground.

For all intents and purposes, Clark is indestructible. So his body can withstand the sheer force of holding back a vehicle with the lift capacity of a few tons. But he HAS to hold something with the other hand (or feet?) to prevent the chopper from merely lifting his 220 lb self off the roof.

If Clark could FLY, that's a different problem and one that can't be argued using common physics. Newton's Laws can't explain how Superman can fly to begin with. LOL

 

[NHawk19]

Thanks for the help Pat

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

He couldn't rip it off the wall unless he was anchored at the other end. He could grab both ends and rip it against itself, which would tear the bar in half at the middle. That would work. He could bend it out of it's mount. That would work. But if he was just hanging from it, he'd be just like you or I.

Well see now youve changed the question. If Clark starts out hanging then no he wont be able to rip it off the wall. But if it's a bar he can reach while standing, as long as he can exert a force greater than the resistance the bar mounts have, he's going to rip it right off the wall. (Clark also most likely weights more than a chin-up bar BTW) It's no different than him picking something off a tree at that point. Clark wasnt hanging from the helicopter in Exposed.

 

[NHawk19]

Well see now youve changed the question. If Clark starts out hanging then no he wont be able to rip it off the wall. But if it's a bar he can reach while standing, as long as he can exert a force greater than the resistance the bar mounts have, he's going to rip it right off the wall. (Clark also most likely weights more than a chin-up bar BTW) It's no different than him picking something off a tree at that point. Clark wasnt hanging from the helicopter in Exposed.

Since the force required to remove the mounts from the wall is greater than the force of his weight, then he will just do another chin up. Even if he's just standing.

Hulk you're probably roughly the same build as Welling. If you do a chin up from a stand then you move the bar doesnt. If you pull harder, you move faster, the bar doesnt move. Same would be true for Clark.

Fist the verticle pull of the helicopter would have lifted him off the ground, because he wasnt anchored. Then when he tried to pull all he could do was climb the rope.

The reason you're plane scenario works is because of the friction on the ground. Do the same thing on ice and it doesnt hold true. In a similar way the friction force is removed in the verticle.

 

[AgentPat]

Well see now you've changed the question. If Clark starts out hanging then no he wont be able to rip it off the wall. But if it's a bar he can reach while standing, as long as he can exert a force greater than the resistance the bar mounts have, he's going to rip it right off the wall. (Clark also most likely weights more than a chin-up bar BTW) It's no different than him picking something off a tree at that point. Clark wasn't hanging from the helicopter in Exposed.

I didn't mean to imply that he started off hanging from the tether. If he yanks too fast, the tether would break - just like a thin fishing line with a grouper on the other end. If he yanks slow (like he would need to do), his feet are going to come off the ground because the chopper will lift him into the air, just as if he was sitting in the cab. It has a greater lifting capacity then his weight. If he weighed 100 tons or something, the chopper couldn't do it. Now, if his feet were hooked under something immovable on the roof, Clark could then exert the force necessary to yank the chopper out of the sky (assuming the tether and what it was attached to didn't fail from the stress first.)

Hulk this is simple physics, really. It has nothing to do with how strong Clark is per se. YOU can hold a helium balloon from floating away, but try to do that with the Goodyear Blimp. Heh. It's going to lift you (or Clark) right off the ground unless you could secure it at the other end. WE would do that by tying it off. Clark could do it by simply holding onto a tree or building. Nothing is going to rip HIM apart, but if we tried that and didn't let go... it would be a messy scene.

Strength is related more to pain. Strong individuals high on crack cocaine have been known to break through handcuffs because they didn't feel the pain when trying to pull the cuffs apart. It's easy, provided you don't mind breaking your wrists in the process, which is what would stop a normal person. But you still need to exert force in the opposite direction in order to do that. Sheering forces and traction come into play. Try pushing or pulling something while on ice skates. Unless you dig into the ice, you're only going to push or pull *yourself* in the direction opposite to the force being applied to the object unless you can secure yourself by digging into the ice. 'Tis Newton's Third Law.

<- Wanted to be a science teacher when she was young and stupid. LOL

 

[AgentPat]

...The reason you're plane scenario works is because of the friction on the ground. Do the same thing on ice and it doesnt hold true. In a similar way the friction force is removed in the verticle.

LOL! Great minds...

(I type too slow. You beat me, NHawk. )

 

[NHawk19]

LOL! Great minds...

(I type too slow. You beat me, NHawk. )

Anytime. Think we should show him vectors?

 

[Serene]

Hulk this is simple physics, really. It has nothing to do with how strong Clark is per se.

It is.. but in this case, simple physics isn't necessarily so simple, yes?

I understand the basics of Newton's laws (my physics background is more ultrasound related, but the basics were there..). But in this scenario, I think it's a reasonable suspension of disbelief (and accepted laws of physics) that Clark's alien strength can supercede the norm. The basic theory of F= M x Acceleration could still apply, but the two variables of mass and accel. are significantly changed when you apply the alien factor.

 

[NHawk19]

^ Helicopter's Upward Force
| 50,000 #'s
|
|
|

| Superman's weight
| 200#'s
\/


ugh, ok I was joking before but. . . Since Helicopter Upward Force is greater than Superman's weight he would be lifted off the ground.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

I didn't mean to imply that he started off hanging from the tether. If he yanks too fast, the tether would break - just like a thin fishing line with a grouper on the other end. If he yanks slow (like he would need to do), his feet are going to come off the ground because the chopper will lift him into the air, just as if he was sitting in the cab. It has a greater lifting capacity then his weight. If he weighed 100 tons or something, the chopper couldn't do it. Now, if his feet were hooked under something immovable on the roof, Clark could then exert the force necessary to yank the chopper out of the sky (assuming the tether and what it was attached to didn't fail from the stress first.)

Hulk this is simple physics, really. It has nothing to do with how strong Clark is per se. YOU can hold a helium balloon from floating away, but try to do that with the Goodyear Blimp. Heh. It's going to lift you (or Clark) right off the ground unless you could secure it at the other end. WE would do that by tying it off. Clark could do it by simply holding onto a tree or building. Nothing is going to rip HIM apart, but if we tried that and didn't let go... it would be a messy scene.

Strength is related more to pain. Strong individuals high on crack cocaine have been known to break through handcuffs because they didn't feel the pain when trying to pull the cuffs apart. It's easy, provided you don't mind breaking your wrists in the process, which is what would stop a normal person. But you still need to exert force in the opposite direction in order to do that. Sheering forces and traction come into play. Try pushing or pulling something while on ice skates. Unless you dig into the ice, you're only going to push or pull *yourself* in the direction opposite to the force being applied to the object unless you can secure yourself by digging into the ice. 'Tis Newton's Third Law.

<- Wanted to be a science teacher when she was young and stupid. LOL

But here's the problem with yours and NHawk's theories, and I'll point it out again. Clark has superstrength, which means that the force he can apply to an object (unlike anything else on the planet) FAR exceeds his weight by like millions of times, so all of Newton's laws go out the window once he exerpts more force than his weight. You can throw all of the high school physics in the garbage when it comes to him because it doesnt apply, before the up force of the copter even affected Clark he'd be pulling it in towards him. Now you're right that the rope might break, provided it cant withstand the resistance force the helicopter is putting on it, but provided it could, Clark shouldve been bale to real it in. Look I'm probably not explaining this the best way so try giving this a read. You can search for the parts about force...

http://www.physicsofsuperheroes.com/excerpt.htm

 

[NHawk19]

This isnt a matter of Super strength its a matter of what has greater mass.

It's a matter of what would move first Clark or the Helicopter. Since Clark has less mass than the Helicopter, and there is no friction to aid in his halt of it's movement, he would move towards the helicopter. And since he pulled really hard he would get there really fast.