Discussion: The REPUBLICAN Party - - - Part 18

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I just can't relate to the way that you seem to think that your personal circumstances should determine the way that people in general and your friends in particular ought to vote. It seems naive. I think voting for Trump was a bad idea, but I assume that it was a poor decision composed of 1,000,001 influences. Why would you be prioritised above all of them?

You make it sound like I only care about my own healthcare. I was in favor of universal healthcare before I needed it desperately. I am not going to let someone die of a curable condition to give someone like Trump a tax cut. You make it sound like a trivial matter. It's literally life and death for tens of thousands of Americans.

If you're going to vote for and support a man whose policies may literally kill your friend then you are no friend.

Let's see how that he votes when he gets a preexisting condition or two though.
 
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I think for many Trump voters out there, it wasn't necessarily a matter of voting for something Trump "stood for" because actually, people still can't figure that out....it was truly a vote against Clinton (and again an ignorant vote) knowing some of these people they actually were closer to Clinton on the Political Spectrum than ANY Republican, let alone Trump who is all over the Political Spectrum....some were willing to hold their nose because they agreed with him on our relations with Mexico, China etc....most of those people had never heard of Pence, hell a good number of those people had never voted...ie "rural, non-working women" who had never voted before voted with their husbands this time up in the midwest because Trump promised them they would get their "rust belt" jobs back.....they haven't....so for many of those people, others losing health care, Gay Rights, etc was not even an after thought...that wasn't why they were voting. Those that are xenophobic, homophobic, racists who wanted Obamacare flushed, even though they actually know nothing more about it than that Obama's name is on it are a good number, but I bet we are not friends with them....never have been, never will be...they simply heard 1 or 2 things, just like the Religious Right heard "I'm pro-life" out of a man that had been "Pro-abortion" his entire life until 2 years ago. My family who voted for the man, hated the Clintons...they had no clue what other repercussions there would be, I have one family member that I would call racist, the rest it was because they did not want Clinton in office. They are the same ones that believe the list of people the Clinton's had killed is true. I can judge them to be ignorant, but I can't judge them to be haters of certain Americans....even though their vote put a man in office who is....

I believe, and will always believe...that those who voted for Trump, would never have voted for Clinton....except for the few in the "Blue Wall States" that had voted Democrat their entire lives until now because the Democratic Party showed them nothing to vote for....Trump did. Lies? yes, but at least he spoke to them. So, it is very hard for me to judge ALL TRUMP VOTERS AS.....???????????????? and I think we can lose valuable friendships and family relations if we judge using such a wide paint brush.
 
Same with Bernie. He mobilized a lot of people who never voted. Including younglings and old, disillusioned voters.
 
Same with Bernie. He mobilized a lot of people who never voted. Including younglings and old, disillusioned voters.

Yes, I think he brought in some new voters, but I think he also had many tried and true Democrats that thought even Obama was not liberal enough. It was THOSE VOTERS, that put the nail in the coffin for Clinton by not voting. Those new voters have never been in the mix before. NOW, had they voted, could the tables have turned? Only if they were in the "Blue Wall States" and Florida. :csad:
 
Definitely lost MI because of them...
 
Yes, I think he brought in some new voters, but I think he also had many tried and true Democrats that thought even Obama was not liberal enough. It was THOSE VOTERS, that put the nail in the coffin for Clinton by not voting. Those new voters have never been in the mix before. NOW, had they voted, could the tables have turned? Only if they were in the "Blue Wall States" and Florida. :csad:

To be fair, Obama would be a moderate Republican in the 80's. So they're not wrong. Bernie is a new deal, old school Democrat.
 
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It just blows my mind that the Republican Party is actually getting behind Cheetoh and going with this whole "What about Hillary" defense. The woman is gone. She has no power over anyone. Meanwhile, the guy who has the military codes had a traitor running his campaign and we're supposed to not even bat an eye.
 
They've become exceedingly good at employing fascist tactics.
 
My family who voted for the man, hated the Clintons...they had no clue what other repercussions there would be, I have one family member that I would call racist, the rest it was because they did not want Clinton in office. They are the same ones that believe the list of people the Clinton's had killed is true. I can judge them to be ignorant, but I can't judge them to be haters of certain Americans....even though their vote put a man in office who is....

There are some Republicans out there (including one so-called independent) who just loathe the Clintons. Some have it out for Hillary because she was willing to stick with Bill despite his infidelities and that she was "complicit" in his harassments and unproven assault charges of women like Paula Jones.

That's how eager the right-wing 'pundits' were to punish Hillary for the sins of her husband. It's disgusting.
 
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To be fair, Obama would be a moderate Republican in the 80's. So they're not wrong. Bernie is a new deal, old school Democrat.

Don't believe I said they were wrong? I was just stating facts. :)

Also, Bernie is actually far from a New Deal, old school Democrat.....the New Deal, or a great part of it was actually written by a Republican by the name of Hoover, and old school Democrats are actually more Republicanesque than Republicans. Bernie is actually very much a NEW DEMOCRAT moving further away from Blue Dog way of thinking....which is "Old Democrat thinking" to a much more Liberal far left Neo-Progressive stance. Don't take any of that negative, I actually agree with a lot of his ideas, etc....I just don't think he is the person to bring these ideas to the mainstream.
 
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It just blows my mind that the Republican Party is actually getting behind Cheetoh and going with this whole "What about Hillary" defense. The woman is gone. She has no power over anyone. Meanwhile, the guy who has the military codes had a traitor running his campaign and we're supposed to not even bat an eye.

Because if my suspicions are true this investigation with Russia probably involves them as well, they're getting scared, and they know that as this progresses their legislatives will be much harder to pass.
 
You make it sound like I only care about my own healthcare. I was in favor of universal healthcare before I needed it desperately. I am not going to let someone die of a curable condition to give someone like Trump a tax cut. You make it sound like a trivial matter. It's literally life and death for tens of thousands of Americans.

If you're going to vote for and support a man whose policies may literally kill your friend then you are no friend.

Let's see how that he votes when he gets a preexisting condition or two though.

The failing in this line of thinking is, I think, that it presumes that you can assume another voter's democratic rights are subject to your own interests, and that failure to vote in accordance with your interests ends any further dialog because you have "unfriended" that voter.

While I can see that you might well be angry with someone for voting for a manifesto which promises a negative impact on you, I think it is more helpful in the long term to try to understand their motivations and then to persuade them to change their mind. For instance, the voter might have voted for Trump because:

* He/she didn't approve of the less assertive foreign policy pursued by Obama and promised by Clinton.

* He/she holds socially conservative views which he/she thought Clinton attacked.

* He/she thought the anti-regulatory, protectionist, and tax-cutting economic policies promised by Trump would be beneficial for jobs and/or growth.

* He/she didn't feel that the Washington "establishment" of which Clinton was a key figure represented him/her, and so voted for someone who professed to loathe it.

* He/she believed that Obamacare was expensive and chaotic, and thought that it would be better repealed and replaced.

You might scoff at any of the reasonings above, and for the most part I would join you in arguing that they were misconceived or at least oversimplified. But measured against the supposition that your friend voted for Trump because he or she wanted you to be deprived of healthcare, each seems more plausible.

If we accept that, then we also have to accept that your friend didn't appreciate the consequences of voting Trump for you personally. He or she might have been callous, thoughtless, confused, ignorant, or simply wrong; or he may have had an even more compelling reason to disregard your circumstances in favour of others. In any of these cases I would argue that expressing your hurt and anxiety to your friend and imploring him or her to think more carefully in future may achieve a double benefit of retaining a friend and losing Trump a reelection vote. As it stands, you seem to have lost a friend and potentially to have entrenched a vote for Trump.

Again, I genuinely do sympathise with your circumstances, but in my experience moving someone from the "friend" to "enemy" column is hardly ever beneficial to anyone.
 
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Don't believe I said they were wrong? I was just stating facts. :)

Also, Bernie is actually far from a New Deal, old school Democrat.....the New Deal, or a great part of it was actually written by a Republican by the name of Hoover, and old school Democrats are actually more Republicanesque than Republicans. Bernie is actually very much a NEW DEMOCRAT moving further away from Blue Dog way of thinking....which is "Old Democrat thinking" to a much more Liberal far right Neo-Progressive stance. Don't take any of that negative, I actually agree with a lot of his ideas, etc....I just don't think he is the person to bring these ideas to the mainstream.


I just reread this many times. Maybe something is in my eyes. Maybe I am not reading it right. Did you just call Bernie Sanders far right?

No hyperbole, this is the most stunning thing I've read on hype.
 
I just reread this many times. Maybe something is in my eyes. Maybe I am not reading it right. Did you just call Bernie Sanders far right?

No hyperbole, this is the most stunning thing I've read on hype.

Uh....no. I simply stated that I disagree with saying he is "old school democrat", "old school democrats" were pretty much moderate Republicans. With the death of Kennedy, you had a more liberal group begin to slide into Washington. Sanders, who is NOT a Democrat any more than Trump is a Republican is faaaaaaar left of any Democrat on the hill...that isn't "old school Democrat". That was my point. The Republican and Democratic switched places after the 60's....and both have been pulling further right and left since then....with the Republicans simply pulling further right much faster. Never once did I say that Bernie Sanders is far right....LOL But I see where you got that.....from 1 word, a big word mind you. "RIGHT" SHOULD HAVE BEEN "LEFT"....Although it should have been pretty clear from the rest of the post that I was saying he is far more LEFT than "old school Democrats". Neo-Progressive should have been a little bit of a clue. But, I see what led you down that road. ;)

It has been corrected... :)
 
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The failing in this line of thinking is, I think, that it presumes that you can assume another voter's democratic rights are subject to your own interests, and that failure to vote in accordance with your interests ends any further dialog because you have "unfriended" that voter.

While I can see that you might well be angry with someone for voting for a manifesto which promises a negative impact on you, I think it is more helpful in the long term to try to understand their motivations and then to persuade them to change their mind. For instance, the voter might have voted for Trump because:

* He/she didn't approve of the less assertive foreign policy pursued by Obama and promised by Clinton.

* He/she holds socially conservative views which he/she thought Clinton attacked.

* He/she thought the anti-regulatory, protectionist, and tax-cutting economic policies promised by Trump would be beneficial for jobs and/or growth.

* He/she didn't feel that the Washington "establishment" of which Clinton was a key figure represented him/her, and so voted for someone who professed to loathe it.

* He/she believed that Obamacare was expensive and chaotic, and thought that it would be better repealed and replaced.

You might scoff at any of the reasonings above, and for the most part I would join you in arguing that they were misconceived or at least oversimplified. But measured against the supposition that your friend voted for Trump because he or she wanted you to be deprived of healthcare, each seems more plausible.

If we accept that, then we also have to accept that your friend didn't appreciate the consequences of voting Trump for you personally. He or she might have been callous, thoughtless, confused, ignorant, or simply wrong; or he may have had an even more compelling reason to disregard your circumstances in favour of others. In any of these cases I would argue that expressing your hurt and anxiety to your friend and imploring him or her to think more carefully in future may achieve a double benefit of retaining a friend and losing Trump a reelection vote. As it stands, you seem to have lost a friend and potentially to have entrenched a vote for Trump.

Again, I genuinely do sympathise with your circumstances, but in my experience moving someone from the "friend" to "enemy" column is hardly ever beneficial to anyone.

Oh I expressed my "hurt". If you vote for Trump I don't want anything to do with you.

If voting for someone puts a friend's life in jeopardy I would not vote for that person. If you do, you are no friend.

I think you and I just see the world very differently.
 
It doesn't matter to me if you only voted for Trump because he wasn't Hillary or because he promised he could save your old job or for some other reason. Your reason(s) don't excuse the fact that you voted for Trump and that you voted to take away people's health insurance. And that it was a dick thing to do and selfish.
 
It doesn't matter to me if you only voted for Trump because he wasn't Hillary or because he promised he could save your old job or for some other reason. Your reason(s) don't excuse the fact that you voted for Trump and that you voted to take away people's health insurance. And that it was a dick thing to do and selfish.

To their credit Trump lied, he didn't say he was taking it away, only that he was making it better. He just hoped that they wouldn't realize that one person's better was another's nightmare. :(
 
I had some people on my Facebook who proudly and loudly posted status updates in the vein of "If you voted for Hillary, I will unfriend you." Yes, it was that serious for people. Now I know a lot of people who voted for Trump and they're not racist, ugly, or uneducated people in any fashion. They sincerely thought he was about the working middle class and the poor.

Nothing you could've said or showed them would've convinced them otherwise. They were the same ones posting Pro-Trump memes, calling for Hillary to be locked up, echoing the whole repealing of the Affordable Care Act, and now they're very quiet about posting anything in support of the GOP and Trump. The smart ones who fell for his con are too prideful to admit that they were duped. The uneducated and paranoid racist ones will go down with him regardless of what he does.
 
I had some people on my Facebook who proudly and loudly posted status updates in the vein of "If you voted for Hillary, I will unfriend you." Yes, it was that serious for people. Now I know a lot of people who voted for Trump and they're not racist, ugly, or uneducated people in any fashion. They sincerely thought he was about the working middle class and the poor.

Nothing you could've said or showed them would've convinced them otherwise. They were the same ones posting Pro-Trump memes, calling for Hillary to be locked up, echoing the whole repealing of the Affordable Care Act, and now they're very quiet about posting anything in support of the GOP and Trump. The smart ones who fell for his con are too prideful to admit that they were duped. The uneducated and paranoid racist ones will go down with him regardless of what he does.
I wouldn't unfriendly a person for their vote, they have every right. Now if they were preaching a Trump in my face all the time, that I would have a hard time with. I get it that some folks wanted better healthcare, but the man had no plan. Why would you trust a guy who won't tell you how he's going to do it? That should have been a red flag right there. :(
 
Uh....no. I simply stated that I disagree with saying he is "old school democrat", "old school democrats" were pretty much moderate Republicans. With the death of Kennedy, you had a more liberal group begin to slide into Washington. Sanders, who is NOT a Democrat any more than Trump is a Republican is faaaaaaar left of any Democrat on the hill...that isn't "old school Democrat". That was my point. The Republican and Democratic switched places after the 60's....and both have been pulling further right and left since then....with the Republicans simply pulling further right much faster. Never once did I say that Bernie Sanders is far right....LOL But I see where you got that.....from 1 word, a big word mind you. "RIGHT" SHOULD HAVE BEEN "LEFT"....Although it should have been pretty clear from the rest of the post that I was saying he is far more LEFT than "old school Democrats". Neo-Progressive should have been a little bit of a clue. But, I see what led you down that road. ;)

It has been corrected... :)

It was a mistype. Phew. I almost got worried for a sec there.
 
Honestly, I had few Republican friends. But I can tolerate someone voting for a McCain or a Romney. Obviously we are not going to agree on policy. Dubious gun laws and tax cuts are one thing, but I have to draw the line at Trump.
 
So, it sounds like the tax plan, which was planned to be announced today, may not be ready until Fri.

The GOP legislative skills that brought you the AHCA folks.
 
So, it sounds like the tax plan, which was planned to be announced today, may not be ready until Fri.

The GOP legislative skills that brought you the AHCA folks.

...it's out today. Who cares if it was a day late, really. The media made a big deal out of something that didn't need to be a big deal. Wondering what the critiques will be, saw that the mortgage interest rate deduction being lowered is getting some critics. That being said it covers mortgages under $500,000. When I read the New York Times, I saw they quoted a mortgage interest group saying that this will decrease the values of home and discourage home ownership to which I thought isn't that a good thing? Aren't homes extremely expensive right now? Don't we want to avoid another housing bubble crisis?
 
The killing of AMT is rather big. A sort of subtle way to cut taxes to the rich, without explicitly saying they are cutting taxes to the rich. A lot of the language in their cover sheet is there to hide their tax cuts to the rich.

Cutting the State and Local taxes is going to be big, though.

Oh, and cutting student loan interest deduction.
 
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