Across the Kraven-verse: How Sony Won the Superhero Cinematic Civil War Thread - Part 59

[DarthSkywalker]

I've seen too many DC slates to take anyone in this role at their word by this point. We'll see how it goes. The one thing giving me any hope is everyone else in that writer's room is immensely more interesting as creatives than James Gunn is, but even then it's not much. It's easy to talk big game about creative freedom when doing press announcements, it's another thing when someone comes along and wants to take a character in a direction contrary to your ten year plans or two creatives want to introduce different takes on the same characters or the numerous other problems that come up when you decide all these movies, video games, and TV shows have to co-exist and not step on each other's toes. And what they announced so far is not inspiring a huge amount of interest with me.

Marvel has issues with homogeneity, and I think they could due with letting a number of their films have more distinctive voices, but there's a degree of creative freedom that's going to be sacrificed in this desire for everything must be connected all the time. It's a big reason why, despite (to put it kindly) wildly varying quality, I've really enjoyed the last few years of DC projects. Because Birds of Prey doesn't have to be beholden to Doom Patrol, which doesn't have to be beholden to Harley Quinn, which doesn't have to be beholden to trash like Titans.

If he doesn't want homogeny, what is the point of making a connected universe or another Batman? There is a current Batman doing his own thing. So why do we need another? Because he needs one for his connected, homogenized universe. If this wasn't the case, why did he chase off Patty?

 

[Marvel united]

I've seen too many DC slates to take anyone in this role at their word by this point. We'll see how it goes. The one thing giving me any hope is everyone else in that writer's room is immensely more interesting as creatives than James Gunn is, but even then it's not much. It's easy to talk big game about creative freedom when doing press announcements, it's another thing when someone comes along and wants to take a character in a direction contrary to your ten year plans or two creatives want to introduce different takes on the same characters or the numerous other problems that come up when you decide all these movies, video games, and TV shows have to co-exist and not step on each other's toes. And what they announced so far is not inspiring a huge amount of interest with me.

Marvel has issues with homogeneity, and I think they could due with letting a number of their films have more distinctive voices, but there's a degree of creative freedom that's going to be sacrificed in this desire for everything must be connected all the time. It's a big reason why, despite (to put it kindly) wildly varying quality, I've really enjoyed the last few years of DC projects. Because Birds of Prey doesn't have to be beholden to Doom Patrol, which doesn't have to be beholden to Harley Quinn, which doesn't have to be beholden to trash like Titans.

All fair points. It's a difficult balance to strike, creative freedom vs interconnectivity, but I don't think it's impossible. All of these films shouldn't have to feel like they exist in the same world. They should all be stylistically, and tonally completely different from each other. That's true diversity.

However Gunn chooses to do it, he did get Mangold on Swamp Thing, so he must be doing something* right.

I can't help but be excited at the potential of his universe. I really like the slate

 

[DarthSkywalker]

All fair points. It's a difficult balance to strike, creative freedom vs interconnectivity, but I don't think it's impossible. All of these films shouldn't have to feel like they exist in the same world. They should all be stylistically, and tonally completely different from each other. That's true diversity.

However Gunn chooses to do it, he did get Mangold on Swamp Thing, so he must be doing something* right.

I can't help but be excited at the potential of his universe. I really like the slate

That's superficial diversity, that leads to what we got with the DCEU. Character and story should decide style and tone, not the need to be "different".

Diversity of filmmaking can happen within reason of a house style or tone. Over a decade, one director produced four John Wick films of a similar style and tone, which are distinct. A revenge movie, a crime drama, an East Asia inspired action flick, a spaghetti western. Star Wars in known for this. I'd even argue there are times it did happen within the MCU. The problem is, people get upset about it, because it delivers films not made for larger public consumption, because being distinct often leads to a dislike from a large part of the audience. Love and Thunder and Multiverse of Madness are good examples of this.

This is why Gunn's answer to "full freedom" with The Suicide Squad was taking his GotG flicks, and just adding superficial aspects of Deadpool. Because he knows people have to actually watch it. Sadly he learned that people don't actually like unfiltered Gunn, as that flick failed, spectularly. It was Marvel's house style that got him his new job in the first place.

 

[Sithborg]

Nah, TSS wasn't about adding aspects of Deadpool. It was about adding all of Gunn's Troma sensibilities he could that PG 13 prevents him from normally.

Star Wars on Disney+ shows what happens when you have an executive creative position. I love Filoni, but you can damn well tell where his fingers in.

 

[Mjolnir Reborn]

Well, discounting past failures, DC is objectively in a better position to do that right now, because they're rebooting the DCEU wholesale. A reboot gives Gunn a clean slate, and an opportunity to redefine the rules of his universe, and address audience concern.

The MCU is not in a position to do this, because all of their projects are already in the pipeline, scripts already written, many already shooting. The problems that led to Quantumania, and later Shazam (by proxy), to flop, are not going to suddenly go away.

And that problem, is readily identifiable as formulaic, slop top filmmaking. Audiences are tired of the McDonald's equivalent of CBMs.

It doesn't make any sense to discount the past failures. Gunn may have a clean slate when it comes to making the films but it won't be a clean slate with the audience. They still remember the DCEU and their views of the characters will be affected by that. Even the damaged DCEU could have worked if they just started making better films, which they showed since they had a few hits in there..

Marvel has already changed some of their schedule, so they can change things even in that regard, and the whole point of what I showed was that they aren't in nearly as bad of a position as DC, they just need to make their films better in the eyes of the audiences. The problems that led to Quantumania in terms of audience reception is mainly just that - that they made a film that people didn't consider to be good. The underlying problems like that they spend more money on it doesn't relate to the audience, that's just about their own finances.

No, the audience isn't tired of those kind of films at all. They just happened to not like a few of them but, as I showed you, some performed better than their pre-pandemic predecessors so it's completely nonsensical to claim that the interest isn't there. They still have to deliver quality to maintain it though, but it's a bit amusing when some people act like the sky is falling because the MCU has had some duds now after 32 films.

All of these projects are not necessarily comparable to each other beyond surface. The answer to your question lies in the context.

No Way Home was always going to be a huge success, regardless of quality. It was carried by hype, and nostalgia for movies that have nothing to do with the MCU; the culmination of 20 years of cinematic history. People weren't hyped becuz it was an MCU film, they were hyped because Tobey was back.

Similarly, MOM despite a terrible script, rode the contrails of NWH's success. People went into the movie expecting a similar experience (with nostalgia), didn't get that, and because the script was so bad, the movie had nothing else of value to offer. Audiences left the film disappointed-- this is objectively a fact.

That's why the movie harbors one of the MCU's worst cinemascores
Doctor Strange 2 Gains Second-Lowest MCU CinemaScore Grade

And also one of it's worst second weekend drops

'Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness' Suffers Historic MCU Box Office Drop In Second Opening Weekend

Eventually, the movie was able to leg out to 900m due to the strength of the MCU's brand. Sure, in a vacuum, stripped of overaching context, it's a success. But applied context, it was a warning sign of the MCU's forthcoming decline....

Which we are now seeing.

NWH had a lot going for it but your analysis is far too simplistic to be accurate. You don't reach 1.9 billion by just including a bit of nostalgia, especially since audience never go to miss Spider-Man as a character like Star Wars fans had been kept longing. You have to deliver a film that makes people enjoy their experience and both come back again and spread the word. NWH is the 11th best reviewed superhero film of all time on RT (and the best reviewed Spider-Man film) and it got an A+ cinemascore so they clearly managed to do that even when looking beyond the BO.

It's becoming quite clear that you're omitting these kind of details when they go against your opinion but use them when they align. So you just use the cinemascore to try to make something really negative out of a film improving 40% from it's predecessor and making $956 million, despite not being seen as the most well made film. That actually says more positive about general interest than if it had increased like that with a universally loved film so again, the audiences are clearly not tired of this in a conceptual sense.

Yes, everything rides the success, or failure, of what came before. That's how franchises work. It even goes outside it as even the failed DCEU was still helped by the success of the MCU, as it created more superhero interest. It's also why the DCEU will continue to affect the new films when they use the same characters as the audience will inevitably connect those experiences.

You can of course increase the effect it has though, which is what Marvel has done by making the MCU feel like the films are part of the same greater whole. If you strive away from that you may possibly lower the synergistic effect. A Superman film may not be all that much of a help to a Swamp Thing horror film.

 

[MarvelFan]

Yeah it's a liitle bit hyperbole for some to say that "Marvel's era is over! Now, it's DC's turn!!!"

While in reality, like I already said a few days ago, the pressure that James Gunn has to face here is even bigger than Marvel's. He doesn't have that much clean slate on his hands as some thinks he is, as others already pointed out that he has to fight the stigma of old toxic DCEU in the mind of the audiences.

James Gunn only have one shot here for his Superman movie. The movie HAS to really deliver or else DC brand will be tarnished forever.

 

[Spider-Fan]

James Gunn got Mangold for Swamp Thing, that's true. But I have no idea of Swamp Thing will end up cancelled at this point, or if it will end up being profitable. I am excited for that and hope it happens, but Swamp Thing is also a niche character. I would be surprised if Swamp Thing does any better than Black Adam, honestly

 

[MarvelFan]

Norton back as a variant Bruce, going toe-to-toe with Ruffalo's Banner?

We can only dream

hot take: I always like and prefer Edward Norton's Banner more than Ruffalo's.

I like Ruffalo in Avengers 1, and to lesser extent,AoU. But after that...it's hard to imagine that this is the same character from that early Incredible Hulk's days. Haha.

Btw...I loved Incredible Hulk. Haha.

 

[Babillygunn]

Hobgoblin would be fun because you can play that as a "Whodunit" murder mystery like Ghostface in Scream.

I'd be open to taking liberties and not having it necessarily be Roderick Kingsley when they do adapt Hobby.

I want a Scooby Doo moment where Hobgoblin has his mask pulled off to reveal:

 

[Babillygunn]

James Gunn got Mangold for Swamp Thing, that's true. But I have no idea of Swamp Thing will end up cancelled at this point, or if it will end up being profitable. I am excited for that and hope it happens, but Swamp Thing is also a niche character. I would be surprised if Swamp Thing does any better than Black Adam, honestly

Swamp Thing has such an opportunity but there’s a danger in it. It could be a great DC horror film. The characters are so rich and just amazing. Swamp Thing has had some great writers like Len Wein and Alan Moore who have given the character such a rich history. The potential is there for it to be something like we have never seen before. Something that captures people’s attention and is a big draw. Or it could be DC’s version of New Mutants. I’d hope with Mangold that won’t be the case.

hot take: I always like and prefer Edward Norton's Banner more than Ruffalo's.

I’m right there with you. Incredible Hulk is actually one of my favorite movies in the MCU and in my opinion Norton was great in it.

 

[Detective Conan]

James Gunn got Mangold for Swamp Thing, that's true. But I have no idea of Swamp Thing will end up cancelled at this point, or if it will end up being profitable. I am excited for that and hope it happens, but Swamp Thing is also a niche character. I would be surprised if Swamp Thing does any better than Black Adam, honestly

I expect Swamp Thing would be much cheaper, or relatively inexpensive to make compared to Black Adam(which apparently cost over 200 million to make) so it wouldn’t need to make as much as that needed to make to be successful. It should be fair you profitable under a moderate budget but I don’t even think there needs to be a Swamp Thing movie.

 

[Babillygunn]

I don’t even think there needs to be a Swamp Thing movie.

Yeah. We need more Batman movies. (Sarcasm)

Honestly, if I had my druthers we would get a Swamp Thing season 2. That show was amazing. But I certainly want more Swamp Thing, whatever form it takes.

 

[Detective Conan]

I dont think we're getting a new MCU Norman in the main MCU, honestly. I think that's part of why they used Dafoe here. I think we will see Kingpin occupy the evil rich guy role for the street level heroes, including Spider-Man

They pretty much spelled it out to you that there is no Norman native to the MCU when Dafoe Norman flat-out states that his corporation(Oscorp) doesn’t even exist in that reality.

 

[Detective Conan]

Yeah. We need more Batman movies. (Sarcasm)

Honestly, if I had my druthers we would get a Swamp Thing season 2. That show was amazing. But I certainly want more Swamp Thing, whatever form it takes.

That’s what I want as well. I think the Swamp Thing show was perfection, and I don’t see any movie topping that.

 

[Iceman]

hot take: I always like and prefer Edward Norton's Banner more than Ruffalo's.

I like Ruffalo in Avengers 1, and to lesser extent,AoU. But after that...it's hard to imagine that this is the same character from that early Incredible Hulk's days. Haha.

Btw...I loved Incredible Hulk. Haha.

Don’t think it’s that much of a hot take. Ruffalo started really well but they haven’t given him decent material since. They’ve taken storylines away from him and made parts of them happen offscreen. I like seeing his personality within Professor Hulk but his Banner material has been rubbish for a while.

 

[Drizzle]

Ranking the X-Men flicks (because I'm bored):

1. Logan

2. Deadpool
3. The Wolverine
4. First Class

5. Deadpool 2
6. Days of Future Past
7. New Mutants
8. X-Men United
9. X-Men
10. Dark Phoenix
11. Origins
12. Last Stand
13. Apocalypse

Is it that time of the fiscal quarter where this thread gets taken over by FoX-Men? I'll play!

1. Logan
2. Days of Future Past
3. First Class
4. Deadpool
5. X2
6. The Wolverine
7. Deadpool 2
8. X-Men
9. The Last Stand
10. Apocalypse
11. New Mutants
12. Origins: Wolverine
13. Dark Phoenix

The Last Stand is more or less fine now that DOFP retconned it.

 

[Detective Conan]

Sure, but the question therein lies will it be Momoa’s Aquaman or will it be another actor as the DCU Aqauman? The box office/critical/audience reception to Aqauman 2 will give us an answer to this question.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I would go:

Days of Future Past
Logan
First Class
Deadpool
Deadpool 2
The Wolverine
X2
X-Men
The Last Stand
New Mutants
Dark Phoenix
Apocalypse
Origins: Wolverine

 

[BoredGuy]

I'm a sucker:

Logan
X2
Deadpool
X-Men
DOFP
Deadpool 2
The Wolverine
X3
New Mutants

First Ass
Eggporkalypse
Dark Phoenix 2 Electric Bugaloo
That other Wolverine movie

 

[Gothamsknight]

Ranking the X-Men flicks (because I'm bored):

1. Logan

2. Deadpool
3. The Wolverine
4. First Class

5. Deadpool 2
6. Days of Future Past
7. New Mutants
8. X-Men United
9. X-Men
10. Dark Phoenix
11. Origins
12. Last Stand
13. Apocalypse

Logan
X2:X-Men United
Days of Future Past
The Wolverine
X-Men
Deadpool
First Class
Deadpool 2
The Last Stand
The New Mutants
Origins
Apocalypse
Dark Phoenix

 

[Iceman]

Sure, but the question therein lies will it be Momoa’s Aquaman or will it be another actor as the DCU Aqauman? The box office/critical/audience reception to Aqauman 2 will give us an answer to this question.

He will be playing Lobaquaman. Kind of got a ring to it.

 

[The Caped Knight]

Ranking the X-Men flicks (because I'm bored):

1. Logan

2. Deadpool
3. The Wolverine
4. First Class

5. Deadpool 2
6. Days of Future Past
7. New Mutants
8. X-Men United
9. X-Men
10. Dark Phoenix
11. Origins
12. Last Stand
13. Apocalypse

1. Logan
2. X-Men : Days of Future Past
3. X-Men United
4. X-Men : First Class
5. X-Men
6. Deadpool
7. The Wolverine
8. Deadpool 2
9. X-Men origins : Wolverine
10. New Mutants
11. X3 : The Last Stand
12. X-men: Apocalypse
13. Dark Phoenix

 

[Drizzle]

I'm a sucker:

Logan
X2
Deadpool
X-Men
DOFP
Deadpool 2
The Wolverine
X3
New Mutants

First Ass
Eggporkalypse
Dark Phoenix 2 Electric Bugaloo
That other Wolverine movie

 

[Erzengel]

I want to keep DOFP first but X-Men: The Mystique Saga just really hasn't aged well with me.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Another reason why this multiverse stuff is going to be hokey after a while. It’s like Holland already met one variant of Gobby, so clearly he will automatically know a 616 Norman Osborn is bad news which means he’ll have no reason to befriend a 616 Harry.

But we’ll see I guess.

^ This. A new Green Goblin would unfortunately feel redundant after they already blew their nostalgia-fueled load during NWH.