The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[The Shape]

You know it's only a matter of time before we get a comic book continuation of the Nolanverse, like the new Batman 89 series. Will be very cool.

 

[BatLobster]

Do any of you have any theories/head canons for how the story continued post-Rises?

I actually spent one of my first sessions trying out ChatGPT brainstorming movie ideas-- one of them being a hypothetical fourth Nolan Batman movie. It was pretty silly, and I don't think we really got anywhere substantial, but it was also a lot of fun just to throw stuff at the wall and see if any decent ideas arose. I had it suggest a bunch of titles, and the one that stood out to me was "The Dark Knight Resurgent", which I thought had a cool ring to it.

The broad strokes of it were treating it like a legacy sequel. Picking up the story decades after TDKR. Blake is still Gotham's protector, but the story isn't from his point of view. Instead it's more of a hero's journey for a young character named Damian, lost and traveling the world like Bruce was at the beginning of Begins. Obviously there would be a familial connection implied to Bruce because of the comics, but it wouldn't be immediately clear if he's actually Bruce's son-- or if he is, who is mother is. IE- He could be Bruce and Selina's son, or perhaps Talia survived and gave birth. Or another descendent of the Wayne family. Didn't get far enough to decide on that.

The movie would basically about themes of legacy, with Damian eventually encountering Blake when he arrives in Gotham. So right there you'd be dealing with Blake, Bruce's chosen protege, vs. his potential bloodline. There's conflict there with both of them struggling with their own connections to the legacy and who is the 'true' heir, etc. Obviously Damian would have a lot of issues he'd be working through, given that he's a loner seemingly estranged from his family. But Blake would become a mentor for him and the movie would be them forging a partnership. Like the comics though, I think Damian would have a really dangerous side to him that concerns Blake. Kind of like an Anakin/Obi-Wan thing.

The villain would be Hugo Strange. I was thinking that he would be a great puppet master for this story, trying to manipulate Damian and Blake to compete against each other for the mantle. His potential endgame could be to lure Bruce out of hiding and claim the mantle for himself. There are a bunch of potential directions I think you could take it from there, but that was the gist of it.

Obviously these are just rough ideas, but I think that is kind of my head canon for at leas the broad strokes of how I'd want to re-enter that world. I'd want it to be through the eyes of a new, younger character and kind of expand the Bat-family-- not just the adventures of John Blake. If you were going to tell a story immediately after TDKR that's one thing, but I already think that ship has sailed given that the movie is 12 years old already. JGL is already older than Bale was in TDKR, so I think it would make more sense to see him in more of a mentor role.

 

[The Batman]

Do any of you have any theories/head canons for how the story continued post-Rises?

Blake either becomes Batman, or goes by Nightwing instead.

His main love interest is an adult Barbara Gordon, who comes back to Gotham to repair her relationship with Jim. At some point, she becomes Oracle.

Blake's rogues gallery is a mix of Nightwing villains, 1 or 2 Titan villains, Tim Drake villains, and villains from Dick's tenure as Batman. Professor Pyg would basically be his Scarecrow, the villain who keeps popping up.

Bruce never comes back to Gotham. He and Selina travel the world, enjoying life.

 

[Matt.S99]

I roughly jotted down this idea last year. No real thought behind it, just a short little idea. Tbh I don’t know exactly how Poison Ivy would fit into it all, I just wanted to throw her in there. Though, I also had an idea to put her in a hypothetical Catwoman spin off, which would have most likely taken place before Rises. Maybe have her and Selina be friends at first, kind of like Barbara and Pam in the ‘The Batman’ animated series.



Nightwing (2015) (Can’t think of a good title)

Director: Christopher Nolan

Writers: Jonathan Nolan, David Goyer, Christopher Nolan

Score: Hans Zimmer



Cast:

John Robin Blake/Nightwing: Joseph Gordon Levitt

Jim Gordon: Gary Oldman

Alfred Pennyworth: Michael Caine

Lucius Fox: Morgan Freeman

Luke Fox: Chadwick Boseman

Jervis Tetch/ Mad Hatter: Andy Serkis

Pamela Isley/Poison Ivy: Emily Blunt

Jennifer Holly Robinson: Juno Temple





Cameos:

Bruce Wayne: Christian Bale

Selina Kyle: Anne Hathaway

Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow: Cillian Murphy







Story Synopsis: John Blake has taken up the position of Gotham’s Protector, but felt that the mantle of Batman was appropriately retired and takes up the codename of Nightwing.

Along with the Batcave, Blake has also inherited access to some of Bruce Wayne’s close group of associates. With both Alfred Pennyworth and Lucius Fox on the verge of retirement, Luke Fox, takes over the position of The Dark Knight’s equipment supplier and right hand man.



A string of strange kidnappings arise in Gotham, reminding citizens of the harrowing events caused by the Joker, years prior. These events are being carried out by Jervis Tetch, one of the only Arkham Inmates that remain at large following the events of Batman Begins (2005).

Desperate for help in dealing with the ever-growing crisis, Blake turns to Jen Robinson, his former girlfriend. Like Blake, she also grew up in Gothams foster system.

Jen has enthusiastically taken on the role of ‘The Cat’, despite Selina Kyle’s insistence that she move on from her life in Gotham and start anew.



Without the Batman, can Nightwing fill the void left by him and protect Gotham from another criminal mad man?

Meanwhile, we are introduced to Pamela Isley. A researcher of medicinal and hallucinogenic effects derived from plants. Pamela starts researching and developing a potentially harmful substance with mind controlling properties, based loosely on Jonathan Crane’s fear gas.

 

[Cap2024]

Just saw this post and can say I was in it!

I’m the center guy wearing glasses at the 1:17 mark.

The explosions going off around me was unreal. Also those things hurt! A piece of it got onto my hand and gave me a minor scar for a couple of days lol. They’re hot.

One awesome thing was seeing the details. There were literally writing pads with the logo for the Gotham Stock Exchange. Audiences never saw that, but we did. It was amazing seeing how intricate all of those minor details were.

There was another minor scene I was selected for where me and another guy were walking up the stairs. That scene wasn’t used. Nolan directed us in it which was beyond surreal. Just establishing shot type stock footage.

At the time I had no idea who Glen Powell was. I actually thought he was either a new actor or an extra that was promoted to be an actor in it for that scene since he didn’t have many lines (and that’s sometimes known to happen).

The first time seeing it in Imax I didn’t see myself at all. Second time I realized my face was one of the largest things on the screen since I was almost exact center lol.

If there’s any questions about the set or Nolan I can perhaps try to answer to the best of my ability.

 

[Rick190293]

There’s a movie theater chain here in Brazil who’ll show a certain trilogy…
Guess what I’ll be watching right now

 

[Matt.S99]

Just saw this post and can say I was in it!

I’m the center guy wearing glasses at the 1:17 mark.

The explosions going off around me was unreal. Also those things hurt! A piece of it got onto my hand and gave me a minor scar for a couple of days lol. They’re hot.

One awesome thing was seeing the details. There were literally writing pads with the logo for the Gotham Stock Exchange. Audiences never saw that, but we did. It was amazing seeing how intricate all of those minor details were.

There was another minor scene I was selected for where me and another guy were walking up the stairs. That scene wasn’t used. Nolan directed us in it which was beyond surreal. Just establishing shot type stock footage.

At the time I had no idea who Glen Powell was. I actually thought he was either a new actor or an extra that was promoted to be an actor in it for that scene since he didn’t have many lines (and that’s sometimes known to happen).

The first time seeing it in Imax I didn’t see myself at all. Second time I realized my face was one of the largest things on the screen since I was almost exact center lol.

If there’s any questions about the set or Nolan I can perhaps try to answer to the best of my ability.

Wow!!! This is so cool!!! How long did it take to film that scene? Did you take one of those notepads? Hahahaha

 

[Cap2024]

Wow!!! This is so cool!!! How long did it take to film that scene? Did you take one of those notepads? Hahahaha

It was two days of filming if I remember correctly. I didn't take a notepad, but I regret that I didn't.

 

[Dede]

I’m seeing rises again next week. Is anybody else seeing any of the trilogy being re released ?

 

[ALittlePush]

Got to laugh at the little nod at the 1:51 mark. Bane seemed to know one of the hostages.

 

[Rick190293]

I’m seeing rises again next week. Is anybody else seeing any of the trilogy being re released ?

I'll watch TDK this friday, and Rises next week. Can't miss these re-releases!

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I think the new crticisms from younglings on the internet towards these films is, to put it bluntly, due to jealousy. There seems to be a section of the fandom that hates how beloved the trilogy still is so they try to find ways to discredit them and it's mainly coming from the Reeves Batman stans.

Okay, I am so glad for this post (and the others quoted below) because I've wanted to say it for so long - but was afraid of the backlash from The Batman fans and maybe some Mods for bringing the topic up. And keep in mind - I'm a fan of The Batman! I'm 100% embracing the new. I just got my Robert Pattinson Batman Hot Toys figure last week and I couldn't be happier to pose him alongside Bale, Keaton, and West.

But I've also noticed this incessant need from those that prefer The Batman to really tear down other forms of Batman - especially The Dark Knight Trilogy. I've mentioned - with a lot of ire thrown my way - that the amount of crap Reeves-Batman fans throw at Nolan/Bale and the series just comes off as deep insecurity about the new film.

The amount of defending I've had to do of this series against Reeves' Batman fans is really a bummer. They work overtime trying to discredit them - and often make that their main source of engagement with other fans.

They seem to feel that the new Batman film exists only in the shadow of the Dark Knight Trilogy - that that series being acclaimed still and hold in high regard means that people won't love the new series as much. And that's just not true. It's its own thing and it's great for that reason.

Personally, I think they expected The Batman (2022) to light the world on fire - and to be real, it didn't. It did well - but as a Batman fan, I hated admitting that like within 3 or 4 weeks of the release, it felt like nobody outside of Batman fans were talking about it. It came and went so fast without nearly as much fanfare as I'd hoped. I think that the Reeves Batman 'stans' saw that too - and really feel insecure about the film for that reason and maybe they know it lacked the appeal of the Trilogy.

But I do feel because this older series is so beloved still and was so revolutionary for the genre - they feel like any praise for that series is a point of praise not spent on The Batman. Which triggers their frustration - so they spend a lot of time taking the Trilogy down several pegs, try to rewrite the history of them, paint them as mediocre, etc. Hoping that maybe they'll dethrone it.

The problem is these people willfully ignore or try to rewrite the reception to Nolans trilogy, and it's incredibly frustrating as someone who was there to experience the zeitgeist of that trilogy.

Absolutely. This is where my frustration comes in - the rewriting of history. It's totally fine to not like a classic film or film series. It's totally cool to critique it and claim it's not as good as the legacy suggests. But I see Batman fans (most of whom prop up the new film) try to act like the films were received lukewarm at best, and that The Dark Knight was only well reviewed because of Heath Ledger. It's disingenuous, deceitful, and untrue.

I'm not a Star Wars fan - but I've seen it with Star Wars where many are claiming and arguing that there was never any backlash or hate for the Prequels. That's just...patently not true. But they do so to prop up the Prequels as a means to slam the newer films. There's always an angle.

I wasn't gonna say anything about Reeves stans today, but....yeah, even before TB came out, there's been a "Loki wants to outdo Thor" vibe coming from some of them.

Truth.

I truly do not get that attitude because you're totally correct, here - that has been the energy/vibe I've gotten from them. And I think they'd never admit it - but they might feel that The Batman maybe wasn't as good as this series or received as great by fans/general audiences.

Otherwise, why the insecurity? The film should speak for itself, right?

I really hope it lessens over time because in the end, I really want to enjoy the new Batman series alongside other fans and take part in the joy - but I don't want to do that if it means I have to do so at the expense of prior Batman films.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

You know it's only a matter of time before we get a comic book continuation of the Nolanverse, like the new Batman 89 series. Will be very cool.

I'd be way more interested in a comic series that bridges the gap between Knight and Rises. I think that gap is ripe with amazing story potential.

A series that shows Batman and Gordon doing what they can to take on crime while Batman dodges police sight for a couple years after. And the last act of the comic series shows Batman getting desperate for purpose as the Dent Act and his efforts finally yield results - somehow it's not brought him peace but purposelessness. Driving him to start the energy project and seeing it fail drives him and Batman into hiding.

I'd even dig a series between Begins and Knight showing us the couple years between where Batman was taking on the mob and continuing to notice Joker but seeing him as small potatoes.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Okay, I am so glad for this post (and the others quoted below) because I've wanted to say it for so long - but was afraid of the backlash from The Batman fans and maybe some Mods for bringing the topic up. And keep in mind - I'm a fan of The Batman! I'm 100% embracing the new. I just got my Robert Pattinson Batman Hot Toys figure last week and I couldn't be happier to pose him alongside Bale, Keaton, and West.

But I've also noticed this incessant need from those that prefer The Batman to really tear down other forms of Batman - especially The Dark Knight Trilogy. I've mentioned - with a lot of ire thrown my way - that the amount of crap Reeves-Batman fans throw at Nolan/Bale and the series just comes off as deep insecurity about the new film.

The amount of defending I've had to do of this series against Reeves' Batman fans is really a bummer. They work overtime trying to discredit them - and often make that their main source of engagement with other fans.

They seem to feel that the new Batman film exists only in the shadow of the Dark Knight Trilogy - that that series being acclaimed still and hold in high regard means that people won't love the new series as much. And that's just not true. It's its own thing and it's great for that reason.

Personally, I think they expected The Batman (2022) to light the world on fire - and to be real, it didn't. It did well - but as a Batman fan, I hated admitting that like within 3 or 4 weeks of the release, it felt like nobody outside of Batman fans were talking about it. It came and went so fast without nearly as much fanfare as I'd hoped. I think that the Reeves Batman 'stans' saw that too - and really feel insecure about the film for that reason and maybe they know it lacked the appeal of the Trilogy.

But I do feel because this older series is so beloved still and was so revolutionary for the genre - they feel like any praise for that series is a point of praise not spent on The Batman. Which triggers their frustration - so they spend a lot of time taking the Trilogy down several pegs, try to rewrite the history of them, paint them as mediocre, etc. Hoping that maybe they'll dethrone it.


Absolutely. This is where my frustration comes in - the rewriting of history. It's totally fine to not like a classic film or film series. It's totally cool to critique it and claim it's not as good as the legacy suggests. But I see Batman fans (most of whom prop up the new film) try to act like the films were received lukewarm at best, and that The Dark Knight was only well reviewed because of Heath Ledger. It's disingenuous, deceitful, and untrue.

I'm not a Star Wars fan - but I've seen it with Star Wars where many are claiming and arguing that there was never any backlash or hate for the Prequels. That's just...patently not true. But they do so to prop up the Prequels as a means to slam the newer films. There's always an angle.


Truth.

I truly do not get that attitude because you're totally correct, here - that has been the energy/vibe I've gotten from them. And I think they'd never admit it - but they might feel that The Batman maybe wasn't as good as this series or received as great by fans/general audiences.

Otherwise, why the insecurity? The film should speak for itself, right?

I really hope it lessens over time because in the end, I really want to enjoy the new Batman series alongside other fans and take part in the joy - but I don't want to do that if it means I have to do so at the expense of prior Batman films.

I don't think it's insecurity, no one pretends The Batman was the kind of hit the trilogy was and tbh those movies aren't ever going to be. No Batman movie in the future will be either. It's an unreasonable expectation for fans of the movie to have and frankly not a terribly reasonable criticism of the movie either. A lot of what makes the nascent Batman Saga great is what will keep it from ever being a four quadrant billion dollar success - I wouldn't want Reeves to make it faster paced or make Bruce a more accessible/likealbe character, it'd be a lesser project for it.

It's two things, IMO: the first is shiny new toy syndrome. If I remember correctly from your posts (forgive me if I'm wrong) you were at least somewhat active in the fandom during the Nolan era where the drama and dick measuring between Nolan and Burton fans was perpetual. It was particularly intense right after Begins came out and in the build up to TDK. It was a defining part of the discourse. The excitement and potential of the new thing makes the flaws in what came before suddenly feel painfully apparent. Batman ain't the only franchise this happens with.

The second is just the extremely picky nature of Batman fans. Because I do think The Batman is clearly comparable in quality to the trilogy how closely it resembles someone's preferred take on Batman becomes a huge factor in them preferring it. Even though it's even more "grounded" than Nolan ever got The Batman is still engaged with elements of the character the trilogy wasn't particularly interested for the most part, if you're not as into the Bond Batman stuff it's going to feel like the Batman you love more than Nolan's did. Even in little ways like Bale (who will always be my favourite Bruce Wayne and I'm a huge defender of his suit performance) in the suit acting almost entirely dissimilar to how Batman is normally written and portrayed just as a screen presence whereas Pattinson just instantly embodies that Kevin Conroy energy.

Just to be clear: I like both equally and don't think one is more faithful than the other, nor do I consider that faithfulness a value in and of itself. Both diverge heavily in order to use the characters to express the unique voice of the filmmaker while still fundamentally understanding them, as is right and good.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

It's two things, IMO: the first is shiny new toy syndrome. If I remember correctly from your posts (forgive me if I'm wrong) you were at least somewhat active in the fandom during the Nolan era where the drama and dick measuring between Nolan and Burton fans was perpetual. It was particularly intense right after Begins came out and in the build up to TDK. It was a defining part of the discourse. The excitement and potential of the new thing makes the flaws in what came before suddenly feel painfully apparent. Batman ain't the only franchise this happens with.

I was active, but I think a key difference here is that those that were on the Burton side of that debate back then were pretty against anything new being able to top Burton's films - and were not in favor of the films even being made, at all.

Whereas I don't recall ever seeing Nolan fans being upset that something new was in the pipeline. They were openly wanting to embrace it, too. That's a pretty huge difference.

I still think it's insecurity because you don't go out of your way to tear down the past, rewrite history and slam what came before if you're feeling confident with what you got now. I've been that fan with something else - so I'd know!

 

[flickchick85]

I was active, but I think a key difference here is that those that were on the Burton side of that debate back then were pretty against anything new being able to top Burton's films - and were not in favor of the films even being made, at all.

Whereas I don't recall ever seeing Nolan fans being upset that something new was in the pipeline. They were openly wanting to embrace it, too. That's a pretty huge difference.

I still think it's insecurity because you don't go out of your way to tear down the past, rewrite history and slam what came before if you're feeling confident with what you got now. I've been that fan with something else - so I'd know!

Then you're seeing what you want to see, because I'm seeing the same thing from both. Nothing ever changes that much with fanboys. That "Insecurity" is something the Batfandom shares no matter which version you stan...which is hilarious considering Batman is easily arguably the most successful superhero on film. But there are always fans who get defensive about praise for an iteration that's not their preferred one.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Then you're seeing what you want to see, because I'm seeing the same thing from both. Nothing ever changes that much with fanboys. "Insecurity" is something the Batfandom shares no matter which version you stan...which is hilarious considering Batman is easily arguably the most successful superhero on film. But there are always fans who get defensive about praise for an iteration that's not their preferred one.

The Batman being an unambiguous success which seems to have only grown in critical estimation since its release being insufficient for people because it wasn't a pop culture phenomenon is very telling about the fandom , I see a decent number of people wanting the whole series scrapped for an imaginary scenario where The Brave & The Bold recaptures the Nolan era zeitgeist.

Or, another example, when reviews dropped for The Batman I popped into the thread the mood was so morbid that until I went and actually read them I genuinely thought the movie was being panned. Batman fans are ****ing spoiled.

 

[flickchick85]

The Batman being an unambiguous success which seems to have only grown in critical estimation since its release being insufficient for people because it wasn't a pop culture phenomenon is very telling about the fandom , I see a decent number of people wanting the whole series scrapped for an imaginary scenario where The Brave & The Bold recaptures the Nolan era zeitgeist.

Or, another example, when reviews dropped for The Batman I popped into the thread the mood was so morbid that until I went and actually read them I genuinely thought the movie was being panned. Batman fans are ****ing spoiled.

For real. Just ask Supes fans*.

*Or ya know, fans of even less fortunate characters like Green Lantern lol.

 

[Dede]

Batman fans also had to deal with Batman and robin and Catwoman as well as bvs

 

[The Joker]

Yes but before Batman and Robin and Catwoman we had Burton's movies. Before BvS we had the TDK trilogy. Batman fans have been a lot better off than Superman's.

 

[BatLobster]

I still think the dynamic of social media is also just a massive factor in this stuff. Back in the old "Burtonite/Nolanite" days, it was pretty much relegated to forums like this. It was petty, but it was also kind of just comic book nerds being comic book nerds. Batman fans were opinionated long before the internet existed, before most of us were even born. But whatever it was like then, it's now on steroids both due to the pop culture saturation that comic book films had and the way the internet is now. In the post-Snyder era, it seems like now some groups of Batman fans are more incentivized to latch onto a particular director and make that their entire personality on social media, chasing the follows and likes of like-minded people, often by trying to dunk on other "competing" Bat-films. And I'd say it's generally Gen Z fans who do this.

It's kind of funny though, because I think Reeves and Snyder fans mostly fight with each other while Nolan is kind of the elephant in the room that can trigger inferiority complexes in both. So you've got a lot of edgelord types (both Reeves and Snyder's visions flirt with "R-rated Batman" moreso than Nolan) sort of fighting over similar territory. But then Nolan's movies become an easier target for either camp to dunk on at any point for being dumb, cheesy, overrated, etc. The Snyder fan might go after the fight scenes, while a Reeves fan might go after Nolan's Gotham or the lack of sexiness, etc. Nolan's movies have to carry the weight of being the pop culture darlings that the normies love, but "real fans" can show their cred by bashing.

It's sad, being a fan used to be, on the whole...a fun experience. It's why I look back so fondly on the TDKT days, the anticipation, the viral marketing, etc. It was just an absolute BLAST. Now, I honestly think being a fan is much more of a miserable experience online, unless you're really good at tuning out the noise. I think I've become pretty good at it, but I just can't imagine how kids who choose to express their fandom on places like Twitter are having "fun". I can't imagine them being nostalgic for the time they're spending on there in a decade. That platform specifically is literally designed to keep you angry and addicted. Thankfully we still have places like this where more nuanced conversations can happen.

I will also state for the record that I never stopped loving the Burton films even at the absolute height of my Nolanverse fandom. The closest thing I came to that was I remember watching Batman 89 after seeing Batman Begins and being a bit shocked at how suddenly cartoony it felt. It just shook up my perception of the movie a bit because Batman 89 was always the epitome of what I considered to be a dark/serious Batman movie at the time. Ultimately it just recontextualized it a bit for me, but I didn't suddenly stop loving it. I understand there's a shiny new toy factor, but in my experience I find my fondness grows for the older iterations in unexpected ways as we get further from it. You can appreciate aspects of it more and of course there's a nostalgia factor, even if it doesn't all age perfectly.

 

[Gothamsknight]

There's a spark missing these days from being excited about a new film in general. The event feeling is just gone, and that's reflective in a lot of my theater visits over the last 2 years. There's plenty of movies I'm very excited for, but to the point where I'm shaking in my seat from excitement, and people screaming as the lights go out are long gone. Part of me thinks it's the feeling of entering my 30's, and the other part of me feels like the rise of rage bait and franchise weaponizing after the Star Wars sequels has played a factor in me personally. Being so invested in a franchise is difficult for me now, especially with how my experience was engaging with people on those movies. It'd bad enough that's sort of warped my enjoyment of Star Wars.

It's just not fun to engage with people anymore over some movies. I find myself looking back on the glory years (for me), when the raimi films were coming out, LOTR, TDK trilogy, and even Harry Potter. Again, there's still many films I'm very excited for (Nosferatu, Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, Deadpool and wolverine, James Gunns Superman, etc) and I go to the cinema often, but it's rare for me to have a movie these days where I wait years and years scouring every detail. The Batman was probably the last time I came close to that, and The Force Awakens before that. In terms of audiences all being engaged, I'd say No Way Home was a loud and fun experience and of course Endgame. But I haven't experienced anything remotely similar since.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Part of me thinks it's the feeling of entering my 30's, and the other part of me feels like the rise of rage bait and franchise weaponizing after the Star Wars sequels has played a factor in me personally. Being so invested in a franchise is difficult for me now, especially with how my experience was engaging with people on those movies. It'd bad enough that's sort of warped my enjoyment of Star Wars.

Dang, man. This is so, so relatable - and it's a bit cathartic to read someone else say it!

The rise of rage-bait and franchise weaponizing (as you put it) has really made all of online film discourse (and gaming, too) nearly insufferable and I can detach from that toxicity with some things, but there are other franchises and IPs that are so near and dear to me that...I just cannot detach in that way. I wish I could. I've seen too much, though.

It's turned a lot of geekdom into nothing more than a knives-out battleground 24/7.

And as much as I hate to admit it - it has harmed/warped my enjoyment of some things. The Batman got wrapped into it with Catwoman's "white privileged" line and that wasn't fun, but what got it tenfold worse because of its proximity to Star Wars was Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny. I love the film - but because Kathleen Kennedy, Disney and LucasFilm were involved - that film was a prime candidate for YouTubers/Twitter users in that crowd of 'anti-woke', franchise-weaponizing rage-bait to take out their anger over Star Wars and tear it to pieces before it even hit theaters.

And destroy it, they did. With glee, I might add - because slamming it and making up stories about reshoots with no evidence, claimed it had 'feminist rewrites', full of 'wokeness', was 'retribution' for what they feel was 'done' to Star Wars. The film, like many others online, wasn't a film. It's ammunition for the culture war they've made up.

I'll admit, seeing a series I love and hold dear dragged through that mud for weeks on end...it kinda did hurt my hype-level. I knew the film was DOA because the online narrative about it being 'woke propaganda' and that agenda had 'ruined Indy like it did Star Wars' was already decided even before filming began. It still harms my enjoyment because anytime I want to engage about the film online since, the dialogue is riddled with cries about 'wokeness', 'agenda ruining Indy', 'worst film ever thanks to Kathleen Kennedy's FEMALE characters', calling anyone who liked it a 'shill', etc.

The film still did good with critics and even better with audiences and fans overall - but you'd never know it. The rage-bait world dominates the conversation about it like they do for many other films like Star Wars. It's good for clicks and addictive anger.

It's hard to view a film in a series you love in that context - and be able to unsee it all and forget it when you're watching it or talking about it.

And we Indy fans have it good compared to Star Wars fans!

I'm not a fan of the series - but the weaponization of that franchise has really sucked the fun out of it for most fans I know. The Prequel era was absolutely madness toxic - but somehow, it got even worse post-The Last Jedi. And with added dosages of bigotry, to boot.

And I cannot imagine trying to engage and be a fan trying to remain positive in the midst of it. I couldn't manage it.

All this to say - I get it. And you're right - it has tainted my enjoyment of the medium as a whole and what I look forward to because I spend more time being told why it already sucks and having to defend it than enjoying it with a cool community like I used to years prior.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I will also add that the seedlings for what became modern film discourse online started around the time The Dark Knight Rises dropped, too. The over-analytical, nit-picky, YouTuber-dominated angry nerd type methods of discussing things really hit hard that year.

"pLoT HoLEs!!!!"

The Dark Knight Rises just had the unfortunate timing to come out right when that iron was struck. Hence why it's bashed so much and considered 'underrated' despite being a wildly successful, audience and criticially acclaimed hit.

Take those people and add hefty doses of anger-addicting, radicalizing bigotry - and here we are today.