What version of Doctor Doom do you want to see?

[The Question]

Once again, just because you don't see or understand something doesn't make your opinion about it reality. There are absolutely major differences in male and female personality formulation right down to the details of brain chemistry. You are simply wrong about your made up personality theory.

Nope.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...ences-minimal-mars-venus-study_n_2618199.html

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-02/uor-maf020113.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_psychology

It's actually a fairly controversial area of psychological study, but there is absolutely no hard evidence that proves that men and women are inherently psychologically different, and quite a lot of evidence that suggests that the differences between men and women are entirely social in their origins and are not immutable.

Haha. Yeah, we would actually like to see the thing we love adapted to the screen in the form we love. How dare we!

More that you see entirely superficial changes to be a threat to the sanctity of the properties you love, which I think kind of misses the point of both adaptation and fictional narrative.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Once again, just because you don't see or understand something doesn't make your opinion about it reality. There are absolutely major differences in male and female personality formulation right down to the details of brain chemistry. You are simply wrong about your made up personality theory.

Agreed. Most studies performed on men and women support similar differences in personality, and what traits each gender tends to have or value. The way the brain functions, what we're taught as children, etc. It all plays a part.

Even if all things were the same, the very fact most people would read sexual tension into a Reed/Female Doom dynamic (even if all interactions were the same as they would be if both were male) would be viewed as being sexually based. The fact that people's minds would even go there in the same set of circumstances shows a difference in how society views the genders (and reacts).

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Nope.

It's actually a fairly controversial area of psychological study, but there is absolutely no hard evidence that proves that men and women are inherently psychologically different, and quite a lot of evidence that suggests that the differences between men and women are entirely social in their origins and are not immutable.

So you direct me to the Huffington post and Wikipedia? Hahaha! Hilarious!! Yes that definitely trumps both of my degrees in psychology and my 20 years of practice. Wow. You really know your stuff.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

More that you see entirely superficial changes to be a threat to the sanctity of the properties you love, which I think kind of misses the point of both adaptation and fictional narrative.

Gender, race, origin and core personality traits are not superficial. Somebody is missing the point.

 

[Ant-manic]

Once again, just because you don't see or understand something doesn't make your opinion about it reality. There are absolutely major differences in male and female personality formulation right down to the details of brain chemistry. You are simply wrong about your made up personality theory.

and transgendered individuals? how about the "super" intelligent? can real world psychology even be applied to a fictional character; such as Doom? traumatic experiences (nearly freezing to death in your father's arms) in the formative years of life can certainly alter personality development. i think you overstate the major differences.

 

[Ant-manic]

Gender, race, origin and core personality traits are not superficial. Somebody is missing the point.

definately. the point is that an actor or actress will be bringing these qualities to life. we're not talking about real people. Doom will be whatever the writer wants her to be.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Except Doom.

 

[The Question]

Except Doom.

If she walks like Doom, talks like Doom, dresses like Doom, wants the same thing as Doom, how is she not Doom? Is he solely defined by having a cock and balls?

 

[lordofthenerds]

There's more to gender than having a penis and balls. Psychologically and physiologically. And since both comic books and film are visual mediums, the look of the character is very important. There's more to comic book characters than their personalities. Why else would we value the comic book artist so much? When people think of Dr. Doom, a specific mental image comes to mind.

A female Doom simply doesn't work as an interpretation because he has always been portrayed as male. It's pretty simple. Whoever interpreted Dr. Doom as being female interpreted the character incorrectly.

 

[The Question]

There's more to gender than having a penis and balls. Psychologically and physiologically.

What if you cast a female actor and switched the pronouns but did everything else the same?

And since both comic books and film are visual mediums, the look of the character is very important. There's more to comic book characters than their personalities. Why else would we value the comic book artist so much? When people think of Dr. Doom, a specific mental image comes to mind.

A female Doom simply doesn't work as an interpretation because he has always been portrayed as male. It's pretty simple. Whoever interpreted Dr. Doom as being female interpreted the character incorrectly.

Characters get redesigned in the comics and in adaptations all the time. Do you think it's wrong to make any kind of alterations to their costumes?

How does changing Doom's physical sex change the character a betrayal of the character if you keep everything else the same?

Should parts in Shakespeare plays never be recast with actors of different genders? Should Helen Mirren not have been allowed to play Prospero in the 2010 movie version of The Tempest?

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

There's more to gender than having a penis and balls. Psychologically and physiologically. And since both comic books and film are visual mediums, the look of the character is very important. There's more to comic book characters than their personalities. Why else would we value the comic book artist so much? When people think of Dr. Doom, a specific mental image comes to mind.

A female Doom simply doesn't work as an interpretation because he has always been portrayed as male. It's pretty simple. Whoever interpreted Dr. Doom as being female interpreted the character incorrectly.

Correct.

 

[Spider-Fan]

People have addressed these points, Question. You're just obviously not going to agree with them. So, do we have to argue in circles about both this and Tellar? I think you've made it clear that you're going to write off anyone's points, anyway. I'm just seeing the same posts from people on this topic now.

I say agree to disagree at this point. That's just me.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Yep.

 

[The Question]

People have addressed these points, Question. You're just obviously not going to agree with them. So, do we have to argue in circles about both this and Tellar? I think you've made it clear that you're going to write off anyone's points, anyway. I'm just seeing the same posts from people on this topic now.

I say agree to disagree at this point. That's just me.

How am I writing people off? I'm asking people questions and I'm addressing every argument they make. When I've agreed with people, or when when there was something I wasn't sure about, I said so. I feel like I've been pretty polite during this conversation. If I haven't been, please tell me what I did wrong and I'll correct the behavior.

 

[lordofthenerds]

What if you cast a female actor and switched the pronouns but did everything else the same?

Then it would still be different. She would look female. Doctor Doom doesn't look female, and he's never looked female.

Characters get redesigned in the comics and in adaptations all the time. Do you think it's wrong to make any kind of alterations to their costumes?

You're comparing a change in costume to a sex change? I think most would agree that a sex change is a much larger change to a character.

In response to your question though, typically I do prefer character's costumes to have some kind of consistency at least.

How does changing Doom's physical sex change the character a betrayal of the character if you keep everything else the same?

Because changing the sex of the character in itself changes the entire look of the character. In all honesty, it would usually change aspects of personality too. You don't seem to realize it's a huge change.

 

[Spider-Fan]

How am I writing people off? I'm asking people questions and I'm addressing every argument they make. When I've agreed with people, or when when there was something I wasn't sure about, I said so. I feel like I've been pretty polite during this conversation. If I haven't been, please tell me what I did wrong and I'll correct the behavior.

All these arguments are the same. Same things said about MBJ as Johnny everyday. Doom argument goes in circles. It's just a repeating of the same points over, and over again. It's just one giant circle. It is just apparent, people supporting these changes won't agree with those who don't. All we're going to get is a giant cycle of the same posts, which in the end shall sway no one.

 

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Yep.

 

[The Question]

Then it would still be different. She would look female. Doctor Doom doesn't look female, and he's never looked female.

Okay. Why is different bad?

You're comparing a change in costume to a sex change? I think most would agree that a sex change is a much larger change to a character.

It isn't if you don't change anything else about the character.

In response to your question though, typically I do prefer character's costumes to have some kind of consistency at least.

That's fair.

Because changing the sex of the character in itself changes the entire look of the character. In all honesty, it would usually change aspects of personality too. You don't seem to realize it's a huge change.

It only changes one part of the look of a character. And it doesn't have to change any of the character's personality if the writer doesn't want it to. I don't really see why it has to be a huge change.

All these arguments are the same. Same things said about MBJ as Johnny everyday. Doom argument goes in circles. It's just a repeating of the same points over, and over again. It's just one giant circle. It is just apparent, people supporting these changes won't agree with those who don't. All we're going to get is a giant cycle of the same posts, which in the end shall sway no one.

Okay. Well, if you don't want to talk to me about this anymore, I'm not holding you hostage. If people respond to something I've said and I have something to say back, I'll respond to them. If they don't, I won't. If they want to start another train of conversation in the thread, I'm not going to do anything about it. I might join in, I might not. I'm not keeping anybody talking about this who doesn't want to.

 

[lordofthenerds]

Okay. Why is different bad?

Because Doctor Doom is an iconic character.

It isn't if you don't change anything else about the character.

I disagree.

It only changes one part of the look of a character. And it doesn't have to change any of the character's personality if the writer doesn't want it to. I don't really see why it has to be a huge change.

It just is a huge change.


I realize I'm being curt with these responses, but I'm going to have to agree with Spider-Fan. Judging from the last few pages, this argument will surely go nowhere. You won't convince me, I won't convince you. These arguments have been played out. What's the point of continuing this?

 

[The Question]

Because Doctor Doom is an iconic character.

So we should keep intact the things that make him iconic. What he looks like outside of his armor isn't one of them.

I disagree.


It just is a huge change.


I realize I'm being curt with these responses, but I'm going to have to agree with Spider-Fan. Judging from the last few pages, this argument will surely go nowhere. You won't convince me, I won't convince you. These arguments have been played out. What's the point of continuing this?

Okay, that's cool.

 

[Ant-manic]

Then it would still be different. She would look female.

that's an assumption. Doom is covered head-to-toe in armor. remember Kristoff vernard? he looked like Doom too. but he was a small child. the armor concealed his identity/appearance.

 

[Ant-manic]

There's more to gender than having a penis and balls. Psychologically and physiologically. And since both comic books and film are visual mediums, the look of the character is very important. There's more to comic book characters than their personalities. Why else would we value the comic book artist so much? When people think of Dr. Doom, a specific mental image comes to mind.

http://images.moviepilot-cdn.com/doom-black-panther-s-sister-is-dr-doom.jpeg?width=900&height=550