Civil War The Captain America: Civil War News & Speculation Thread TAG SPOILERS! - - Part 26

[Leo Zelinsky]

No, Bucky isn't his brother. They have not the same blood, mother or father.

You don't need any of that to be brothers.

Ever hear the term brothers-in-arms? Brother from another?


Its a term. Jesus

Like Gamora said "Who put the sticks up their butts!?"


Goto YouTube or do a google search for Steve/Bucky Brothers a million videos come up

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[TheVileOne]

Tony and Steve may not have been close friends, but they were friends.

 

[Xeno]

He totally knew about HYDRA killing Starks though. And he is not one of those who can be pressed to saying lies.
Also, even if he wasn't sure he still should have said so to Tony. He should have told him about his suspicions and that he wasn't sure. Because this info belongs to Tony and Tony alone.

Steve definitely knew that Bucky was the assassin who killed the Starks. This was confirmed by the Russos and Markus & McFeely in interviews. As a matter of fact, M&M said that not telling Tony, betraying his trust and friendship, was the absolute worst thing that Steve Rogers has ever done. The directors and writers are the ultimate authority on the matter. Steve knew that Bucky killed the Starks, Steve withheld that information from Tony to keep the latter from going after Bucky, Steve was wrong to do so. End of story.

An aspect of Steve's obsession with protecting Bucky that I find particular galling is that Howard Stark remained steadfast in his loyalty to Steve until the day Bucky killed him. Howard continued to search for Steve's downed plane long after everyone else gave up. He kept Captain America's memory alive, much to Tony's dismay. Finding out that Steve protected his parents' killer after Howard's decades of devotion to his fallen friend must have been incredibly hurtful to Tony. Tony wasn't just being childish and petulant when he demanded that Steve Rogers drop the shield that his father had created because he didn't deserve it. He was being truthful. Having so thoroughly gone against everything that he claimed to stand for, and turned his back on Howard and his family, Steve was no longer worthy of touching that shield.

 

[Xeno]

You don't need any of that to be brothers.

Ever hear the term brothers-in-arms? Brother from another?


Its a term. Jesus

Like Gamora said "Who put the sticks up their butts!?"


Goto YouTube or do a google search for Steve/Bucky Brothers a million videos come up

Spoiler

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You can post a million sappy YouTube videos about Steve's brotherly love for Bucky and it still won't make his behavior towards Tony and the rest of the team seem any less crappy.

 

[dax]

Steve definitely knew that Bucky was the assassin who killed the Starks. This was confirmed by the Russos and Markus & McFeely in interviews. As a matter of fact, M&M said that not telling Tony, betraying his trust and friendship, was the absolute worst thing that Steve Rogers has ever done. The directors and writers are the ultimate authority on the matter. Steve knew that Bucky killed the Starks, Steve withheld that information from Tony to keep the latter from going after Bucky, Steve was wrong to do so. End of story.

An aspect of Steve's obsession with protecting Bucky that I find particular galling is that Howard Stark remained steadfast in his loyalty to Steve until the day Bucky killed him. Howard continued to search for Steve's downed plane long after everyone else gave up. He kept Captain America's memory alive, much to Tony's dismay. Finding out that Steve protected his parents' killer after Howard's decades of devotion to his fallen friend must have been incredibly hurtful to Tony. Tony wasn't just being childish and petulant when he demanded that Steve Rogers drop the shield that his father had created because he didn't deserve it. He was being truthful. Having so thoroughly gone against everything that he claimed to stand for, and turned his back on Howard and his family, Steve was no longer worthy of touching that shield.

How could Steve possibly know that Bucky was the assassin who killed the Starks? The video Steve saw in the Winter Soldier never showed Bucky killing Howard or Maria nor did Dr. Zola say they were murdered. Plus, Bucky told Steve that there were multiple winter soldiers besides him so as far as Steve knows, any one of them could've been the assassin. Besides, Tony and Steve didn't have much of a friendship to begin with because they've been feuding since the day they met in the Avengers and now, the discovery of Bucky being the killer of Tony's parents has only escalated Tony's feud with Steve. Lastly, who is Tony to decide what Howard would've wanted? He never cared for his father at all so Tony is in no position to tell Steve that he didn't deserved the shield.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

Steve's brotherly love for Bucky and it still won't make his behavior towards Tony seem any less crappy.

Why should anyone care about Tony's feelings in the first place.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

Besides, Tony and Steve didn't have much of a friendship to begin with because they've been feuding since the day they met in the Avengers

 

[BullMcGiveny]

To me, there's no justification for Steve not telling Tony Stark about his parents. IMHO, that is a betrayal of trust. It's a worse betrayal than what Cap has called Tony out on things in the past.

Funny thing.

Natasha was right next to Steve when Zola did his slide show.

And yet...

 

[Anita18]

Funny thing.

Natasha was right next to Steve when Zola did his slide show.

And yet...

She may have felt it was not in her place to tattle on Steve's childhood friend to Tony, which is a fair assessment.

But yeah, Steve really should have told Tony. It's not the absolute worst that any of the MCU heroes have done, but considering the history between everyone and Tony's rash nature, it wasn't surprising that things went down as they did.

 

[scarlet-witch]

Steve should've told Tony but I don't really blame him for not wanting to bring it up. It's not as if he and Tony were on great terms. They were friendly, but they've been disagreeing with each other openly. I can see how Steve might not know how to rationally tell him.

 

[Capsfan]

How could Steve possibly know that Bucky was the assassin who killed the Starks? The video Steve saw in the Winter Soldier never showed Bucky killing Howard or Maria nor did Dr. Zola say they were murdered. Plus, Bucky told Steve that there were multiple winter soldiers besides him so as far as Steve knows, any one of them could've been the assassin. Besides, Tony and Steve didn't have much of a friendship to begin with because they've been feuding since the day they met in the Avengers and now, the discovery of Bucky being the killer of Tony's parents has only escalated Tony's feud with Steve. Lastly, who is Tony to decide what Howard would've wanted? He never cared for his father at all so Tony is in no position to tell Steve that he didn't deserved the shield.

I assume, as the Russos explained, Zola showed Bucky's picture next to the articles about Fury and Stark's deaths.
Also, Steve had been searching for Bucky for two years, he could have found out from some old Hydra's files during that time.

Tony actually cared for his father, that's why he was so hurt, that Howard loved Steve more, than him.
And Steve should've told, even if Tony wasn't his friend, because Cap is the one, who always says that a person should have a choice.

 

[InCali]

I assume, as the Russos explained, Zola showed Bucky's picture next to the articles about Fury and Stark's deaths.
Also, Steve had been searching for Bucky for two years, he could have found out from some old Hydra's files during that time.

Tony actually cared for his father, that's why he was so hurt, that Howard loved Steve more, than him.
And Steve should've told, even if Tony wasn't his friend, because Cap is the one, who always says that a person should have a choice.

I can see why he wouldn't tell Tony or was waiting until the right time to do so. He knew Bucky was brainwashed and really wasn't responsible for their deaths. It's not something he would have ever normally done. If anything it shows, a deserved IMO, lack of trust in Tony's decision making. At some point, Tony had to know, but when to tell him would be the question.

 

[TheVileOne]

There is no right time to tell your friend and teammate that your parents, who you've believed for over 25 years died in a car accident were actually assassinated by HYDRA. Steve let that wound fester.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

She may have felt it was not in her place to tattle on Steve's childhood friend to Tony, which is a fair assessment.

But yeah, Steve really should have told Tony. It's not the absolute worst that any of the MCU heroes have done, but considering the history between everyone and Tony's rash nature, it wasn't surprising that things went down as they did.

So you're saying she prioritized her friendship to Steve over her friendship with Tony. Like Steve did re Bucky.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Why should anyone care about Tony's feelings in the first place.

I like you.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

I like you.

 

[Capsfan]

Black Widow is irrelevant in this case. She is a person with grey morality anyway.

But Steve is the one who always believes in people and after TWS I had no doubts, that he had told Tony about HYDRA ASAP. In AoU I thought they didn't mention it, because Whedon doesn't care about continuity. I've never expected such a "twist" from Steve. I can't believe he actually thought that Tony would have killed Bucky, having time to process. Steve is all about trusting his people and giving them a chance. And Tony - well, he IS flawed, but he totally isn't a cold-blood murderer. And the Russos confirmed it.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Black Widow is irrelevant in this case. She is a person with grey morality anyway.

I disagree with this logic.

The morality of the action is not altered by the prior morality of who did it.

If a choir boy and a repeat offender both commit a crime, is the repeat offender let off while the choir boy is punished?

But Steve is the one who always believes in people and after TWS I had no doubts, that he had told Tony about HYDRA ASAP. In AoU I thought they didn't mention it, because Whedon doesn't care about continuity. I've never expected such a "twist" from Steve. I can't believe he actually thought that Tony would have killed Bucky, having time to process. Steve is all about trusting his people and giving them a chance. And Tony - well, he IS flawed, but he totally isn't a cold-blood murderer. And the Russos confirmed it.

The thing about Steve hiding it from Tony is that

1) SHIELD/HYDRA's files were leaked to the internet TWO YEARS before Civil War.

During this time, scores of trained professionals would be working on decrypting those files, in agencies with ample resources like the NSA or GCHQ.

To say nothing of Tony himself, who is an Avenger, the team that was going after HYDRA early in AoU.

And yet, no one found out about it. No one except for one guy from a backwater company with a failing government, working alone.

The whole situation is so unlikely and far-fetched and designed to make Steve look bad because god forbid people root for him in what is his own alleged movie.

I can't take it seriously as a situation since it is so forced and contrived for cheap drama, to say nothing of the fact that

2)

Steve hiding this secret from Tony has no bearing on superheros being accountable.

 

[Capsfan]

I'm not saying that Widow isn't responsible. It's just that I'm not surprised considering what type of person she is. And if she thought that it's up to Steve, then well, it's understandable.

Steve hasn't become a bad person just because of one sin. It just means that he is not ideal too, that he is human, not a saint.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Here is an excellent article about this movie:
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/12...a-lesson-for-america-under-a-trump-presidency

I'm not sure if this guy is trying to publish a political thinkpiece by posing it as a film review, or trying to bestow a sense of applicability to make a movie seem more important than it is.

Ridiculous either way, and infuriatingly insulting in the second.

And also is proof that the Russos were absolutely successful... they said that they wanted people walking out of the movie debating about who was right and who was wrong. We're now almost a year later and it's *still* being debated.

So I say job well done Russos, job well done.

The thing is that, among other things;

The movie posits the governments are spurred by Sokovia to draft the accords, but no one asks or care how Sokovia came to happen or sanction it. This movie just ignores that.

Tony presses a minor into service. This isn't depicted as an example of Tony being even possibly wrong. It is presented as something fun.

Also, the situation between Tony and Steve, as I've addressed above.

They contrive and pick and choose, so that the audience ends up divided.

High art approaches a subject honestly and leaves audience to draw their own conclusions, whatever those are.

The Russos setting out to have 50%believe Tony is right and 50%believe Steve is right is the way as them setting out to make one or the other the good guy outright.

In both cases, you're aiming for a specific reaction from the audience.

 

[Shikamaru]

As much as I loved this film, I think Winter Soldier might still be the best Marvel film for me now that the hype died down. I'll have to rewatch CW and see how it compares.

Civil War, despite it being a great film, will always have the same core flaw that the book did: its political metaphor is kinda stupid. The Russos did the best possible job you could do with it, but it's still innately flawed from its inception. There's sadly no way of getting around that.

And for all the hate the Bucky subplot gets, it's one of the only things makes the Registration Act work way better than it did in the book. Without it Tony would never appear equally as misguided as Steve is in this movie. Bucky's situation is really the only thing that gives Steve's POV any legs to stand on.

 

[Anita18]

So you're saying she prioritized her friendship to Steve over her friendship with Tony. Like Steve did re Bucky.

I think she's letting the right people take responsibility. She's not a Nick Fury type, who tries to have a hand in everything.

Believe me, as someone who communicates A LOT between different departments at her job, most of the time it's best to let the right people take responsibility.

As much as I loved this film, I think Winter Soldier might still be the best Marvel film for me now that the hype died down. I'll have to rewatch CW and see how it compares.

Civil War, despite it being a great film, will always have the same core flaw that the book did: its political metaphor is kinda stupid. The Russos did the best possible job you could do with it, but it's still innately flawed from its inception. There's sadly no way of getting around that.

And for all the hate the Bucky subplot gets, it's one of the only things makes the Registration Act work way better than it did in the book. Without it Tony would never appear equally as misguided as Steve is in this movie. Bucky's situation is really the only thing that gives Steve's POV any legs to stand on.

Wanda's situation is actually laid out better in the film, and Steve is more emotionally caught up in it, in regards to how it has to do with the Registration Act. He gets PISSED out of nowhere when Tony admits that Wanda is locked up in the compound against her will.

Whereas with Tony vs Bucky, he's desperately trying to fix a broken situation far too late. He only acts enough against Tony to prevent him from killing Bucky, which means incapacitating the suit. During the entire fight between the three, I never felt that Steve was doing it because he was lashing out out of uncontrollable righteous anger.

The Bucky subplot was mainly to put an emotional rift between Tony and Steve, that's all. The Registration Act made it worse, because Steve refused to give up Bucky by Tony/Ross's deadline because he felt he had to stop Zemo's plan. But it didn't come to a head until they all got to Siberia.

And then in the end, maybe it didn't matter because it looked like they were going to heal that rift anyway? Yeeeeeaaah.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fairly well-structured movie from all the pieces it tried to put together. But considering how many inaccurate assertions that people have been posting in this very thread about the plot, the narrative and thematic thrust REALLY could have been done a lot better. It's no Winter Soldier, that's for sure.

 

[Capsfan]

During the entire fight between the three, I never felt that Steve was doing it because he was lashing out out of uncontrollable righteous anger.

REALLY? After Tony ripped off Bucky's arm, I've got afraid of Steve and so did Tony. And even F.R.I.D.A.Y. was in panic. It was the most violent Steve I've ever seen. And he almost killed Tony aiming to his head at first with his shield. That was a horrible, most violent scene in an entire MCU, imho.

 

[Anita18]

REALLY? After Tony ripped off Bucky's arm, I've got afraid of Steve and so did Tony. And even F.R.I.D.A.Y. was in panic. It was the most violent Steve I've ever seen. And he almost killed Tony aiming to his head at first with his shield. That was a horrible, most violent scene in an entire MCU, imho.

That's because the film took the POV of Tony, who was afraid that Steve was going to kill him. Arguably, because he doesn't know Steve that well. (Which, you know, duh.)

If Steve had been aiming for Tony's head, he would have done it. (If he was really mad at Tony, he also wouldn't have sent an apology letter afterwards.) He doesn't do anything halfway.

But this is exactly what I mean when I say that the film needed a lot of work structurally. It has so many moving parts and takes so many different POV, that people watching the same movie have completely different interpretations of the actions of even the title character.

Winter Soldier has a lot of plot stuff going on too, but it took the POV of Steve trying to figure stuff out. You know where the movie stands no matter what's going on.

 

[Capsfan]

That's because the film took the POV of Tony, who was afraid that Steve was going to kill him. Arguably, because he doesn't know Steve that well. (Which, you know, duh.)

If Steve had been aiming for Tony's head, he would have done it. He doesn't do anything halfway.

What does it mean exactly "took the POV of Tony"? Did we see not an actual action, but Tony's fantasy? Why else would Tony be afraid of Steve killing him? It makes no sense. It's not about "knowing Steve well". Everybody knows that Steve doesn't usually kill even the worst of villains. Let's not make a total idiot and coward out of Tony. He had never been any of it.

And I'm judging not only by Tony's reaction, but by my own reaction and what I actually see in the movie. Steve was so violent, ripped off Tony's helmet for no actual reason whatsoever. He was aiming for his head not his chest and moved back only after Tony put up his hands to protect his head. Heck, Steve's face in that moment was really horrible. And all of this when only mere seconds ago he almost lost his consciousness.

Steve was being able to stop himself. And this is great, it shows his strong will. And he was right to send the letter because it was his fault too and Steve is a really good guy. He owns his mistakes.

I think, a movie that allows different interpretations is a sign of a great movie. But that's not the case in that moment. It was shown clearly that the shield was aimed at first at Tony's face. This and also otherwise Cap had no reason to waste a precious time smashing and ripping off Tony's helmet.