Batgirl 'Batgirl' movie? - Part 1

[mclay18]

Not going to touch the

I mean, it seems like people just assumed that BATGIRL and NIGHTWING were magically going to happen first, despite the fact that we heard development news about THE BATMAN long before these projects were ever on the radar.

That's the thing about projects in development. If the right script and director come together, it can go into production quickly. That's why the initial excitement about Batgirl surfaced because Whedon is a fast writer and helmed two well-regarded $1 billion blockbusters.

Wonder Woman took almost two decades to come together, but once Warners got Patty Jenkins on board, the film went into production seven months after she signed on.

 

[Juan1193]

They've got to first get their best characters right before they can't start doing obscure characters.

I don't understand this logic. If a character has potential and can make the company money, plus fits the already established continuity, then who cares if the character is "obscure". Besides there are calls for more diverse characters in Superhero movies and many of DC's minority characters are "obscure". Should they not get an opportunity because of some fan invented "A-Z list categories"?

For the record, I think DC's obscure heroes are far more appealing and relatable than their icons!

 

[jmc]

I don't understand this logic. If a character has potential and can make the company money, plus fits the already established continuity, then who cares if the character is "obscure". Besides there are calls for more diverse characters in Superhero movies and many of DC's minority characters are "obscure". Should they not get an opportunity because of some fan invented "A-Z list categories"?

For the record, I think DC's obscure heroes are far more appealing and relatable than their icons!

In what world is it a good business decision to use a secondary, little known version of a character over the most prominent and widely known version of said character? Let's be 100% honest with ourselves here. No-one knows who Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown is.

 

[batdude]

I don't understand this logic. If a character has potential and can make the company money, plus fits the already established continuity, then who cares if the character is "obscure". Besides there are calls for more diverse characters in Superhero movies and many of DC's minority characters are "obscure". Should they not get an opportunity because of some fan invented "A-Z list categories"?

For the record, I think DC's obscure heroes are far more appealing and relatable than their icons!

Well, if Marvel bought that logic DC is using, we would not have two Guardians of the Galaxy movies.

 

[Juan1193]

In what world is it a good business decision to use a secondary, little known version of a character over the most prominent and widely known version of said character? Let's be 100% honest with ourselves here. No-one knows who Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown is.

Nobody knew who Black Panther was. Or who the Guardians of the Galaxy were. Or that Scott Lang isn't the main/first Ant-Man... Same with Dr Strange. Iron-Man and Thor weren't household names...etc. We live in a world where GotG and Avengers out grossed JL, Black Panther outgrossed Batman and Wonder Woman, and Dr Strange out grossed Superman. Shazam is getting his own movie! Names mean nothing in the modern age!

For arguments sake though, Cassandra may not be a household name, but her story allows for more pathos, a character to root for, interesting drama and better action. There's also the added bonus of diversity, which is something Barbara doesn't add, unless she's Oracle of course.

 

[jmc]

Nobody knew who Black Panther was. Or who the Guardians of the Galaxy were. Or that Scott Lang isn't the main/first Ant-Man... Same with Dr Strange. Iron-Man and Thor weren't household names...etc. We live in a world where GotG and Avengers out grossed JL, Black Panther outgrossed Batman and Wonder Woman, and Dr Strange out grossed Superman. Shazam is getting his own movie! Names mean nothing in the modern age!

For arguments sake though, Cassandra may not be a household name, but her story allows for more pathos, a character to root for, interesting drama and better action. There's also the added bonus of diversity, which is something Barbara doesn't add, unless she's Oracle of course.

Batgirl is different and you know it. Babs has been a prominent figure in the Bat mythology for nearly 50 years now, she has a look that is familiar to everyone across multiple mediums and is known by a large chunk of people as being Commissioner Gordon's daughter. To put it bluntly, Barbara Gordon is a far more recognisable figure, and I would argue a far more iconic character than what Black Panther, Guardians, Dr Strange or Ant Man ever were until recently. The only argument being put forward for Cain seems to be her possibly having a more interesting story and for diversity reasons, which to me is a weak case for favouring her over Barbara.

 

[Boy Scout]

No offense, but this isn't an argument at all.

That explains the wall of text.

1. You've got to establish more backstory...

How complicated do you think it would be to establish that there used to be another Batgirl? Because, personally, I think a flashback or a few lines of dialogue would do the trick, especially if that information was provided within the wider of context of explaining where the current Batgirl came from and what her deal is.

In other words, it wouldn’t be at all difficult to do.

If you make a story about Batman taking in a mute girl and making her his sidekick, what you end up with is a de facto Batman movie.

Not at all. In any case, I would expect Batman to play somewhat of a supporting role in one of his sidekicks’ movies regardless.

2. Her being both mute and masked for a large portion of the movie prevents a significant challenge to the viewers getting attached to her.

Why do you all keep using Cassandra as the example? I don’t think I ever singled her out.

Anyway: it would definitely be tricky, but far from impossible to accomplish. Cassandra is capable of communication. I think emphasizing how she chooses to communicate and who she chooses to communicate with can reveal just as much about her as a spoken conversation.

Her supporting cast would also be able to naturally provide insight, particularly if at least some of them are written to struggle with getting to know someone who doesn’t speak. Conversations with and about her would be essential in allowing the audience to connect with her, instead of only sympathizing with her.

Sign language is an option.

Lastly: her silence and costume could easily be played as a strength under the right circumstances. Look no further than Mystique to see how positively audiences can respond to badass women who don’t need to utter a word to get the job done.

Since Cassandra's parents are a couple of a******s, the only way forward that I see is to introduce a teenage boy to act as an audience cypher, get drawn into everything, learn what's going on from the characters in the know, and fall in love with Cassandra (and vice versa). And you've got to balance it right so that it's still her movie, and she has to be a strong enough actress to pull it off.

Personally, I’d use either the Batfamily or an unrelated female companion.

3. Selling a movie isn't just a matter of making a good movie.

The same is true of literally any movie.

Studios make movies based on existing properties because the existence of a fanbase and general awareness make it easier to get people to watch.

Which is why they’d call the movie Batgirl and not Cassandra.

I think you’re overestimating Barabara’s popularity. Not Batgirl’s; Barbara’s. I’ve said it before, but I’d be willing to bet that most people don’t know “classic Batgirl’s” first and last name. They certainly aren’t so enarmored with her that the studio couldn’t replace her if they felt like it.

No. If you try to do a lay-up in basketball and miss, you don't just give up because you'll never make a lay-up, but you also don't attempt three pointers on the basis that it makes no difference. Some shots are harder than others.

I was being sarcastic.

Stephanie would actually be easier to pull off than Cassandra, although I still wouldn't say it's the easiest way forward.

I don’t think anyone’s said that of Stephanie or Cassandra.

However, if they jump over Barbara to do some other Batgirl, and it doesn't pan out, do they go back and try to do a prequel, knowing that if they ever do get Justice League happening she's out of the picture?

1) You’d be in the same position if a movie with Barbara as the star didn’t do well. The scenario you’ve presented isn’t exclusive to her successors.

2) Who’s watching a Justice League movie for Batgirl?

 

[Juan1193]

Batgirl is different and you know it. Babs has been a prominent figure in the Bat mythology for nearly 50 years now, she has a look that is familiar to everyone across multiple mediums and is known by a large chunk of people as being Commissioner Gordon's daughter. To put it bluntly, Barbara Gordon is a far more recognisable figure, and I would argue a far more iconic character than what Black Panther, Guardians, Dr Strange or Ant Man ever were until recently.

Your claim was "In what world is it a good business decision to use a secondary, little known version of a character over the most prominent and widely known version of said character? ". I gave you reasons why, and offered examples of DC's biggest competitor thriving off of telling stories with lesser known characters, not to mention beating DC's icons at the box office with said characters! Yet you go back to the same "but she's recognizable' or "she's the iconic version". That doesn't matter at all in today's market!

The only argument being put forward for Cain seems to be her possibly having a more interesting story and for diversity reasons, which to me is a weak case for favouring her over Barbara.

That's ironic! Considering the only argument for going with Babs as Batgirl is that she's apparently "recognizable". At least with Cass there's legit reasons (ie great story potential, better fight scenes, appeal to Asian audiences and the crowd pleading for more diverse heroes...etc).

If you're so concerned with the audience not knowing Cass then just have her appear in the Batman solo. From there she can spinoff into her own film, you know, like an actual Batgirl film should be doing! Problem solved.

 

[Fincher]

That explains the wall of text.

I meant that "Your argument is ridiculous" is a non-argument.

I think you’re overestimating Barabara’s popularity. Not Batgirl’s; Barbara’s. I’ve said it before, but I’d be willing to bet that most people don’t know “classic Batgirl’s” first and last name. They certainly aren’t so enarmored with her that the studio couldn’t replace her if they felt like it.

And I went over this already, that selling your movie on an established character like "Batgirl" means selling it on what people do know of that character. The more you change, the less the name means, and the more you need to win audiences over the way you'd need to win them over with an original character. Using Stephanie might not matter as much since she's closer to the Batgirl audiences are familiar with, but Cassandra changes it up drastically, so even if they don't know she has the wrong name, they'll still know she's different.

I don’t think anyone’s said that of Stephanie or Cassandra.

That they would be the easiest way forward? If you agree that they're not, then I'm not sure what we're even arguing over.

1) You’d be in the same position if a movie with Barbara as the star didn’t do well. The scenario you’ve presented isn’t exclusive to her successors.

If Barbara fails, you can have her be disabled and become Oracle and move on to some other Batgirl.

2) Who’s watching a Justice League movie for Batgirl?

If the movie(s) are a hit, then people who like it/them. Who's watching Infinity War for Black Panther?

 

[The Guard]

That's the thing about projects in development. If the right script and director come together, it can go into production quickly. That's why the initial excitement about Batgirl surfaced because Whedon is a fast writer and helmed two well-regarded $1 billion blockbusters.

I would think the excitement about Batgirl was more about the fact that there was going to be a movier about Batgirl in development...not the timeframe it was going to happen in.

Wonder Woman took almost two decades to come together, but once Warners got Patty Jenkins on board, the film went into production seven months after she signed on.

WONDER WOMAN would have gone into production with whichever director signed on. WB wanted to release it in a specific timeframe, around BVS and JUSTICE LEAGUE. It had been development for a LONG time, but its inclusion in the DCEU was given consideration.

BATGIRL, to the best of our knowledge, has not been in development for a long time, even if it's a property they would like to make.

Also, if the goal is to use the character of Batman to boost this film's popularity (Batgirl, is after all, an extension of Batman), why release BATGIRL before the highly touted new Batman film by an acclaimed director? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems unlikely that it would have been out within the next few years even with Whedon attached. Despite all the whining about "rushed" projects, these projects tend to be in development for some time before going into actual production.

 

[mclay18]

WONDER WOMAN would have gone into production with whichever director signed on. WB wanted to release it in a specific timeframe, around BVS and JUSTICE LEAGUE. It had been development for a LONG time, but its inclusion in the DCEU was given consideration.

BATGIRL, to the best of our knowledge, has not been in development for a long time, even if it's a property they would like to make.

Also, if the goal is to use the character of Batman to boost this film's popularity (Batgirl, is after all, an extension of Batman), why release BATGIRL before the highly touted new Batman film by an acclaimed director? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems unlikely that it would have been out within the next few years even with Whedon attached. Despite all the whining about "rushed" projects, these projects tend to be in development for some time before going into actual production.

True about WB wanting WW out by a specific date, but they should be lucky and thankful they got Jenkins, who wanted to do an origin story AND was on the same wavelength story-wise.

And as for the expectations that Batgirl be out before Reeves' own Batman film... I don't know. It seems like, with the flux that WB is in regarding their Bat-properties... they're not sure where to go. It seems like that Todd Phillips origin Joker story is inching closer to production than Reeves' film, but only time will tell.

 

[jmc]

Your claim was "In what world is it a good business decision to use a secondary, little known version of a character over the most prominent and widely known version of said character? ". I gave you reasons why, and offered examples of DC's biggest competitor thriving off of telling stories with lesser known characters, not to mention beating DC's icons at the box office with said characters! Yet you go back to the same "but she's recognizable' or "she's the iconic version". That doesn't matter at all in today's market!

Because Marvel's characters were nobody's. Clean slates that's no-one knew about. They had to introduce these characters and build them up because no-one knew anything about them. Batgirl isn't nobody relative to those characters and to claim otherwise is being dishonest. Whether you like it or no people have an idea about who Batgirl is and what she looks like, this was never the case for Dr Strange, Black Panther, etc.

That's ironic! Considering the only argument for going with Babs as Batgirl is that she's apparently "recognizable". At least with Cass there's legit reasons (ie great story potential, better fight scenes, appeal to Asian audiences and the crowd pleading for more diverse heroes...etc).

If you're so concerned with the audience not knowing Cass then just have her appear in the Batman solo. From there she can spinoff into her own film, you know, like an actual Batgirl film should be doing! Problem solved.

The most ridiculous statement here is that the story and the fight scenes for Cassandra would be superior to Barbara's. This is nonsense, a story can be well crafted for any character. The only other reason you've given is diversity, which in all honesty I don't feel is a good enough reason to prioritise Cain over Gordon. The facts are Barbara's place as Batgirl in the Bat mythology trumps both Cain and Brown combined, she deserves her shot at a solo film far more than either of those two characters.

EDIt: I'll just add this. I don't have an issue with either Cain or Brown or however becoming Batgirl in a later movie, especially if they were to adapt a Killing Joke style storyline where Barbara becomes paralysed in a sequel, or subsequent DC film. But the first one to get a solo film however has to be Barbara IMO, because yes, she is the most iconic Batgirl and the one people associate with the character. She's the one it makes the most sense to start with. They're free to change it up in the films that follow.

 

[Juan1193]

Because Marvel's characters were nobody's. Clean slates that's no-one knew about. They had to introduce these characters and build them up because no-one knew anything about them. Batgirl isn't nobody relative to those characters and to claim otherwise is being dishonest. Whether you like it or no people have an idea about who Batgirl is and what she looks like, this was never the case for Dr Strange, Black Panther, etc.

Like I said before, that seems to be the only reason to go with Barbara first. It's certainly the only reason Babs fans seem to be able to come up with anyway. You can definitely work around this by explaining that Cass is taking up the mantle Babs left behind, and introduce her in the solo Batman flick. That works because we have an older Batman, Dick is Nightwing, and Jason is dead. Plus Barbara has Oracle to fall back on, which she was far more interesting as anyway.

The most ridiculous statement here is that the story and the fight scenes for Cassandra would be superior to Barbara's. This is nonsense, a story can be well crafted for any character. The only other reason you've given is diversity, which in all honesty I don't feel is a good enough reason to prioritise Cain over Gordon. The facts are Barbara's place as Batgirl in the Bat mythology trumps both Cain and Brown combined, she deserves her shot at a solo film far more than either of those two characters.

1)The fight scenes would be better because Cassandra has trained her entire life, with some of the world's deadliest assassins (Lady Shiva, David Cain) no less, and is an equal to Batman. If you try and do the same type of fight scenes with Barbara as with Cassandra, it'll come off as a Mary Sue trope because she doesn't have the same upbringing (plus she already has other exceptional skills).

2)Cassandra has the superior stories as Batgirl, ergo better source material for a movie. Anyone who has read both Cassandra's solo series and Barbara's would tell you the same. This is pretty much a given because the story of overcoming abuse, disabilities, parent expectations, and rising above it all to become a person who helps the helpless ,aka a hero, is extremely powerful and inspirational.

3)Diversity is a valid and strong point. By the time a hypothetical Batgirl film is released there will have already been two (or 3) Wonder Woman films, Captain Marvel, Black Widow, Silver & Black, and maybe even Kitty Pryde and X-23 films ,since they're in development too. A Babs girl film wouldn't be anything special anymore.

EdIt: I'll just add this. I don't have an issue with either Cain or Brown or however becoming Batgirl in a later movie, especially if they were to adapt a Killing Joke style storyline where Barbara becomes paralysed in a sequel, or subsequent DC film. But the first one to get a solo film however has to be Barbara IMO, because yes, she is the most iconic Batgirl and the one people associate with the character. She's the one it makes the most sense to start with. They're free to change it up in the films that follow.

I'm sure Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne fans felt the same way with Ant-Man and Wasp, but Marvel made it work. DC can too.

Anyway I don't care about a Batgirl film, but IMO, with how things are currently set up, and from my experience with comics, DC should go with Cassandra as Batgirl and Barbara as Oracle. Cassandra is the best Batgirl and Barbara had all her development and interesting storylines as Oracle.

PS: OmegaBat, Nightwing's true love is Starfire not Barbara Gordon.

 

[Omegabat]

Pot calling kettle black? Well if that isn't just ironic. Barbara wouldn't even have a solo title right now if it wasn't for Cassandra Cain proving the Batgirl name could sell! For the record none of the Barbara Batgirl titles have lasted as long or sold as well as Cassandra's! A big reason for that, is that she's just not all that interesting as Batgirl, but she is as Oracle.

And I'll go one further, if your "preferred" character has to have her successors completely buried and embargoed by management, to exist, then maybe she's not worth bothering with either.

Making up your own facts now are we.

Cassandra Cain has NOTHING going for her outside of the Batgirl mantle. Babs has sold comics without being Batgirl while Cass has not thats an actual fact.

Cass didn't prove squat, she's a tag along with the other 90's rejects in Detective Comics currently riding on Batman's coaattails. Her book was the least successful of her era even losing out to Azrael. Every single book from the 90's Bat family outlasted Cass. Babs book from the New 52 outlasted Robin, Nightwing, Grayson, Batman and Robin, Batman Inc, Batman the Dark Knight etc. It was only cancelled because it was relaunched with Rebirth.
If you're going to play this silly game then Cassandra's second book flopped with 6 issues while Babs is on 20 as of today. So go with what's more relevant instead of cherrypicking what suits you. Cass was only interesting when she was riding the coaattails of the mantle without it she's a nobody.

Difference is that Babs fans didn't ask for Cass and Steph to be benched. DC did it and frankly its their choice. Cass fans just want Babs to be paralyzed but as history has proven Oracle is no guarantee that there will be another Batgirl in mainstream media.

I'm getting tired of this tedious debate that is devoid of any facts.
Babs crushes the other Batgirls in terms of mainstream use and recognition, that's fact.
Babs has been Batgirl in the comics longer than Cass and Steph, that's fact.
Batgirl Year One with Babs is the definitive Batgirl story, that's fact.
There are more Batgirl comics starring Babs than both Cass and Steph put together just based on the Post Killing Joke era. That's fact.
Babs is directly related to not just one but two primary Batman supporting characters, that's fact.
Your only defense for Cass is:
That she's more interesting which is like YOUR opinion.
That being a D lister entitles her to special treatment LOL. But like I mentioned why stop at Cass then? Why not make Eradicator the new Superman , JPV the new Batman and call it a day. I mean D listers are special right.
And that because Marvel made films with D listers even though you blatantly ignore the fact that:
Marvel makes good films period even when they used Spider-Man while DCEU barely does.
Batgirl is not a D lister to begin with.
If they flunk with Babs they can rebound with Oracle and shocker Cass and Steph
If they flunk with Cass the damage will be catastrophic not just to the character of Cass but to the perception of Batgirl due to the nature of the Cass character. From stereotypes to rape to abuse Cass is a powder keg.

 

[Omegabat]

With all due respect: I don’t have time to engage with you if you’re going to be obtuse.



I obviously disagree.



Pretty sure I addressed the bulk of this already. I’m not interested in repeating myself over and over, especially not on this topic.



This is what I’m talking about. If you’re going to respond to things I never wrote, your time would be better served arguing with someone else.

I dont have time to engage someone pig headed either, no offense intended.

Obviously

And it was counter addressed

You stated that they can change things around to make Cass acceptable as if they cant tweak Babs or any other character either.

 

[jmc]

Like I said before, that seems to be the only reason to go with Barbara first. It's certainly the only reason Babs fans seem to be able to come up with anyway. You can definitely work around this by explaining that Cass is taking up the mantle Babs left behind, and introduce her in the solo Batman flick. That works because we have an older Batman, Dick is Nightwing, and Jason is dead. Plus Barbara has Oracle to fall back on, which she was far more interesting as anyway.



1)The fight scenes would be better because Cassandra has trained her entire life, with some of the world's deadliest assassins (Lady Shiva, David Cain) no less, and is an equal to Batman. If you try and do the same type of fight scenes with Barbara as with Cassandra, it'll come off as a Mary Sue trope because she doesn't have the same upbringing (plus she already has other exceptional skills).

2)Cassandra has the superior stories as Batgirl, ergo better source material for a movie. Anyone who has read both Cassandra's solo series and Barbara's would tell you the same. This is pretty much a given because the story of overcoming abuse, disabilities, parent expectations, and rising above it all to become a person who helps the helpless ,aka a hero, is extremely powerful and inspirational.

3)Diversity is a valid and strong point. By the time a hypothetical Batgirl film is released there will have already been two (or 3) Wonder Woman films, Captain Marvel, Black Widow, Silver & Black, and maybe even Kitty Pryde and X-23 films ,since they're in development too. A Babs girl film wouldn't be anything special anymore.



I'm sure Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne fans felt the same way with Ant-Man and Wasp, but Marvel made it work. DC can too.

Anyway I don't care about a Batgirl film, but IMO, with how things are currently set up, and from my experience with comics, DC should go with Cassandra as Batgirl and Barbara as Oracle. Cassandra is the best Batgirl and Barbara had all her development and interesting storylines as Oracle.

PS: OmegaBat, Nightwing's true love is Starfire not Barbara Gordon.

You're trying to compare an apple to oranges situation with Ant-Man and Batgirl. The reality is, I've pointed out to you already, that it didn't matter in Marvel's case because ultimately Ant-Man for all intense and purposes was as close as you get to an original character for the public. Batgirl isn't in the same situation, and to claim otherwise is as I said earlier, being dishonest.

Barbara Gordon being the most iconic Batgirl is as a completely valid reason to have her be the first Batgirl on film, just as is wanting Bruce Wayne to be Batman despite the fact others having donned the suit also over the years. Maybe to you a Barbara Gordon Batgirl film isn't special, but to many Bat fans it would be, myself included. Again, no issue with Cain eventually becoming Batgirl, but to say that Barbara can't tell as good a story, or can't have fight scenes as good, as if it's some objective fact shows a lack of awareness of your own bias towards Cain, because neither of these factors are exclusive to one of the characters.

Thing is even if I do have preferences for Babs I can at least back that choice from a business perspective, the main one being brand recognition. The fact of the matter is Barbara's Batgirl is the one most people identify with the character. You can try and argue story or character all you want but when it comes down to business she's the one that's the easier one to sell to people. What Marvel did doesn't play into this because no matter how much you want it to be the situations aren't the same. So why would a company want to use a version of a character no-one knows over a version that is known? It makes no sense from a financial perspective. You're making more work for yourself that you don't need.

 

[Omegabat]

I'd like to drop Steel, Jonah Hex and that Catwoman film with an original character as examples. of WB doing D list characters.

 

[LTuser]

I was never on board with the Batgirl. If they are still following whatever little continuity they had (and personally I don't mind if they still are-it's largely fine) a fully formed Batgirl has no place in that. Given multiple world ending events, if a Batgirl was active she had to show up or AT LEAST get a mention.

Plus WHY Go directly to batgirl, when they STILL have yet to even have a robin?

 

[Juan1193]

Making up your own facts now are we.

I'm not making anything up. Everything I said can easily be looked up and proven correct.

Cassandra Cain has NOTHING going for her outside of the Batgirl mantle. Babs has sold comics without being Batgirl while Cass has not thats an actual fact.

She had a lot going for her, at least before a certain writer and editor over at DC got their hands on her and changed the character completely!

Cass didn't prove squat, she's a tag along with the other 90's rejects in Detective Comics currently riding on Batman's coaattails. Her book was the least successful of her era even losing out to Azrael. Every single book from the 90's Bat family outlasted Cass. Babs book from the New 52 outlasted Robin, Nightwing, Grayson, Batman and Robin, Batman Inc, Batman the Dark Knight etc. It was only cancelled because it was relaunched with Rebirth.

Yes she did! She was the first Batgirl to get her own title, and so far has the longest run of any of them! She did something Barbara couldn't do, become popular enough to warrant getting a book. And for the record, Cass' first book wasn't even cancelled due to low sales. Also the vast majority of those books you mentioned that New 52 Babs supposedly out lasted, were either cancelled for storyline reasons or relaunched for the same reason. Had nothing to do with sales.

To my knowledge Barbara was absent for much of the 70's/80's, and it took TKJ and making her Oracle for her to finally take off in popularity (ie founding BOP, appearing throughout the DCU...etc).

If you're going to play this silly game then Cassandra's second book flopped with 6 issues while Babs is on 20 as of today. So go with what's more relevant instead of cherrypicking what suits you. Cass was only interesting when she was riding the coaattails of the mantle without it she's a nobody.

DC turned Cass into a murderer and completely butchered her character with that book. Any character would have failed in that same situation. Her first series aka the book that made me a fan, lasted 73 issues and is DC's most successful minority led solo title of all time (and the most successful WOC led title among the big two, possibly in comics as a whole). Only minority character from DC that comes close to that number of issues, is Blue Beetle, and it took him 3 volumes (still love Jaime though!). That's quite a feature for such a "nobody" huh!

Babs on the other hand holds the record for lowest selling Batgirl series of all time (Rebirth), and its innevetiably going to be cancelled soon

PS: New 52 had low sales as well, once the nostalgia wore off and Gail Simone left the book.

Difference is that Babs fans didn't ask for Cass and Steph to be benched. DC did it and frankly its their choice. Cass fans just want Babs to be paralyzed but as history has proven Oracle is no guarantee that there will be another Batgirl in mainstream media.

Never said Babs fans asked for DC to bench Cass and Stephanie. I simply pointed out a reality, that you tried to use against them. Quite frankly, if you ask me, it was one of the dumbest things DC has ever done.

Oracle > Babsgirl I think you'll find that opinion quite prevalent amongst DC fans.

I'm getting tired of this tedious debate that is devoid of any facts.
Babs crushes the other Batgirls in terms of mainstream use and recognition, that's fact.
Babs has been Batgirl in the comics longer than Cass and Steph, that's fact.
Batgirl Year One with Babs is the definitive Batgirl story, that's fact.
There are more Batgirl comics starring Babs than both Cass and Steph put together just based on the Post Killing Joke era. That's fact.

Your only defense for Cass is:
That she's more interesting which is like YOUR opinion.
That being a D lister entitles her to special treatment LOL. But like I mentioned why stop at Cass then? Why not make Eradicator the new Superman , JPV the new Batman and call it a day. I mean D listers are special right.
And that because Marvel made films with D listers even though you blatantly ignore the fact that:
Marvel makes good films period even when they used Spider-Man while DCEU barely does.
Batgirl is not a D lister to begin with.
If they flunk with Babs they can rebound with Oracle and shocker Cass and Steph
If they flunk with Cass the damage will be catastrophic not just to the character of Cass but to the perception of Batgirl due to the nature of the Cass character. From stereotypes to rape to abuse Cass is a powder keg.

I gave my two cents on which Batgirl WB should go with based on what I've read in the comics, and which one I felt was the more interesting of the lot. If they choose a different route, that's fine. I'm sure whichever one they go with, WB will find a way to mess it all up anyway.

And, for the record, you started this debate when you got all bent out of shape because people pointed out Cassandra's merits as Batgirl and Barbara's as Oracle. Throwing shade and clinging to the same argument (OMG she's the iconic one OMG) isn't going to convince anyone otherwise by the way.

 

[Juan1193]

You're trying to compare an apple to oranges situation with Ant-Man and Batgirl. The reality is, I've pointed out to you already, that it didn't matter in Marvel's case because ultimately Ant-Man for all intense and purposes was as close as you get to an original character for the public. Batgirl isn't in the same situation, and to claim otherwise is as I said earlier, being dishonest.

Barbara Gordon being the most iconic Batgirl is as a completely valid reason to have her be the first Batgirl on film, just as is wanting Bruce Wayne to be Batman despite the fact others having donned the suit also over the years. Maybe to you a Barbara Gordon Batgirl film isn't special, but to many Bat fans it would be, myself included. Again, no issue with Cain eventually becoming Batgirl, but to say that Barbara can't tell as good a story, or can't have fight scenes as good, as if it's some objective fact shows a lack of awareness of your own bias towards Cain, because neither of these factors are exclusive to one of the characters.

Thing is even if I do have preferences for Babs I can at least back that choice from a business perspective, the main one being brand recognition. The fact of the matter is Barbara's Batgirl is the one most people identify with the character. You can try and argue story or character all you want but when it comes down to business she's the one that's the easier one to sell to people. What Marvel did doesn't play into this because no matter how much you want it to be the situations aren't the same. So why would a company want to use a version of a character no-one knows over a version that is known? It makes no sense from a financial perspective. You're making more work for yourself that you don't need.

We're arguing in circles here. I've already said my piece. I gave my reasons why I think WB should go with Cassandra (stronger story, better action, diversity, fits within the current narrative, fitting the Batman tone..etc), how to get around your reasoning for it to be Babs (include Cass in the Batman solo, spinoff from there, making it clear Babs has moved on from Batgirl role..etc) and I've listed characters Marvel has succeeded with that defeat the whole "name/brand/iconic matters" argument (I'm sure Carol/Captain Marvel will be able to be added soon too). If you still feel Babs is the way to go, then that's fine. I have no quarrel with that opinion. My issue is with dismissing Cass (and Steph) from the conversation, with the reason being they're "nobodies" or not iconic enough.

Anyway, I'm a young patient man, barring some (god forbid) freak accident, I'll be around for the next 55+ years, so I'm well prepared to wait for a Cassandra Cain Batgirl film! Most likely skip out on a Barbara Gordon Batgirl film though

 

[Omegabat]

I'm not making anything up. Everything I said can easily be looked up and proven correct.



She had a lot going for her, at least before a certain writer and editor over at DC got their hands on her and changed the character completely!



Yes she did! She was the first Batgirl to get her own title, and so far has the longest run of any of them! She did something Barbara couldn't do, become popular enough to warrant getting a book. And for the record, Cass' first book wasn't even cancelled due to low sales. Also the vast majority of those books you mentioned that New 52 Babs supposedly out lasted, were either cancelled for storyline reasons or relaunched for the same reason. Had nothing to do with sales.

To my knowledge Barbara was absent for much of the 70's/80's, and it took TKJ and making her Oracle for her to finally take off in popularity (ie founding BOP, appearing throughout the DCU...etc).



DC turned Cass into a murderer and completely butchered her character with that book. Any character would have failed in that same situation. Her first series aka the book that made me a fan, lasted 73 issues and is DC's most successful minority led solo title of all time (and the most successful WOC led title among the big two, possibly in comics as a whole). Only minority character from DC that comes close to that number of issues, is Blue Beetle, and it took him 3 volumes (still love Jaime though!). That's quite a feature for such a "nobody" huh!

Babs on the other hand holds the record for lowest selling Batgirl series of all time (Rebirth), and its innevetiably going to be cancelled soon

PS: New 52 had low sales as well, once the nostalgia wore off and Gail Simone left the book.



Never said Babs fans asked for DC to bench Cass and Stephanie. I simply pointed out a reality, that you tried to use against them. Quite frankly, if you ask me, it was one of the dumbest things DC has ever done.

Oracle > Babsgirl I think you'll find that opinion quite prevalent amongst DC fans.



I gave my two cents on which Batgirl WB should go with based on what I've read in the comics, and which one I felt was the more interesting of the lot. If they choose a different route, that's fine. I'm sure whichever one they go with, WB will find a way to mess it all up anyway.

And, for the record, you started this debate when you got all bent out of shape because people pointed out Cassandra's merits as Batgirl and Barbara's as Oracle. Throwing shade and clinging to the same argument (OMG she's the iconic one OMG) isn't going to convince anyone otherwise by the way.

You said Babs only has a solo because of Cass even though Babs has sold comics without being Batgirl unlike Cass. You made a categorically false statement.

Her primary gimmick was her ability to beat up people because she was trained by some mook who only her writers considered great. The amount of mental gymnastics her writers had to pull to sell Cain as some Deathstroke level character was truly impressive but they still failed spectacularly.
Some writer wrote a bad story or two with her? Shocker welcome to comics where garbage stories are written all the time. If Cass folded after one bad writer then she's a shaky character and therefore must be avoided. As for editor, Babs is the one who was paralyzed because the editor wanted it , that can be backed by facts instead of conspiracy theories Cass fans make.

She got her book because Babs wasn't avilable. The editorial introduced a new creation and backed her with the Batgirl mantle not because she won some popularity contest. Characters dont neccessarily just get books because they're popular and Cass got hers immediately after creation. Its the same thing as those characters from DCs Dark Matter line or Mother Panic. They had an idea they ,backed said idea, the idea fumbled in the long run they moved on . Babs New 52 book wasn't cancelled because of sales either so whats your point? But it was influential enough during the Stewart/Tarr era that DC went in to a movement called Batgirling. Its how you got books like Black Canary for example. Cass never acvomplished anything close to that.

And for the last time TKJ had nothing to do with Oracle which in turn has nothing to do with Cass or Steph. Babs didn't get crippled to become Oracle and she didn't become Oracle so that we could be blessed with Cass. You keep bringing up Oracle again and again as if it means anything. Babs is Oracle and Batgirl, these are parts of her history and character. They have no correlation with Cass and since WB HAS adapted Oracle multiple times in the past without bothering with other Batgirls confirms it. It doesn't matter if you think Oracle is better than Babsgirl ,it means jacksquat with reference to Cass. You just want her to be Oracle simply because you think it leaves the door open for Cass to be Batgirl. WB is more than welcome to show Babs evolution from Batgirl to Oracle. But it should be done for her character, her arc, her journey.


DC has butchered plenty of characters with bad writing, I've been through this, welcome to the world of comics Cass and they DID undo it anyway.

Successful minority led book lol, way to make it sound more impressive than it is. The market doesn't care if you're a minority and she was using an established mantle to begin with. These statements say nothing whatsoever. She's a bottom tier character with zero comics to her name without being called Batgirl. A Batgirl book lasted 73 issues not a Cassandra book or an Orphan book.

Babs on the other hand is published twice monthly in the form of 2 Batgirl books. Almost 50 issues in a mere 2 year period is impressive. But leave it to you to use the natural attirition resulting from having 2 Batgirl books as an indicator of her failings LOL. Either way she's outlasted both Cass and Steph in comics and destroys them in mainstream media. Meanwhile Cass is standing in the background over in Detective.

Batgirling which I've mentioned was a trend during the Tarr/Stewart era.

Yeah but Cass fans want her to be shot and assaulted so that their girl can be a thing again.

If you think they're going to mess up then why are you intently arguing ? LOL.

I stated a fact, yes they are nobodies next to Babs. That's easily provable. You keep saying that Babs isn't interesting over and over as if anyone but Cass and Steph fans believe it.

 

[semper]

Barbara Gordon is interesting. Just not as Batgirl.

It's very telling that Barbara only truly found a passionate fanbase when she became Oracle. Before that she was just this lightweight character that appeared in the Adam West TV show and was mostly benched in the 70's and 80's. She literally wasn't considered very interesting till the Joker took away her legs and she became Oracle.

As Oracle,she's quite amazing and inspiring. A paraplegic who overcome her disability, and used her sheer brainpower to become to go-to tech/information hub of DC universe heroes. She commanded far more respect (from fans and within the DC hero fraternity) in a wheelchair than she did wearing yellow boots. I absolutely love Barbara Gordon as Oracle.

Barbara just feels redundant as Batgirl, especially after seeing her as Oracle for so long. A so-so fighter, who looks like a non-threatening teenager in a purple Halloween costume. I don't get her as Batgirl at all. Forget Cassandra, Batwoman and Huntress make her look pointless.

Why have Barbara as a mediocre costumed hero, instead of a brilliant hacker? Step backwards.

 

[Boom]

Cassandra has a killer costume tho.

 

[Omegabat]

Cassandra has a killer costume tho.

Its not hers by the way, Helena Bertinelli made that costume. Makes sense too as it goes with her personality and attitude. They just kept it for Cass as they didn't want to ditch that design.

 

[Omegabat]

Barbara Gordon is interesting. Just not as Batgirl.

It's very telling that Barbara only truly found a passionate fanbase when she became Oracle. Before that she was just this lightweight character that appeared in the Adam West TV show and was mostly benched in the 70's and 80's. She literally wasn't considered very interesting till the Joker took away her legs and she became Oracle.

As Oracle,she's quite amazing and inspiring. A paraplegic who overcome her disability, and used her sheer brainpower to become to go-to tech/information hub of DC universe heroes. She commanded far more respect (from fans and within the DC hero fraternity) in a wheelchair than she did wearing yellow boots. I absolutely love Barbara Gordon as Oracle.

Barbara just feels redundant as Batgirl, especially after seeing her as Oracle for so long. A so-so fighter, who looks like a non-threatening teenager in a purple Halloween costume. I don't get her as Batgirl at all. Forget Cassandra, Batwoman and Huntress make her look pointless.

Why have Barbara as a mediocre costumed hero, instead of a brilliant hacker? Step backwards.

I would take this more seriously if you hadn't been so busy making a case for Cass being Batgirl. This is very likely to be my last post on this topic so I'll make this very clear. Oracle has nothing to do with Cass, Babs wasn't made Oracle to make way for Cass. It wasn't the same writers who made her Oracle that created Cass. This tactic of pitting Oracle and Babsgirl against each other is a tactic commonly employed by Cass (and Steph) fans. Being Batgirl and Oracle are both part of Babs history. There is no versus, Oracle is nothing without her being Batgirl first. One leads to another, neither however leads to Cass by design.
As Beware the Batman showed its even possible to reverse the journey from Batgirl to Oracle to Oracle to Batgirl. Babs can easily be Oracle as a teen/pre teen and then become Batgirl as a young woman with enough training and age.
Either way that show along with the Arkham games and the Birds of Prey series utilized Oracle but never bothered with some other Batgirl. Beware the Batman even had Katana as Bruce's sidekick and Lady Shiva as one of the major villains. Says a lot about Cassandra's worth really.