Civil War The Captain America: Civil War News & Speculation Thread TAG SPOILERS! - Part 25

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But T'Challa
1. has the benifit of distance from the event. He's ran around, done some backflips, gotten a good workout in, blown off some steam and had a moment of realisation right before facing the true killer.

2. It wasn't for lack of trying that BP didn't kill Bucky, if it wasn't for the intervention of others (Cap, Wanda, Widow) he would have gutted Bucky like a fish.

For Stark it's right there in the moment, he sees his mother choked to death on screen by the guy standing a few feet away and he goes all Red Ross (which I was initially intending as a Friends reference but I suddenly realise it also works as a Thunderbolt/Red Hulk reference :awesome:.)
Those are good points. Tony didn't even seem to know that
his parents were HYDRA assassination targets, not an unfortunate car accident. Although, wouldn't that have shown up in the files Natasha leaked? At least that the directives of one the missions was extraction of super-soldier serum back in 1991, and he could have deduced it from there.

I feel that if he'd known his parents had been victims of HYDRA, he would have more likely had the space to accept that it was HYDRA the organization that killed his parents, and probably (hopefully) not put 100% of the blame on the brainwashed guy who was a victim himself.

For me, I was still TeamCap at that moment, because we've spent SO much time with them.

We see how much pain Bucky is in, trying to figure out how to live with himself and continue to fight what's been put inside him. We see how much Steve still believes in him.

In addition, the audience already has the knowledge that HYDRA had the Starks killed since TWS
(and it was strongly implied that Bucky was the only WS they could control, so he was likely the assassin who did it), so we've already had that sitting in our heads. It blindsides Tony, but it doesn't blindside the audience.

The audience has already accepted that Bucky is a victim throughout CW, so it was only on the basis of Tony's reaction that might switch the audience at that moment. It seems like a lot of people have, so kudos to RDJ. :cwink:

I wonder if my reaction would been different if it blindsided the audience as well.
 
Those are good points. Tony didn't even seem to know that
his parents were HYDRA assassination targets, not an unfortunate car accident. Although, wouldn't that have shown up in the files Natasha leaked? At least that the directives of one the missions was extraction of super-soldier serum back in 1991, and he could have deduced it from there.

I feel that if he'd known his parents had been victims of HYDRA, he would have more likely had the space to accept that it was HYDRA the organization that killed his parents, and probably (hopefully) not put 100% of the blame on the brainwashed guy who was a victim himself.

There was [BLACKOUT]some throwaway line about Hydra's files being encoded, which might somehow explain Stark not having found out prior to Zemo[/BLACKOUT].
 
What's funny is that my coworker (who's admittedly a high schooler in a 30-something's body) read that as Cap being as petty a-hole. Then I stopped talking to him about CW. :o



Tony tries to do the responsible thing, but the movie has shown that he's easily swayed by immediate emotion. Cap keeps his emotions in check, and continues to stand by his values. That's the actual responsible thing to do. (So does Bucky, actually. Bucky is the one character who deserves to just get away and eat his plums in peace but he gets back into the fray when he suspects the villain has a world-ending evil plot afoot.) The only time where Cap's emotions get the best of him is when he fails to tell Tony the truth about his parents, which he should have done, but doesn't directly put anyone in physical danger.

Here's what Tony does that rationally makes no sense and is emotionally immature:
  • Being confronted by a 20-something's mother to feel guilt over Ultron, and then recruiting a high schooler to fight other superheroes. Talk about doing a 180 there. He conveniently forgets his earlier pain, and even tricks Peter into taking his side even though ideologically, Peter's on Cap's.
  • Calling one of his own teammates, whose powers he helped create thanks to his weapon-building, a "weapon of mass destruction."
  • Refusing to listen to Cap at the airport. I forgot the exact exchange, but the guy had tunnel vision, only seeing what he wanted and not seeing the greater good like Natasha did.
  • Telling Vision to blast Sam out of the sky. I mean, dude, the guy has barely any armor, he would be as good as dead if he didn't dodge that.
  • Blasting Sam when Sam tries to help with Rhodey. (Not Sam's fault he didn't want to die!) THAT was totally petty, no bones about it. My audience wasn't sure whether to laugh at it or not.
  • Attacking Bucky at the end. Yes, he just found out the guy killed his parents, but if you see Bucky's face and his actions, he's terrified at that moment because he remembers it, and can do nothing to help the situation. His expression is completely different than how it was in the security feed. T'Challa showed MUCH more mature restraint when handling Zemo.
  • Tony would have gotten what he wanted (killing Bucky) if he didn't let Cap distract him at the end of the battle. Bucky was lying there, helpless with pain and having lost his primary weapon/shield. Cap was down and not in great immediate shape, Bucky even grabs Tony's leg and Tony could have stomped him, but no, he kicks Bucky in the face like a child. Turns his back on Cap, who takes the opportunity to take him down in turn. And I think if he HAD managed to kill Bucky, I don't think it would have helped him feel better in the long run, just like realizing what he did with Wanda was wrong when he saw it escalated into the Raft.
Tony still has a looooong way to go before he's up to Cap and T'Challa's (and even Natasha and Bucky's) level of responsible.

lol. I wouldn't want to be friends with your friend. ;)

And you are absolutely right about Tony. You got great points there.

About blasting Sam when it wasn't his fault, you can tell Tony Stark is impulsive. He gets emotional and does stupid things. I understand about the whole mom situation, that's understandable. It makes me wonder if Tony's blaster has different settings - lethal and non lethal. Probably does anyway.
 
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There was [BLACKOUT]some throwaway line about Hydra's files being encoded, which might somehow explain Stark not having found out prior to Zemo[/BLACKOUT].
If they were, there wouldn't have been the huge hubbub in TWS around Natasha leaking them, if nobody could or had actually read them. :oldrazz:

But yeah, it's a plot point in CW that the 1991 mission that killed the Starks was top-secret and probably encrypted somehow, considering all the trouble Zemo goes through to find more information on it, beyond knowing that it killed the Starks.
 
If they were, there wouldn't have been the huge hubbub in TWS around Natasha leaking them, if nobody could or had actually read them. :oldrazz:

But yeah, it's a plot point in CW that the 1991 mission that killed the Starks was top-secret and probably encrypted somehow, considering all the trouble Zemo goes through to find more information on it, beyond knowing that it killed the Starks.

Yeah, that's why I considered it a little too convenient in lieu of Pierce's comments - almost like the Russo's were trying to retcon something from TWS that was getting in the way of their story telling for CW.
 
Bucky didn't gloat about how he enjoyed doing it, he was devastated and terrified.

And T'Challa actually faces the man who DID kill his father, and sits down and listens to his story before clawing his throat out. That's what makes him more mature and responsible than Tony.

What do you mean [BLACKOUT]clawing his throat out? I was under the impression he stopped "Zemo" from committing Suicide. Oh, I feel really bad for that guy.[/BLACKOUT]

no, idk, with that Rhodey moment, nobody even wanted to laugh
everybody I was with agreed it was really weird, whether they were team cap or team IM

you have 15 minutes of awesome, funny, joyful superhero action
so then when something bad happens, you gotta let that moment stew a bit, give it the beat it needs

I was actually expecting a Gwen moment from ASM2 which made me cry. That was a shocking moment just like Gwen's. I don't know how he survived that impact.
 
no, idk, with that Rhodey moment, nobody even wanted to laugh
everybody I was with agreed it was really weird, whether they were team cap or team IM

you have 15 minutes of awesome, funny, joyful superhero action
so then when something bad happens, you gotta let that moment stew a bit, give it the beat it needs

That became a problem for me during multiple sequences in the movie. It's what happens when it's filled to the brim like it is.
 
I have a big question.

Is there any particular reason why Zemo killed the other subjects? What does he gain from it?
 
What do you mean [BLACKOUT]clawing his throat out? I was under the impression he stopped "Zemo" from committing Suicide. Oh, I feel really bad for that guy.[/BLACKOUT]
T'Challa approached Zemo
with his BP claws out. They have a shot specifically of him putting the claws back in before taking Zemo in alive, so they were out when he approached Zemo. But he decided to sit and listen to Zemo's story, after almost killing the wrong person earlier in the film.
 
I have a big question.

Is there any particular reason why Zemo killed the other subjects? What does he gain from it?

He talks about it in the movie. That was in line with his vendetta against the "enhanced" of the world. More running around was not something he had any interest in.
 
I have a big question.

Is there any particular reason why Zemo killed the other subjects? What does he gain from it?
He certainly doesn't lose anything. :oldrazz: Having them around wasn't part of his master plan, and he didn't want them running around anymore.
 
I have a big question.

Is there any particular reason why Zemo killed the other subjects? What does he gain from it?
He had nothing to gain from it since it was never part of his plan. It was all misdirection.
He was using the threat of the release of other spies like Bucky to cause CA and IM to show up in Russia when in actuality he wanted to show IM the tape of his parents being killed so he'd go after CA and Bucky.
 
He talks about it in the movie. That was in line with his vendetta against the "enhanced" of the world. More running around was not something he had any interest in.
Yeah, I must have missed it. I knew he hated the enhanced. Good enough.

He certainly doesn't lose anything. :oldrazz: Having them around wasn't part of his master plan, and he didn't want them running around anymore.

He had nothing to gain from it since it was never part of his plan. It was all misdirection.
He was using the threat of the release of other spies like Bucky to cause CA and IM to show up in Russia when in actuality he wanted to show IM the tape of his parents being killed so he'd go after CA and Bucky.

Yeah, I was kinda under the impression he would take over the world by taking control of those enhanced beings. A very different character than what I was expecting. Maybe that's why I am quite impressed with that character.
 
How hard would've been to at least incorporate cues from this theme:



into the movie? Heck if not that at least "Taking a Stand" from Henry Jackman's own TWS score. I love this Captain America trilogy but the lack of a consistent theme bothers me, same with the Iron Man trilogy(even though the IM3 theme was the best).
 
The Russo Bros and Feige gave an interview to Empire about CW where they answered some burning questions about some of the choices they made and the future of certain characters. Heavy spoilers ahead.

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/captain-america-civil-war-secrets/

Combating repetitiveness in superhero films:
A common complaint levelled at the recent slew of comic book movies is that they’re essentially all the same. The Russos recognised this, and looked to shake things up a bit. “We were saying to ourselves, the genre - and perhaps the MCU - has gotten to a point where the audience are sensing the patterns in the genre,” says Anthony. “Joe and I have always been about: how do we subvert genre?”

Hence, we don’t have that now-standard Marvel third act, which sees a city under siege from an abundance of faceless CGI baddies. Civil War’s third act is deliberately low-key, with a more ambiguous villain. Zemo (Daniel Bruhl) is “an everyman”, says Anthony. “His approach was: I’ve seen these guys fight enough to know I can’t win. But what I can do is figure out ways to undermine them. He’s emotionally driven and he finds a weak spot.”

Death of major character they didn't include:
In the original Civil War comic run, on which the film is (very loosely) based, Captain America concedes the fight with Iron Man. In the aftermath of the war, Cap is assassinated by Crossbones. But the Russos never planned to end the film that way. “Frankly, it just seemed like an easy ending,” Joe Russo explains. “We thought a more complicated ending would be more interesting – to see the ramifications of that moving forward. Killing Cap ends that conceptually. There would be guilt on Tony’s part.”

Anthony Russo agrees, describing the movie as a “family fight.” If that’s the case, the movie ends with the family more fractured than an EastEnders Christmas special. “The more difficult and more interesting place to leave a family fight is: can these important relationships ever be repaired? Is this family broken permanently?”

Appearance of Pepper Potts:
Pepper Potts – girlfriend of Tony Stark and CEO of Stark Industries – plays an important role in the movie, even though she’s never seen. Gwyneth Paltrow, who plays the character, was rumoured to have filmed scenes for the movie, but “that wasn’t true”, clarifies Joe. “The intent was always to put Tony in a very vulnerable place. We needed him off-balance for the way he behaved in the third act. He’s lost Pepper. He’s feeling an incredible amount of guilt. The movie tries to dig at the emotional trigger points so that by the time we reach that third act, his emotions will supercede his logic.”

Anthony also acknowledges that the sheer size of the ensemble made it more efficient to leave her out. “In a crowded movie, we decided early on that we could make Pepper’s break-up have an emotional impact without actually having a scene with her,” he explains. Paltrow’s Marvel contract was reportedly up after Iron Man 3, but as a key character, she could conceivably be tempted back.

Captain America's future:
At the end of the movie, in the final fight, Cap effectively beats Iron Man. But it’s a bitter victory, and after some words exchanged, Cap drops his shield. The Russos say this is Steve Rogers saying goodbye to Captain America – at least, as we know him. “Dropping the shield is a rejection of the Captain America identity and a choice to embrace the Steve Rogers identity,” says Anthony.

He’s a “full-blown insurgent”, says Joe Russo, pointing out the arc that the character has taken, with Steve starting to question power structures in The Winter Soldier, taken to its natural conclusion in Civil War. “The most interesting thing you can do,” Joe observes, “is to take him from a patriot in the first film to an insurgent in the third movie.”

Avengers' status:
At the end of the film, Steve informs Tony that “the Avengers are yours”. That really only leaves him a severely disabled Rhodey (Don Cheadle), a severely disaffected Vision (Paul Bettany), and a severely under-aged Peter Parker (Tom Holland). Not much of a team, given two enormous Avengers sequels are gearing up.

Kevin Feige admitted that there were some at Disney who “advocated...that everyone put aside their differences and team up in the third act to fight the bad guy”. But the filmmakers were determined otherwise. “We were all in sync on the notion of ending it...not perfectly,” as Feige puts it. “Things don’t get resolved easily. We believe very strongly that that would destroy the entire movie. Thankfully, Joe and Anthony were very vocal.” Feige implies that it will take a villain like Thanos to bring them back together, come Infinity War.

Chadwick Boseman's acting:
Chadwick Boseman makes his debut in Civil War as T'Challa, aka Black Panther, and immediately earned himself a #TeamPanther hashtag from a legion of fans hungry for more. Boseman – “the only choice we ever had”, according to Feige – went full Daniel Day-Lewis for the role, inventing an accent for the fictional African nation of Wakanda and sticking to it, according to Joe Russo. “For the entire run of the production, he spoke in that accent, whether he was on camera or not. He’s that kind of actor, he has a very specific process. It’s very intense performance.”

Germany fight sequence:
The signature sequence is the extraordinary battle in a German airport between the two factions of the Avengers, led by Cap and Iron Man. Joe Russo, sounding understandably tired, says it took “about two years working on that sequence”, from phase, to filming, to reshoots, to VFX and editing.

Anthony accepts that having the multiple characters, with their differing powers and motivations, was “massively complicated”. But the heart of the action is “driven by narrative and character. We structure all our action around it. Every single character in that fight has a personal motivation, that is sometimes loosely correlated to the team objective and sometimes not. Everybody has a different agenda.”

Vision's limits:
Vision, the mythical godlike sort-of-robot, was only introduced in last year’s Avengers: Age Of Ultron, and many people have been unclear on what he is, or what his powers are. The Russos point out that he differs slightly from the comics, in order not to make him too omnipotent. “For us as storytellers, it’s very important that no character be too powerful – that they have some internal flaw or insecurity that they’re struggling with. It just makes the characters more interesting,” says Joe.

“He floats by altering his molecular matter,” Joe continues. “His movement is a little more limited in our interpretation of the character. You’ll notice he does a lot of floating, rather than flying.” Many fans were pleased to see that Vision’s rather snazzy collection of shirt-and-sweater combos have made it into the adaptation.

Empire Strikes Back influence:
During the Big Fight, Spidey borrows a tactic used by Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back (a film the 15-year-old superhero describes as a “really old movie”) and brings down Giant Ant-Man by tripping him up with his web. But it was an important influence on the Russos in more ways than one.

“I sat in the theatre when I was 10 years old and watched Empire Strikes Back six times in a row,” says Joe. “It’s a seminal moment in our cinematic upbringing.” Further to that, though, Anthony says they their Civil War pitch was “always an Empire Strikes Back beat within the Marvel Cinematic Universe. For us, it was that downbeat deconstructionist film, one which tears things down before you build them back up.”

So, if Civil War is Empire Strikes Back, does that mean Infinity War is Return Of The Jedi? “Ewoks!” says Joe. “Lots of Ewoks.” Here’s hoping Wicket makes a cameo alongside Thanos.

Spider-Man's introduction:
Spider-Man’s introduction in the film comes with a sparkling scene between Peter Parker and Tony Stark in Peter’s New York apartment. It was a scene written by screenwriters Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely specifically for the new Spider-Man acting shortlist to audition with. “Chris and Steve did the first version of that scene specifically for the screen tests that Robert [Downey Jr.] had so graciously agreed to read alongside five candidates,” reveals Kevin Feige. “And obviously it was that scene that really solidified Tom Holland as the choice.”

Feige's favorite MCU moment:
Or, more accurately, the shocking revelation that it was Bucky (Sebastian Stan) who killed them. “I think it’s my favourite moment in 13 MCU films,” says the Marvel Studios boss. “The whole movie was building to that, and it’s amazingly executed by the Russos. It goes back to conversations we had years ago about how to make it different and how to have as many characters as any Avengers movie and yet have it end in a very different and personal manner.”

Bucky's future:
In a post-credits scene, Bucky offers himself up to be put on ice in Wakanda, where he is no longer a danger to himself or others. When asked if Bucky could appear in Black Panther’s solo movie, due in 2017, Kevin Feige pauses for a long time. “It... remains to be seen. He’s certainly in stasis there.” But the well-worn Feige Poker Face is in full effect here. “Where and when he comes out? I’m not sure...”

You can also listen to Empire's 2-hour podcast interview with Feige and the Russo Bros (which is probably where a lot of these answers came from.)

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/...rica-civil-war-joe-anthony-russo-kevin-feige/
 
Please don't call him the Mandarin. Please call him something else. Like the Tattooed Lava lamp man :hehe: or something. For some reason that makes me upset. The Mandarin is actually one of the VERY FEW Marvel Villains I know about.

Really? Describe what he's about without mentioning rings.
 
I forgot to add this to my review but

When Cap disarmed Iron Man and walked away with Bucky, and Tony got pissed and wanted him to leave the shield, he dropped the shield right then and there like a badass. It is after all a Stark property. Cap wasn't greedy. God, I love Cap.

That wasn't a "badass" move on Steve's part. Tony was right. In that moment, Steve didn't deserve that shield.


Before watching CW, I was on #TeamIronMan but expected to be swayed over to Steve's side. After watching it several times, I'm on #TeamPutSteveRogersOnTheRaftAndThrowAwayTheKey. Not only did he betray Tony, he also refused any attempt to compromise and led people who considered him a friend/role model into a disastrous battle. But hey! At least [BLACKOUT]he and his beloved Bucky walked, [/BLACKOUT]so that's a win, right? :whatever: As much as I love Captain America, his behavior was unforgivably selfish.
 
That wasn't a "badass" move on Steve's part. Tony was right. In that moment, Steve didn't deserve that shield.


Before watching CW, I was on #TeamIronMan but expected to be swayed over to Steve's side. After watching it several times, I'm on #TeamPutSteveRogersOnTheRaftAndThrowAwayTheKey. Not only did he betray Tony, he also refused any attempt to compromise and led people who considered him a friend/role model into a disastrous battle. But hey! At least [BLACKOUT]he and his beloved Bucky walked, [/BLACKOUT]so that's a win, right? :whatever: As much as I love Captain America, his behavior was unforgivably selfish.

Totally disagreed, but I'm typing on my cellphone so I don't want to elaborate further.
 
Really? Describe what he's about without mentioning rings.

Half Chinese, Raised in China, wasn't a wimp initially and he got his powers from learning science from an alien source (Indiana Jones feel) instead of injecting himself with Extremis. And oh, Rings are super important. They are his power source if I remember correctly.

That wasn't a "badass" move on Steve's part. Tony was right. In that moment, Steve didn't deserve that shield.


Before watching CW, I was on #TeamIronMan but expected to be swayed over to Steve's side. After watching it several times, I'm on #TeamPutSteveRogersOnTheRaftAndThrowAwayTheKey. Not only did he betray Tony, he also refused any attempt to compromise and led people who considered him a friend/role model into a disastrous battle. But hey! At least [BLACKOUT]he and his beloved Bucky walked, [/BLACKOUT]so that's a win, right? :whatever: As much as I love Captain America, his behavior was unforgivably selfish.

Using the term badass might have been a bit of an exaggeration. I think it is Cap's way of saying I don't need your shield to do what I do. He doesn't keep other people's property against their will. He's a good man.

Agree to Disagree with the rest.
 
Totally disagreed, but I'm typing on my cellphone so I don't want to elaborate further.

That's what's great about opinions. They aren't all the same.

When Tony backhanded Steve in the final trailer I wondered why he would have done that. Seen in context it was totally understandable because Cap earned that slap. People keep going on about how wrong they think Tony was but in his position the vast majority of humanity would have had the same reaction.

Betraying Tony by not telling him the truth was a cowardly, selfish act on Steve's part and that's what pushed Tony over the edge. Steve could have been honest with Tony from the start, but that would have made harder to protect Bucky, which was his only real goal. That was a major mistake which showed Steve's hipocrisy. He has derided Tony, Natasha and Fury for keeping things from him in the past. What made him think that keeping something so devastating from Tony was going to lead to anything but ruin?

I love the fact that Steve was allowed to be wrong for once. The fact that the movie drew such a strong reaction from me is proof of its greatness. The only thing I dislike is the idea that what Steve did to Tony was in any way right. It wasn't.
 
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What do you mean it wasn't in any way right? It spares him some pain until and if someone brings it up.
 
That wasn't a "badass" move on Steve's part. Tony was right. In that moment, Steve didn't deserve that shield.


Before watching CW, I was on #TeamIronMan but expected to be swayed over to Steve's side. After watching it several times, I'm on #TeamPutSteveRogersOnTheRaftAndThrowAwayTheKey. Not only did he betray Tony, he also refused any attempt to compromise and led people who considered him a friend/role model into a disastrous battle. But hey! At least [BLACKOUT]he and his beloved Bucky walked, [/BLACKOUT]so that's a win, right? :whatever: As much as I love Captain America, his behavior was unforgivably selfish.
Tony said it out of spite. Steve was done fighting with him. That is why he did it. As usual, Steve was the bigger man.

I have no idea what you are talking about with the movie. Tony, like always, was the selfish one acting immature. Steve was right, proven right, and those that fight by his said do so because they trust in him and know he is right. Just look at the teams make up. Steve wasn't the one who dragged a teen to a war. Look at who [BLACKOUT]switches sides. Both T'Challa and Nat realize the error of theirs and Tony's way[/BLACKOUT].
 
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That's what's great about opinions. They aren't all the same.

When Tony backhanded Steve in the final trailer I wondered why he would have done that. Seen in context it was totally understandable because Cap earned that slap. People keep going on about how wrong they think Tony was but in his position the vast majority of humanity would have had the same reaction.

Betraying Tony by not telling him the truth was a cowardly, selfish act on Steve's part and that's what pushed Tony over the edge. Steve could have been honest with Tony from the start, but that would have made harder to protect Bucky, which was his only real goal. That was a major mistake which showed Steve's hipocrisy. He has derided Tony, Natasha and Fury for keeping things from him in the past. What made him think that keeping something so devastating from Tony was going to lead to anything but ruin?

I love the fact that Steve was allowed to be wrong for once. The fact that the movie drew such a strong reaction from me is proof of its greatness. The only thing I dislike is the idea that what Steve did to Tony was in any way right. It wasn't.
Just because Tony overreacts like a bunch of people who can't control their emotional response, does not make it right. In fact, what is more morally justifiable, attempting to commit murder or protecting an innocent man that happens to be your friend?

Tony knows he is wrong at the end of the movie. It is written all over his face. It is why he doesn't respond to the call.
 
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Damn, this movie was awesome. Just saw it and thought it was perfect. The airport fight was absolutely fantastic. The Russos are really kicking ass so far. I thought they handled the large cast of characters really well. Can't wait to see them on an actual Avengers flick.
 
Just because Tony overreacts like a bunch of people who can't control their emotional response, does not make it right. In fact, what is more morally justifiable, attempting to commit murder or protecting an innocent man that happens to be your friend?

Tony knows he is wrong at the end of the movie. It is written all over his face. It is why he doesn't respond to the call.

I also got the idea that Tony realized he was wrong by the end of the movie. Him, Vision, and Rhodey are the only Avengers who would act according to the Accords, but even Tony showed he was willing to break those rules when he went to Siberia. And I doubt Peter will want follow those rules. The bulk of the team are with Cap.
 
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