Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[Marvel united]

Sam is the one who becomes Captain America. Sam is the one who is placed in the position of "being right" against the older man, who they treat as disgruntled. That Sam handles the situation he does, especially after the last two Captain America movies, where Steve shows the proper way to handle a corrupt system is all time bad really. Instead of being helpful, it is actively harmful imo. Add the cherry on the top of Sam absolving world leaders of their intent and every time I think about the show, it somehow gets worse.

This is without getting into how over under baked. How Sam and Bucky aren't even the heart of the show for the majority of it's runtime.

The thing about it, though, is, Isaiah Bradley IS the correct position. This country, this world, would not, will not, will never, accept a Black man taking on that mantle. It's just not happening, and the show never tries to say otherwise. Sam has no counter to what is Isaiah stating the cold hard truth

And I think that because of this, Sam's, um, reasoning for taking up the shield, is kinda weak & kinda brushed over. Because obviously, he has to be Cap by the end of the show, this is obligatory... But there's really no way to challenge what Isaiah said w/out outright denying the reality of being black in this country (and the world tbh).

Personally, for me? I would never do it. Not because I know people would hate for me for it, but because that flag is stained with too much blood. I wouldn't want to become part of that legacy.

 

[MbJ]

As a big Batwoman fan, the ****show that show is is legitimately painful to my soul. It has less respect for it's source material and characters then a Zack Snyder flick. That's impressive.

I've got zero horse in the race I just thought the suit looked cool lol.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The thing about it, though, is, Isaiah Bradley IS the correct position. This country, this world, would not, will not, will never, accept a Black man taking on that mantle. It's just not happening, and the show never tries to say otherwise. Sam has no counter to what is Isaiah stating the cold hard truth

And I think that because of this, Sam's, um, reasoning for taking up the shield, is kinda weak & kinda brushed over. Because obviously, he has to be Cap by the end of the show, this is obligatory... But there's really no way to challenge what Isaiah said w/out outright denying the reality of being black in this country (and the world tbh).

Personally, for me? I would never do it. Not because I know people would hate for me for it, but because that flag is stained with too much blood. I wouldn't want to become part of that legacy.

But that is the inherent issue of the show. It positions it so Sam has to be right, even as he is clearly wrong. Thus the show is one big failure. Especially as it gets tunnel vision near it's conclusion.

The problem isn't being Captain America. Steve was a great symbol as Cap. Representing ideals that way too much of America does not practice, especially it's government and military. Sam turns himself into corporate Captain America, and that is suppose to be the "happy ending". It's ridiculous on so many levels.

Also I disagree on the "they will never accept him" thing. Because the very bad setup, is for that.

 

[Ninjablade]

I won't say TFATWS is trash. I will just say it is trash adjacent. Three seconds of thinking about it, makes it instantly worst. A vacuous trudge through hours of wasted television, for so very few bright spots.

Eh, don't worry I will . The more I've thought about FaTWS and discussed it with others, the less I've liked it. It's really soured me on both of its central characters. They're terrible people.

Also, I call BS on the whole "they would never accept a black man as Captain America" concept. The MCU is not the real world and this is an inherent issue with a lot of different aspects in the show. In the MCU, they took their one military superhero, who is black, and patriotized the f- out of him. So, it becomes a little weird when you have a show set in the same universe where all of a sudden you're trying to tell me the government supposedly cares about the race of its superhero. I'm not say that isn't impossible to achieve, you just have to put in a lot of work to justify and represent that. They didn't though. Instead, it's just hoping you take your understanding of our real world and just apply that to what you're seeing, even though it doesn't apply. That's an issue. I mean, hell, the only person we see that has any issue with Captain America being black in the whole show is Isaiah.

 

[flickchick85]

One day you all will look at Falcon and The Winter Soldier with fresh eyes and be like “Damn, this was pretty okay!”

Between Sebastian Stan’s talented portrayal of a man suffering with PTSD and other mental health problems, coupled with surprisingly well written talks about race and paralleling it with what’s going on today and superheroes, I think the show did fairly well. I love what they did with Isaiah Bradley, a big MCU highlight to me.

Can’t compare it with Superman & Lois though IMO, that’s apples and oranges. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

While I agree with the complaints about the show's racial politics, my main problem with F&TWS stems from it feeling like it exists solely to advertise something else. Sam and Bucky both felt "off" in their characterizations to the point that it felt like they were the way they were on the show because the producers needed to get them from Point A to Point B, and for nothing else. The choices the characters made felt like a result of what the franchise needed them to do, rather than something that came organically out of the characters' development. As such, it felt soulless to me. A cog in a machine, and nothing more (like other lesser MCU installments). As much as I may be able to turn my brain off and maybe enjoy it better in the future, I don't see that particular aspect aging much better. So yes, I agree that putting it next to Superman & Lois is an odd comparison, because that's a show with a beating heart and soul, that clearly loves its lead characters and exists because a group of writers have a story they want to tell specifically with those characters, and not just to get to "the next thing."

 

[DarthSkywalker]

While I agree with the complaints about the show's racial politics, my main problem with F&TWS stems from it feeling like it exists solely to advertise something else. Sam and Bucky both felt "off" in their characterizations to the point that it felt like they were the way they were on the show because the producers needed to get them from Point A to Point B, and for nothing else. The choices the characters made felt like a result of what the franchise needed them to do, rather than something that came organically out of the characters' development. As such, it felt soulless to me. A cog in a machine, and nothing more (like other lesser MCU installments). As much as I may be able to turn my brain off and maybe enjoy it better in the future, I don't see that particular aspect aging much better. So yes, I agree that putting it next to Superman & Lois is an odd comparison, because that's a show with a beating heart and soul, that clearly loves its lead characters and exists because a group of writers have a story they want to tell specifically with those characters, and not just to get to "the next thing."

I 100% agree with this. Any social or political issues I have with the show, the show's biggest issue is how poorly the show is put together. Bucky and Sam are an afterthoughts on their own show, and don't quite line up with their characterization so far. Sam being so aggressive with Bucky, so confrontational, considering what little we know about him (he ran the therapy group for vets and I believe has a degree) makes very little sense. Bucky is presented with an obvious storyline to follow at the beginning of the show, but it is jettisoned after the premiere.

It was an overly long show, with so little purpose. I get they had to mess with the Flagsmashers a bit due to COVID, but even then, it wasn't enough to justify how poorly that storyline played out. By the end of it, it almost feels like they made for the slap on the back for giving Sam the shield. The same studio that produced Black Panther. It's hard to fathom, especially as while I have plenty of issues with a lot of their movies, only Ant-Man and Wasp felt this superfluous on its own or as a part of the bigger MCU. And while I am not a fan of that movie, it had a lot more going for it then this.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I really hope Marvel isn't gonna rush into Secret Wars. If everything going forward is going to revolve around the Multiverse, then that's a pretty steadfast way for me to check out of these films.

Grounded and/or self-contained stories will be virtually impossible in the MCU at that point... Or should i say, "MCM"

I doubt they rush it. It took us 11 years to finish the Infinity Saga, lol. Feige I trust. Now, it may not be as many years before Secret Wars as compared to the Infinity Saga, but we are also getting far more projects annually. So it makes up for that

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

While I agree with the complaints about the show's racial politics, my main problem with F&TWS stems from it feeling like it exists solely to advertise something else. Sam and Bucky both felt "off" in their characterizations to the point that it felt like they were the way they were on the show because the producers needed to get them from Point A to Point B, and for nothing else. The choices the characters made felt like a result of what the franchise needed them to do, rather than something that came organically out of the characters' development. As such, it felt soulless to me. A cog in a machine, and nothing more (like other lesser MCU installments). As much as I may be able to turn my brain off and maybe enjoy it better in the future, I don't see that particular aspect aging much better. So yes, I agree that putting it next to Superman & Lois is an odd comparison, because that's a show with a beating heart and soul, that clearly loves its lead characters and exists because a group of writers have a story they want to tell specifically with those characters, and not just to get to "the next thing."

I see what you mean also about it being plot driven at times, but I personally thought there was substantial character development for both Sam and Bucky. I liked the whole idea of them both having burdens (Bucky with his PTSD, his guilt and Sam also wrestling with himself and deciding what kind of hero he wants to be and the both of them dealing with their grief about Cap) and even though there were some missteps along the way, I think there was a lot of positive progression for both of them at the end of the series. I liked that Bucky was finally able to loosen up and granted some happiness while still atoning and Sam is able to make his own mark in the mantle of Captain America.

But yes, you know I feel you on Superman & Lois. That is a family drama that keeps the family at the heart of its show and finally treats Supes like a three dimensional character. About damn time lol

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

And everyone wants to see Secret Wars, but I'm just over here silently wishing that they give us Inferno down the line too. That would be fun.

 

[The Batman]

Hey guys. Superman and Lois or Falcon and The Winter Soldier?

Neither.

Honestly, some of these recent shows help me further appreciate how good "Daredevil" was. WandaVision, S&L, and F&TWS are OK, but there's much better TV l could be watching instead. It's why I haven't even bothered watching Loki yet. At this point, it looks like yet another MCU thing that gets hyped up as amazing, but is just alright. I'll just wait until the season is over and I have nothing else I really want to see.

 

[Spider-Fan]

And everyone wants to see Secret Wars, but I'm just over here silently wishing that they give us Inferno down the line too. That would be fun.

Why can't we get both?

 

[Spider-Aziz]

F&WS for me. S&L is a show I am quite enjoying. But,

If I heard these initials instead of reading them I'd think you were talking about Saturday Night Live instead of Superman & Lois.

And everyone wants to see Secret Wars, but I'm just over here silently wishing that they give us Inferno down the line too. That would be fun.

Inferno as a comic event has some great moments, some so great moments I'd be disappointed in the adaption because it won't include them in any way shape or form.

I'm thinking exclusively of Spider-Man moments right now, can't remember any Daredevil, Iron Man, Hulk, or Moon Knight moments.

 

[ernesth100]

DD remains the golden standard for superhero tv. It's honestly an unfair performance. I usually don't include it in show matches lol.

Personally it'll be a huge loss off profits to not bring Cox back atleast once. His portrayal is a godsend. I may be overselling it but I'd argue Charlie is to DD as RDJ is to Stark.

 

[Kane52630]

Legion still sits at the top for me. Everything else seems normal by comparison.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Daredevil is still top dog of superhero television. But that said....my opinion of the first episode of Loki is very high, so let's talk when it is over. I want to see how close Loki can come to that. Not expecting Daredevil to be dethroned for me. Especially it has 3 seasons of work for me to enjoy. But I don't think I have enjoyed a single episode of superhero TV as much as I did the first episode of Loki since Daredevil (seasons 1 and 3 especially) and Jessica Jones season 1.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Legion still sits at the top for me. Everything else seems normal by comparison.

That was the only show that made me feel dumb when I watched it. I tapped out in the middle of the first season, but I have always meant to return to it.

 

[Time Captain]

DD remains the golden standard for superhero tv. It's honestly an unfair performance. I usually don't include it in show matches lol.

Personally it'll be a huge loss off profits to not bring Cox back atleast once. His portrayal is a godsend. I may be overselling it but I'd argue Charlie is to DD as RDJ is to Stark.

If Daredevil, The Boys and Legion are the gold standard for superhero television, and that's generally the consensus .. LOKI is the series with the most potential to join that elite group.

And I'd be all for a Daredevil MCU film series, even if it doesn't directly continue any story beats from the Netflix series but retained the same cast. S3 wrapped up the narrative quite well. Bullseye could show up as the full-costumed villain on film and we wouldn't need to revisit his origins.

Vanessa could be killed (like in Into the Spider-verse) and that drives Kingpin could of prison. There are easy ways to do a DD film without requiring the audience to have previously seen the series.

 

[Brother Jack]

That was the only show that made me feel dumb when I watched it. I tapped out in the middle of the first season, but I have always meant to return to it.

The first season is incredible. The second and third seasons get a little too stylized and obfuscated for their own good IMO, but are still very much worth digging into. There's never been another show like it, superhero or not.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Daredevil should be up there with one of the best television shows ever, not just superhero shows. It was incredible at the time and still looks that way after the passage of time, maybe even moreso.

I thought Loki was Thursday for some reason, so I haven't watched it yet.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Loki called me back to Brazil, one of my favorite films. It is like....48hrs, Brazil, and Marvel goodness thrown into a blender. What a mix

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I thought Loki was Thursday for some reason, so I haven't watched it yet.

At least you won't need to wait for reruns. Pleasures of streaming services.


Since we all agree how good and fun Daredevil as a show is I'll talk about the movie instead; I had phone credit piled up for months because I need to keep my service running but don't really use the phone for a lot of calls, so I went to Google Play and found that movie and bought it, though there is the sorrow revelation of me buying the theatrical version cause the more fun version isn't available.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

If that is the best I can say about it, isn't that a pretty damning indictment? I really don't want to talk about the show's take on "race", but let's just say, it is one of my biggest issues. If you answer to a broken system is to fit into the system, clearly you don't know how to combatant the system. They turned Falcon into a "good soldier" and had their version of BLM as terrorists. Terrible. Black Panther was far more effective when it came to discussions of race. Mainly as it did not concern itself with appealing to the part of the country that voted for the Orange man.

If Loki ends up being as good as the premiere suggested, I think Thor will overtake Cap as the "quality" part of the MCU. I'd take Thor, Ragnarok and Loki over the Cap trilogy and the show which only highlight is Zemo.

Black Panther had a similar message. One of the villains was a black radical. One of the supporting heroes was a literal CIA operative. It ended with Tchalla going to UN and talking about working with the system.

 

[Detective Conan]

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Black Panther had a similar message. One of the villains was a black radical. One of the supporting heroes was a literal CIA operative. It ended with Tchalla going to UN and talking about working with the system.

After TFATWS ended, I wrote a rather lengthy write up in here about the difference between it, TWS, Civil War and Black Panther. This is not what I got from Black Panther at all, nor was that it's intention imo.

In short, Black Panther is a call to arms for black Americans who have made it to not abandon their brothers, sisters, and enby siblings. That is not right to leave them to fend for themselves in a system that will never actually help them. It's a rebuke of isolationism and elitism, as displayed by the royal lineage of Wakanda, and how that has shaped Erik Stevens and the Jabari. Wakanda doesn't join any system. It reforms it's own and starts providing for those the system neglects. The movie is very much not subtle about it and it's lack of care of providing a message to non-black folk.

 

[Fosterson]

Black Panther had a similar message. One of the villains was a black radical.

Calling Killmonger a black radical is a little ridiculous. He literally wanted to take over the world by force of arms and establish a Wakandan empire.

However legitimate his grievances were, his ideology was imperialist and based on the twisted notion that invading and colonizing the nations that invaded and colonized Africa would somehow be "justice".

It ended with Tchalla going to UN and talking about working with the system.

I fail to see how trying to foster international cooperation and peaceful coexistance between nations is a bad thing.