The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 53

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]538775[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]537299[/split]

 

[DeadPresident]

I agree, the squad is short of the quality needed for a title winning campaign but our manager is already failing to get enough out of the best players we have, so would buying more attackers for instance really matter? I tend to doubt it, but sadly I do see Martial getting the boot so he can buy Bale.

I am not overly worried about what CM's Mourinho would target in truth, he has brought in quality players like Modric, Essien, Fabregas and Pogba at other clubs and bought Matic twice, he has had an odd love for clunkers like Mikel and Fellaini as well, but usually as spare parts.

Fullbacks are crucial this summer regardless of who is manager, we need to address both flanks, Valencia has been a great servant to the club but he should be a back-up now, he offers nothing in attack, and while Young has had a few good games this season he's 33 and not a proper LB. If we add a CB I'd also be pretty comfortable with Mourinho's choice.

Yeah, the full backs are a priority, and arguably have been since LvG’s days. We’ll likely need to shell out about £100m for the pair if we want decent quality, and then probably another £50-70m for an experienced, leader-type CB, I can’t see Mourinho fielding sides with Smalling/Jones again if he can avoid it.

Trusting Mourinho’s choice on defensive and midfield options is fair, but if he approaches the attack the way he has been we’ll need another £200m investment in the attack alone to start playing any half decent game, which seems far fetched and unacceptable to me. I see is coming a distant second to City again at best next season, if not slipping behind Liverpool depending on how much they improve.

 

[B]

A solid starting XI doesn't win a league, a solid squad does, so we probably need closer to like 8 players in for 8 players out. If we're being brutally honest then Young, Fellaini, Carrick (obviously since he's retiring), Jones, Smalling, Valencia (because of his age), Lingard, and Mata have to be replaced, and they have to be replaced with players that are likely going to cost on average £35m, probably even higher for some crown jewels Mourinho will want to get. Not to mention players like Herrera, Blind, Darmian and Shaw will probably also want to leave so they'll need to be replaced, too.

Are we going to spend £300m+ in a single window and integrate them all within a single season, and also see a reversal in the deterioration of Pogba, Martial, and Sanchez…? Probably not. Even if we get this 'ideal' of Dybala, Kroos, Sandro, and Varane like the papers want uninformed readers to believe we still wouldn't win the league.

Manchester United already have a 'solid squad' though, what we are lacking is the quality in some positions.

We've got some players that are starters in the majority of games & while they are solid enough, they don't have the required quality to really elevate the team ie you don't miss them when they aren't playing.

Lingard is in absolutely no danger of being moved on this summer, it's debatable whether he's got the required quality to muscle his way into being a starter every week, but what isn't debatable is he's got a habit of performing & sometimes scoring, when it's needed most, even if it's from the bench. Last 2 season's he's been Mourinho's 'Park Ji-sung' type player.

 

[DeadPresident]

Manchester United already have a 'solid squad' though, what we are lacking is the quality in some positions.

We've got some players that are starters in the majority of games & while they are solid enough, they don't have the required quality to really elevate the team ie you don't miss them when they aren't playing.

Lingard is in absolutely no danger of being moved on this summer, it's debatable whether he's got the required quality to muscle his way into being a starter every week, but what isn't debatable is he's got a habit of performing & sometimes scoring, when it's needed most, even if it's from the bench. Last 2 season's he's been Mourinho's 'Park Ji-sung' type player.

True, we do have a solid squad, on paper, and we need quality in certain positions. The problem is even if both of those criteria are fulfilled, our squad still needs to be excessively strong to make up for Mourinho's deficits, primarily is absolute inability to get even exceptional attacking players to gel. That's where I would say United need to 'compensate' and have an abundance of talent, because we've got to shore up Mourinho's managerial issues.

Lingard isn't in any danger of being moved on, but he's definitely nothing more than a squad option at United in its current setup if we're legitimately aiming to win the league or ever contest for a CL trophy again. As far as required quality, I feel like we already have the required quality to be giving City a much closer run than we are. Lukaku, Pogba, now Sanchez, and before the likes of Martial, Rashford, and Matic (and Herrera when he's actually played and on form) are sufficient quality to not be scrambling for top 4 positions - we should reasonably be giving City a closer run.

Under Mourinho almost half our squad needs to go, considering his managerial style and what we've seen he has (and hasn't) achieved with certain players. Darmian, Blind, Jones, Smalling, Young, Valencia, Lingard, Mata, Shaw, Martial, all have question marks above their heads. Can we feasibly replace half of them and also add the required reinforcements to compete? Probably not.

 

[Iceman]

Huddersfield at home for us this weekend. Probably one of the more winnable games left in our run. Really need 3 points as it might get harder after this to get any more wins. If we do get it though I will for the first time feel a bit safer, especially if Southampton lose to West Ham.

 

[B]

True, we do have a solid squad, on paper, and we need quality in certain positions. The problem is even if both of those criteria are fulfilled, our squad still needs to be excessively strong to make up for Mourinho's deficits, primarily is absolute inability to get even exceptional attacking players to gel. That's where I would say United need to 'compensate' and have an abundance of talent, because we've got to shore up Mourinho's managerial issues.

Lingard isn't in any danger of being moved on, but he's definitely nothing more than a squad option at United in its current setup if we're legitimately aiming to win the league or ever contest for a CL trophy again. As far as required quality, I feel like we already have the required quality to be giving City a much closer run than we are. Lukaku, Pogba, now Sanchez, and before the likes of Martial, Rashford, and Matic (and Herrera when he's actually played and on form) are sufficient quality to not be scrambling for top 4 positions - we should reasonably be giving City a closer run.

Under Mourinho almost half our squad needs to go, considering his managerial style and what we've seen he has (and hasn't) achieved with certain players. Darmian, Blind, Jones, Smalling, Young, Valencia, Lingard, Mata, Shaw, Martial, all have question marks above their heads. Can we feasibly replace half of them and also add the required reinforcements to compete? Probably not.

I disagree completely. You mention a few times that Mourinho is part of the problem for attacking woes, do you honestly believe we have exceptional attacking talent? I sure as hell don't. We've 2 young strikers with erratic form in Martial & Rashford that have primarily been deployed out of position as LW & occasionally RW due to no other options, we've Mata who while still is a quality player, really needs to be playing through the middle or given a free role in order to fully get the best out of, we've Lingard who while I feel is a valuable player currently, he does seem like more of a squad 'Park Ji-sung' option than a starter.

Then we've got Sanchez who we know has quality, but has only had maybe 1 or 2 good games since his arrival & we know Lukaku can score goals. Ironically Sanchez & Lukaku are currently our only 2 attacking players that have the quality to be starting 11 ready every week. Overall I don't think we've exceptional attacking talent at all. A RW & 2 new fullbacks would go a long way though.

I think the gap between City & United is exactly where it should be given where we've been the last 5 years & where we've been. Mourinho's rant the other week after the Seville defeat about 'Football heritage' ie basically what squad(s) he has inherited between United & Madrid, was laughed at as being salty or excuse ridden, but a lot of it was true & he raised some points, bitter dose of reality for some. We've a solid, yet unexceptional squad capable of challenging for CL spots, we still need a few signings that pan out to real quality to take us up a notch.

Huddersfield at home for us this weekend. Probably one of the more winnable games left in our run. Really need 3 points as it might get harder after this to get any more wins. If we do get it though I will for the first time feel a bit safer, especially if Southampton lose to West Ham.

2-3 wins out of last 8 games, will keep Newcastle up IMO.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Yeah, the full backs are a priority, and arguably have been since LvG’s days. We’ll likely need to shell out about £100m for the pair if we want decent quality, and then probably another £50-70m for an experienced, leader-type CB, I can’t see Mourinho fielding sides with Smalling/Jones again if he can avoid it.

Trusting Mourinho’s choice on defensive and midfield options is fair, but if he approaches the attack the way e has been we’ll need another £200m investment in the attack alone to start playing any half decent game, which seems far fetched and unacceptable to me. I see is coming a distant second to City again at best next season, if not slipping behind Liverpool depending on how much they improve.

Yeah, I have no faith in Mourinho but I do think if the fullbacks are improved it will give us some balance as I think the lack of consistent width we get due to the lack of engine on Young and Valencia means we don't open space for our other forwards and teams can suffocate the attack as everyone gets corralled centrally.

I agree, he's failing to get enough out of the attackers we have without giving him more money to waste on players up top, I have no doubt we'll try for Bale again but hopefully it doesn't happen, it'd be way too much of a risk.

 

[BlackFox]

Well Pogba is tearing it up for France at least, stunning free kick and an assist. Frustrating to watch knowing what he is capable of, shame it isnt working for us at the moment.

 

[Iceman]

2-3 wins out of last 8 games, will keep Newcastle up IMO.

I think we’re capable of getting a load of draws but wins could be hard to come by after this next opportunity. I think a lot of the clubs are going to struggle to get more than a couple of wins so with the number of clubs still in danger we are in store for a lot of nailbiters! Great for neutrals I’m sure.

 

[DeadPresident]

I disagree completely. You mention a few times that Mourinho is part of the problem for attacking woes, do you honestly believe we have exceptional attacking talent? I sure as hell don't. We've 2 young strikers with erratic form in Martial & Rashford that have primarily been deployed out of position as LW & occasionally RW due to no other options, we've Mata who while still is a quality player, really needs to be playing through the middle or given a free role in order to fully get the best out of, we've Lingard who while I feel is a valuable player currently, he does seem like more of a squad 'Park Ji-sung' option than a starter.

In Sanchez and Pogba we have exceptional creative and attacking players, yes. We can't keep playing the youth card with Rashford and Martial either, not when you've got guys their age like Sane showing consistent performances - not to mention past players who were more mature in their decision making at their age. Mata is a player that looked exceptional in teams not managed by Mourinho and seems a shadow of his former self. It's not exaggeration to say that all of our attackers are playing beneath past levels of quality under Mourinho, and that's largely his responsibility.

Then we've got Sanchez who we know has quality, but has only had maybe 1 or 2 good games since his arrival & we know Lukaku can score goals. Ironically Sanchez & Lukaku are currently our only 2 attacking players that have the quality to be starting 11 ready every week. Overall I don't think we've exceptional attacking talent at all. A RW & 2 new fullbacks would go a long way though.

Sure, we can give Sanchez time to settle in (although I'm skeptical it'll happen) and Lukaku has been doing good work for us, but why can't Mourinho get more from players like Martial, Mata, and Pogba in attack? I agree with you and Hunter that quality FBs might contribute to our attack and free up other forwards, but even so what we've seen so far in terms of attacking simply isn't good enough.

I think the gap between City & United is exactly where it should be given where we've been the last 5 years & where we've been. Mourinho's rant the other week after the Seville defeat about 'Football heritage' ie basically what squad(s) he has inherited between United & Madrid, was laughed at as being salty or excuse ridden, but a lot of it was true & he raised some points, bitter dose of reality for some. We've a solid, yet unexceptional squad capable of challenging for CL spots, we still need a few signings that pan out to real quality to take us up a notch.

I agreed completely with Mourinho's football heritage conference, I've said as much as anyone else that United is paying for having effectively three years of standing still in terms of transfers since Moyes and LvG's years had us signing well below what we need. However, at the same time, you've got managers like Klopp, Pochettino, and Guardiola getting great attacking performances out of the likes of Firmino, Bernardo Silva, Son, and other non-exceptional forwards. At the end of the day we've seen a degradation in performance from attackers of every level of skill and maturity under Mourinho, whether it's veterans like Sanchez or newcomers like Martial. The other managers make their attackers more than the sum of their parts, Mourinho seems to make them less than the sum of their parts.

 

[B]

In Sanchez and Pogba we have exceptional creative and attacking players, yes.

We can't keep playing the youth card with Rashford and Martial either, not when you've got guys their age like Sane showing consistent performances - not to mention past players who were more mature in their decision making at their age.

Sanchez yes, although he hasn't displayed it yet for us. Pogba I am expecting more to be our Yaya Toure & the way he was during Mancini's City side, he was a powerhouse both defensively & offensively.

Big difference though, Sane isn't being expected to carry Manchester City's attack, nor would he be capable as his form is just as erratic as Martial & Rashford, Silva & De Bruyne are the 2 more experienced & talented difference makers in City's side.

Mata is a player that looked exceptional in teams not managed by Mourinho and seems a shadow of his former self. It's not exaggeration to say that all of our attackers are playing beneath past levels of quality under Mourinho, and that's largely his responsibility.

Exceptional is a strong word, his Chelsea career was hot & cold much as it's been for us, if you can fit him into the side & get him in positions to get on the ball & if he can avoid being bullied off it, he's a creative asset. Basically he needs to be given the luxury to roam.

Are they playing beneath past levels? Rashford & Martial despite being played prominently out of position have arguably enjoyed their best seasons to date. Lingard's also enjoying his best season to date as well & I believe I read that Lukaku is 1 or 2 goals from equaling his personal best goalscoring tally for a season in all competitions. Sanchez (thus far) & Mata are probably the only 2 I'd argue that have been sub-par under Mourinho this season, the rest, if anything have improved.

Sure, we can give Sanchez time to settle in (although I'm skeptical it'll happen) and Lukaku has been doing good work for us, but why can't Mourinho get more from players like Martial, Mata, and Pogba in attack? I agree with you and Hunter that quality FBs might contribute to our attack and free up other forwards, but even so what we've seen so far in terms of attacking simply isn't good enough.

Well Hunter has his theories & I have mine, aside from the fact that Mata & Martial are both being played out of position, although Martial has shown the ability to play as a LW, the lack of FB support is glaringly obvious. Valencia & Young just aren't able to get up & down the pitch as much as they used to (+ neither are natural fullbacks). Mata is just plain wasted on the RW, you'll never see the best out of him in that positon.

Pogba is an odd one, he has looked his best when he's played as part of a midfield trio & he can link up more with the wide players & Lukaku. That being said I think Mourinho just wants more from him, I don't think he sees Pogba as a playmaker or attacking midfielder, I think he sees him as a box to box CM. I don't think in the majority of games he wants 3 in the middle, I think he wants 2, Matic & Pogba with an attacking midfielder ahead of them.. at least I think anyway.

I agreed completely with Mourinho's football heritage conference, I've said as much as anyone else that United is paying for having effectively three years of standing still in terms of transfers since Moyes and LvG's years had us signing well below what we need. However, at the same time, you've got managers like Klopp, Pochettino, and Guardiola getting great attacking performances out of the likes of Firmino, Bernardo Silva, Son, and other non-exceptional forwards. At the end of the day we've seen a degradation in performance from attackers of every level of skill and maturity under Mourinho, whether it's veterans like Sanchez or newcomers like Martial. The other managers make their attackers more than the sum of their parts, Mourinho seems to make them less than the sum of their parts.

Not only that but he's still been clearing out players brought in by mainly LvG.

As I said before, I don't think we have seen a degradation of our attacking players under Mourinho at all. None of them, the majority of which are still present from LvG's reign, have shown themselves (at least in a Manchester United shirt) to be beyond the level that they are currently at.

 

[B]

I think we’re capable of getting a load of draws but wins could be hard to come by after this next opportunity. I think a lot of the clubs are going to struggle to get more than a couple of wins so with the number of clubs still in danger we are in store for a lot of nailbiters! Great for neutrals I’m sure.

You have a tough enough run in, from what I can see. Home games vs Arsenal & Chelsea, away to Tottenham & Everton.

If anyone can do it, it's Benitez though, he's got a good track record of getting results when it's needed.

 

[B]

Thank God those pointless International friendlies are over with, I honestly don't see the point in delaying the season by 2 weeks just to play non-important games.

I want them to do away with International games that take place during the club season, especially friendlies which are completely pointless.

 

[DeadPresident]

Sanchez yes, although he hasn't displayed it yet for us. Pogba I am expecting more to be our Yaya Toure & the way he was during Mancini's City side, he was a powerhouse both defensively & offensively.

Big difference though, Sane isn't being expected to carry Manchester City's attack, nor would he be capable as his form is just as erratic as Martial & Rashford, Silva & De Bruyne are the 2 more experienced & talented difference makers in City's side.

I'm skeptical of Sanchez coming right this season, if at all, which would be a pity. I think using Toure as a model to turn Pogba into would be a disservice to Pogba's abilities, and Mourinho has shown this stubbornness of 'converting' players who have nothing wrong with them into his mold in the past and it wastes time. We've lost a lot of ground because Mourinho has forced so many players into morphing completely when I feel like with slight compromises to his style we had a decent team ready to go. Based on last season a simple 3-man midfield of Matic as a 6 and Pogba/Herrera as 8s would've been perfect. Obviously, before Herrera's confidence and status at the club was completely eroded.

Exceptional is a strong word, his Chelsea career was hot & cold much as it's been for us, if you can fit him into the side & get him in positions to get on the ball & if he can avoid being bullied off it, he's a creative asset. Basically he needs to be given the luxury to roam.

Are they playing beneath past levels? Rashford & Martial despite being played prominently out of position have arguably enjoyed their best seasons to date. Lingard's also enjoying his best season to date as well & I believe I read that Lukaku is 1 or 2 goals from equaling his personal best goalscoring tally for a season in all competitions. Sanchez (thus far) & Mata are probably the only 2 I'd argue that have been sub-par under Mourinho this season, the rest, if anything have improved.

I'd say his Chelsea career was fairly consistent, he was their player of the season twice in a row if I'm not mistaken. Maybe exceptional was a little strong, but Mata is definitely capable of a lot better than we've seen from him. Lukaku I'd say is having a good season, but I don't think Martial/Rashford are being asked to carry United. Just to contribute better quality in the final third - which I would imagine is a coaching thing, the decision-making from our forwards is horrendous compared to the likes of City, Spurs, and Liverpool.

Well Hunter has his theories & I have mine, aside from the fact that Mata & Martial are both being played out of position, although Martial has shown the ability to play as a LW, the lack of FB support is glaringly obvious. Valencia & Young just aren't able to get up & down the pitch as much as they used to (+ neither are natural fullbacks). Mata is just plain wasted on the RW, you'll never see the best out of him in that positon.

Pogba is an odd one, he has looked his best when he's played as part of a midfield trio & he can link up more with the wide players & Lukaku. That being said I think Mourinho just wants more from him, I don't think he sees Pogba as a playmaker or attacking midfielder, I think he sees him as a box to box CM. I don't think in the majority of games he wants 3 in the middle, I think he wants 2, Matic & Pogba with an attacking midfielder ahead of them.. at least I think anyway.

Fair, that I agree with. Why Mata isn't being played as a #10 is beyond me, but it's probably because Mourinho doesn't want a player that's good in possession at 10, he wants adept ball carriers in the vein of Ozil, Mkhitaryan, or Oscar. I feel like Mourinho not compromising for Pogba has been the biggest unforced headache of his tenure. We had a ready-made midfield when Mourinho came in, and instead of try and use it he's pretty much killed Herrera's career at the club, over-used Matic, and tried to turn Pogba from an attacking outlet into a shackled #6.

I personally also despise the 4-2-3-1 formation the way Mourinho plays it, it's a coward's formation. I'm fully willing to accept he feels it's necessary because our mediocre CBs need additional protection, but if we get a solid CB to pair with Bailly/Lindelof/Rojo and he keeps on with the 2 6s it'll be a travesty.

Not only that but he's still been clearing out players brought in by mainly LvG.

As I said before, I don't think we have seen a degradation of our attacking players under Mourinho at all. None of them, the majority of which are still present from LvG's reign, have shown themselves (at least in a Manchester United shirt) to be beyond the level that they are currently at.

This is the part I have no problem accepting. The accrued rot from Moyes' season plus the stasis we experienced with van Gaal is busy haunting us, since we're basically in a position where we can't bolster the squad significantly enough every season to get ahead of players aging, leaving, or just not being good enough. We've needed transfer windows where 6 average players leave and 6 great/world class ones come in for each of Mourinho's summer windows, but we're just not getting the depth of quality fast enough.

I do think a few players from LvG's reign could've been at the very least decent squad options or utilized to bridge the gap, but because Mourinho is pigheaded about his style they're wasting away and we're not even going to get decent fees for them. Blind and Herrera in particular could've been used far more often, specifically Herrera. The two seasons prior to this he was impeccable for us and probably our most balanced CM since the Keane/Scholes days and he's been iced out completely.

 

[HunBoy]

I hope the Argentina fans "be grateful" for Lionel Messi. He was injury? Hahaha. Nope.
It may not help a lot on this psychologically on Argentina that the captain (who should leade the team) because of his decision leaving his teammates in s***. What a leader! Meanwhile CR all spit blood on a match and say he should play with broken leg too.

 

[Iceman]

Thank God those pointless International friendlies are over with, I honestly don't see the point in delaying the season by 2 weeks just to play non-important games.

I want them to do away with International games that take place during the club season, especially friendlies which are completely pointless.

Yeah, from past discussions I think pretty much everyone in here agrees on this point.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

Well Pogba is tearing it up for France at least, stunning free kick and an assist. Frustrating to watch knowing what he is capable of, shame it isnt working for us at the moment.

I feel like he doesn't want to be at the club.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

I actually believe we have a chance of signing Bale this summer. Would it be a good signing? Well, only time will tell.

 

[BlackFox]

I feel like he doesn't want to be at the club.

I feel like he doesnt want to be at any club that is not attack minded. France dont set up to hold on at the back and nick one on the counter and Juve didnt either. I dont think any attack minded player would really want to be, I can imagine Sanchez is enjoying things or Lukaku probably expected to get more chances than he has this season to score. I doubt any of them are happy.

 

[BlackFox]

I actually believe we have a chance of signing Bale this summer. Would it be a good signing? Well, only time will tell.

Maybe but again like Hunter eluded to what would be the point if are attackers are being shackled. We could sign Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar but still struggle to breach our opponents with Fellaini, Matic & McTominay all sitting deep in the midfield, at some point we have to be happy with the attacking personel and make it work with what we have otherwise we will be starting from scratch every season.

 

[BlackFox]

Thank God those pointless International friendlies are over with, I honestly don't see the point in delaying the season by 2 weeks just to play non-important games.

I want them to do away with International games that take place during the club season, especially friendlies which are completely pointless.

To be fair teams need to gear up for the world cup so this break makes the most sense out of any of them.

Maybe the new international "league" that replaces them will be more interesting, maybe not...

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

Maybe but again like Hunter eluded to what would be the point if are attackers are being shackled. We could sign Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar but still struggle to breach our opponents with Fellaini, Matic & McTominay all sitting deep in the midfield, at some point we have to be happy with the attacking personel and make it work with what we have otherwise we will be starting from scratch every season.

You ain't wrong about that mate...

 

[Iceman]

To be fair teams need to gear up for the world cup so this break makes the most sense out of any of them.

Maybe the new international "league" that replaces them will be more interesting, maybe not...

What's this new international league?

 

[Breogan]

Thank God those pointless International friendlies are over with, I honestly don't see the point in delaying the season by 2 weeks just to play non-important games.

I want them to do away with International games that take place during the club season, especially friendlies which are completely pointless.

I don't follow enough. Don't these matches allow for the national teams to practice together as a team?

I hope the Argentina fans "be grateful" for Lionel Messi. He was injury? Hahaha. Nope.
It may not help a lot on this psychologically on Argentina that the captain (who should leade the team) because of his decision leaving his teammates in s***. What a leader! Meanwhile CR all spit blood on a match and say he should play with broken leg too.

Was he not injured?
Seeing Messi watch his team get destroyed, seemed painful.

To be fair teams need to gear up for the world cup so this break makes the most sense out of any of them.

Maybe the new international "league" that replaces them will be more interesting, maybe not...

What's this new international league?

I have the same question?