The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[The Joker]

Rewatched this on HBOMax. First time I’ve sat all the way through since seeing it on screen. Still don’t like it.

- Batman is barely in it
- Cops trapped under the city for months but come out clean shaven and completely healthy looking
- Bruce Wayne is taken to some prison in the Middle East, escapes, and somehow is able to get back to Gotham when he is supposedly broke
- A city of 12 million people and it feels empty. They couldn’t even add CGI to make the stadium look full
- Talia’s death scene was unintended humor
- Fight choreography was horrible
- Bruce trusting Selena made no sense. She lured him into a trap and almost got him killed. He comes back and cracks jokes with her like it’s no big deal
- Batman uses the Bat to fly the bomb out into the ocean. It’s large enough to make a mushroom cloud and yet Lucius is able to retrieve the wreckage and somehow determine the autopilot was fixed
- “Robin”

- If you mean Bale in the Batman suit, that was kind of the point. It was about Bruce finding his purpose again as Batman. It was still very much a Batman centered story, regardless of how much time he was actually in the cowl.
- Back in 2010 there was 33 miners in Chile trapped underground for 69 days. When they were rescued they all came out looking pretty clean and shaven;



- Wasn't the whole point that most of the citizens were hiding scared behind their doors during the siege of Gotham. I mean aside from the blown bridges, armed tanks driving through the streets, Cops and rich people being hunted and killed, Bane also frees all the inmates of Blackgate to roam free like that will make people feel safe just because they were imprisoned under the lie of Dent's heroic legacy. Would you be wandering the streets with all that going on?
- Agreed. Talia's death scene was bad. I am surprised Nolan and Cottiard were satisfied with that take.
- The fight choreography is definitely on the weaker side in this one. Still loved the Bane vs Batman fights though.
- I think Bruce saw that Selina's back was up against a wall. She did it out of fear for her life - "I had to find a way to stop them trying to kill me". He had investigated her background. She was just a jewel thief. Not a ruthless murderous criminal. Even then she only stole from those who could afford to lose it. Its why she had such a dim view of rich people, as showcased to Bruce when they danced at the party.
- It wasn't the same Bat. It was just the autopilot system they were looking at.
- This is a personal taste for people. The Robin thing either worked for some or it didn't.

 

[Herofan]

- Bruce trusting Selena made no sense. She lured him into a trap and almost got him killed. He comes back and cracks jokes with her like it’s no big deal

Yes I very much disliked that aspect (although I also didn't get him trusting her the first time). It's like Nolan just thought you're supposed to want the hero to forgive and be with the love interest, especially when they are Batman and Catwoman (and to be fair many viewers did).

Didn't The Dark Knight feature a man able to get up and walk around with half his face burned off?

People were able to accept that unreality because they thought the character and story were good, were and are less accepting of other stretches otherwise.

Anne isn’t in the Catwoman outfit much but she is the most comic accurate Selina in film.

I don't think Selina has generally been depicted as wanting to quit crime and start over without her record.

ETA:

Didn't Bruce once travel the world without a penny to his name in the very first movie?

I think a lot slower than from the Middle East or North Africa to Gotham in 3 weeks.

 

[pixen]

I don't think Selina has generally been depicted as wanting to quit crime and start over without her record.

It tracks and is still accurate. I think comic fans forget that it’s a different medium than the comics. Films don’t go on forever. It’s the same reason why Steve isn’t in the MCU anymore. Chris Evans doesn’t want to be doing that role for the rest of his life and Marvel wants to explore other characters. This was clearly the end for this Batman so it made sense to do the same for Catwoman. Both wanted a conclusion to their struggle in Gotham and they both got to move on past it.

Bruce sees the good/potential of people in Gotham and that’s how he feels with Selina. The ground was shrinking underneath her. As she said “I started off doing what I had to. Once you've done what you had to they'll never let you do what you want to.” That line pretty much sums up Catwoman in both film and comics. Anne’s version walked the morally gray line that she does in the comics, along with the Robin Hood esque vibe she had too.

 

[Dede]

Rewatched this on HBOMax. First time I’ve sat all the way through since seeing it on screen. Still don’t like it.

- Batman is barely in it
- Cops trapped under the city for months but come out clean shaven and completely healthy looking
- Bruce Wayne is taken to some prison in the Middle East, escapes, and somehow is able to get back to Gotham when he is supposedly broke
- A city of 12 million people and it feels empty. They couldn’t even add CGI to make the stadium look full
- Talia’s death scene was unintended humor
- Fight choreography was horrible
- Bruce trusting Selena made no sense. She lured him into a trap and almost got him killed. He comes back and cracks jokes with her like it’s no big deal
- Batman uses the Bat to fly the bomb out into the ocean. It’s large enough to make a mushroom cloud and yet Lucius is able to retrieve the wreckage and somehow determine the autopilot was fixed
- “Robin”

The stadium was 3/4 of the way full. Nolan only likes practical so the stadium using cgi is out. Look at nfl stadiums they are never full anymore.
Cops were given supplies so that’s why they look good
Batman was featured in the movie more than in begins.
There was a second bat. If you look it’s unpainted
The sewer fight is one of the best fight scenes ever so they used the choreography when needed too
Talias death is a 1 second scene I’ll take that over a full movies worth of Katie Holmes.

 

[Herofan]

Why were cops given supplies?

 

[The Joker]

Why were cops given supplies?

"The Police will survive as they learn to serve true justice" - Bane. They were torturing them by keeping them alive and imprisoned.

 

[Brother Jack]

Yes I very much disliked that aspect (although I also didn't get him trusting her the first time). It's like Nolan just thought you're supposed to want the hero to forgive and be with the love interest, especially when they are Batman and Catwoman (and to be fair many viewers did).

This is explainable when you look at Bruce's arc as a whole. He responds to Selina initially because he is lonely and, though he doesn't realize it, looking for a reason to get back into the world. With Rachel Bruce saw this illusion of a normal life, but when he looks at Selina he sees himself. He sees through her facade immediately at the compromised but ultimately good-hearted person she is. One of the bigger lessons Bruce has to learn throughout the trilogy is how to trust people. He has this line in Begins: "I don't have the luxury of friends". It's such a Batman line, but it's hypocritical. As much as Bruce may see his crusade as a lone endeavor, he is dependent on others to do what he does. In Rises that comes to fruition in Selina wherein he is at first burned by trusting her but ultimately sees his faith in her rewarded (in contrast to his relationship with Miranda/Talia, where it's reversed).

 

[DoomRulz]

I will agree with the awful fight scenes. That rooftop Catwoman and Batman fight is so badly done.

There's a definitely a weird moment in that scene where one stuntman just, falls, for no apparent reason. But Bats and Bane's first fight is easily one of the best fights ever put to film. Wide shots, great use of lighting, no dramatic music, realistic fighting mechanics, and a real sense of Batman being in over his head. I love it.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

“You’re laughing. Bane and his wreckage brothers crashed my plane and you’re laughing.”

 

[pixen]

There's a definitely a weird moment in that scene where one stuntman just, falls, for no apparent reason. But Bats and Bane's first fight is easily one of the best fights ever put to film. Wide shots, great use of lighting, no dramatic music, realistic fighting mechanics, and a real sense of Batman being in over his head. I love it.

Maybe so but it doesn’t make up for that rooftop one. Selina’s gun fires but there’s no gunflash, they reuse different angles of the fight after it’s happened in a previous shot.

 

[Dede]

Maybe so but it doesn’t make up for that rooftop one. Selina’s gun fires but there’s no gunflash, they reuse different angles of the fight after it’s happened in a previous shot.

I just watched the scene. I pretty sure there’s a flash. If there isn’t it might of been out of frame. That’s happened in the dark knight during the bank opening. The henchmen was also hit by a gun but that’s still debatable

 

[pixen]

I just watched the scene. I pretty sure there’s a flash. If there isn’t it might of been out of frame. That’s happened in the dark knight during the bank opening. The henchmen was also hit by a gun but that’s still debatable

There isn’t. I’ve watched. There’s a lot of holding waiting for things to happen too. Selina does her twirl takedown in the bg of a shot and then does it again on a shot focused on her. It’s a bit of a wreck.

 

[BatLobster]

- Bruce trusting Selena made no sense. She lured him into a trap and almost got him killed. He comes back and cracks jokes with her like it’s no big deal

All the other criticisms have been discussed to death at this point, but wanted to hone in on this one cause I don't hear it often.

Sure, you can say it's a bit cheesy and convenient, but I think this is an underplayed thing in the movie that actually speaks volumes about Bruce's character. He sees good in Selena despite her betrayal and has an unwavering belief that there's more to her. Ultimately his faith is rewarded. The situation has also obviously changed since Bane's siege of the city and the bomb, and he knows that Selena was just doing what she did because she has her own endgame in mind, not because she truly believes in Bane's revolution. He also knows she can be useful as a double agent due to her past association with Bane.

This combination of compassion and intelligence-- not allowing himself to be blinded by anger over the past is a Bruce Wayne at his peak, and showing the growth of a character who has overcome a hell of a lot to get to this point and become a more well-rounded person who's willing to trust and forgive. It's also very classic Bruce/Selena.

 

[Dede]

All the other criticisms have been discussed to death at this point, but wanted to hone in on this one cause I don't hear it often.

Sure, you can say it's a bit cheesy and convenient, but I think this is an underplayed thing in the movie that actually speaks volumes about Bruce's character. He sees good in Selena despite her betrayal and has an unwavering belief that there's more to her. Ultimately his faith is rewarded. The situation has also obviously changed since Bane's siege of the city and the bomb, and he knows that Selena was just doing what she did because she has her own endgame in mind, not because she truly believes in Bane's revolution. He also knows she can be useful as a double agent due to her past association with Bane.

This combination of compassion and intelligence-- not allowing himself to be blinded by anger over the past is a Bruce Wayne at his peak, and showing the growth of a character who has overcome a hell of a lot to get to this point and become a more well-rounded person who's willing to trust and forgive. It's also very classic Bruce/Selena.

Another thing is I think he realized he loved her when she came back and saved him right after talias betrayal which puts everything into perspective

 

[BatLobster]

Alright guys, I've been daydreaming a bit. Had a weird thought, here goes.

In a world where we're getting Keaton as Batman again, I think it may very well come to a point where I'd actually be down to see another story in the Nolan-verse. Still too soon. I'm talking like a decade from now or maybe longer when Reeves' films might be winding down. Like when Bale's in his 60s.

My feeling is, Nolan is a guy who's made films like Tenet, Inception, Interstellar, even The Prestige to an extent, that have these really trippy sci-fi concepts at the core. Yet his Batman films, despite being operatic in scope, strayed away from otherworldly things for the most part. The main sci-fi elements were the gadgets, which mostly passed for things you figured could already be cutting edge military tech.

I have no idea what the story would be, but I think it could really be cool to pick up decades where we left off, and *insert Nolan high concept here*...Bruce is forced out of retirement to deal with some type of planetary 'event' or threat. I guess similar in a sense to the ideas about how Nolan's universe could've been utilized for BvS, but the problem there IMO is that Snyder and Nolan just have such different sensibilities that it really would've tarnished the trilogy. Whether it would have to do with an alien presence, the multiverse, or something else, the idea would be to treat it through that lens of verisimilitude that all his films have and give us a true end of the world stakes kind of Batman movie that isn't a green screen, CGI-fest.

What started to get me thinking about it is, we're now living in a world where UFOs are being talked about more seriously and openly by the U.S. government and you have the Pentagon admitting that they don't know what they are. I just have to imagine that a Bruce Wayne living happily retired in Italy would have to start asking questions and want to get to the bottom of something that huge. It doesn't have to be aliens, but my central "what if?" here, is what if there is something the defies conventional scientific explanation in this otherwise grounded world. IE- something time related, interdimensional, super artificial intelligence, etc. Basically any idea that could be the foundation of a great sci-fi concept in its own right. How would a Bruce Wayne who feels he's seen the whole world and has it all figured out react to that? And it would be in keeping with the tradition of each film in the series touching on a different genre. This could be the metaphysical sci-fi thriller Batman film. But still treated as if this is happening in a world that feels closely related to our own and not a comic-booky world, where the science feels borderline plausible and it's the highest stakes imaginable. It could also be a legacy sequel that involved Blake, potentially a child with Selina (and/or a secret child with Talia if her death was retconned), and a whole host of characters and villains too.

Welp. That's my pitch LOL. I'd say this has about a .001% chance of happening, but again. Seeing Keaton back is something I never thought I'd see in a million years. And eventually Bale's moment for a nostalgia comeback will come. And I think we are still likely to see some type of nod to Flash that brings the Nolanverse in as part of the wider DC multiverse.

 

[DoomRulz]

Alright guys, I've been daydreaming a bit. Had a weird thought, here goes.

In a world where we're getting Keaton as Batman again, I think it may very well come to a point where I'd actually be down to see another story in the Nolan-verse. Still too soon. I'm talking like a decade from now or maybe longer when Reeves' films might be winding down. Like when Bale's in his 60s.

My feeling is, Nolan is a guy who's made films like Tenet, Inception, Interstellar, even The Prestige to an extent, that have these really trippy sci-fi concepts at the core. Yet his Batman films, despite being operatic in scope, strayed away from otherworldly things for the most part. The main sci-fi elements were the gadgets, which mostly passed for things you figured could already be cutting edge military tech.

I have no idea what the story would be, but I think it could really be cool to pick up decades where we left off, and *insert Nolan high concept here*...Bruce is forced out of retirement to deal with some type of planetary 'event' or threat. I guess similar in a sense to the ideas about how Nolan's universe could've been utilized for BvS, but the problem there IMO is that Snyder and Nolan just have such different sensibilities that it really would've tarnished the trilogy. Whether it would have to do with an alien presence, the multiverse, or something else, the idea would be to treat it through that lens of verisimilitude that all his films have and give us a true end of the world stakes kind of Batman movie that isn't a green screen, CGI-fest.

What started to get me thinking about it is, we're now living in a world where UFOs are being talked about more seriously and openly by the U.S. government and you have the Pentagon admitting that they don't know what they are. I just have to imagine that a Bruce Wayne living happily retired in Italy would have to start asking questions and want to get to the bottom of something that huge. It doesn't have to be aliens, but my central "what if?" here, is what if there is something the defies conventional scientific explanation in this otherwise grounded world. IE- something time related, interdimensional, super artificial intelligence, etc. Basically any idea that could be the foundation of a great sci-fi concept in its own right. How would a Bruce Wayne who feels he's seen the whole world and has it all figured out react to that? And it would be in keeping with the tradition of each film in the series touching on a different genre. This could be the metaphysical sci-fi thriller Batman film. But still treated as if this is happening in a world that feels closely related to our own and not a comic-booky world, where the science feels borderline plausible and it's the highest stakes imaginable. It could also be a legacy sequel that involved Blake, potentially a child with Selina (and/or a secret child with Talia if her death was retconned), and a whole host of characters and villains too.

Welp. That's my pitch LOL. I'd say this has about a .001% chance of happening, but again. Seeing Keaton back is something I never thought I'd see in a million years. And eventually Bale's moment for a nostalgia comeback will come. And I think we are still likely to see some type of nod to Flash that brings the Nolanverse in as part of the wider DC multiverse.

The Nolan fanboy in me wants this to happen. But Bale would likely never agree to it, in part due to him not wanting to drastically alter his body like he used to. He can't take it anymore.

 

[BatLobster]

The Nolan fanboy in me wants this to happen. But Bale would likely never agree to it, in part due to him not wanting to drastically alter his body like he used to. He can't take it anymore.

Well, to play Devil's advocate here...Bale has been on the record of saying he would've liked to return for a fourth and felt there was more to explore with the character. You could potentially configure a story that's a bit more "Batman Beyond" in nature, where Bruce is more of a detective, the 'man in the chair' so to speak. And even if Bruce did suit up again, it's not like he'd have to get jacked. He could have a more futuristic suit. The physical aspect is definitely not stopping Keaton from coming back.

Granted, I fully admit that this is just pie in the sky, fantasy talk, but it's still fun to imagine what that would look like. Jonathan Nolan has also said that he'd love to revisit the character in a later part of his life. It just seems like there could be a bit of a missing link there- both Nolans have such a fascination with sci-fi, yet they worked on a superhero trilogy that was relatively light on the sci-fi aspect. It could potentially be something that really brings everything together for them down the road.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I'd be totally down for this, but at the same time I don't see it happening. I think Chris is pretty much done with the superhero genre, and I find it unlikely he'd have an itch to come back. BUT, I'd love for it to happen at some point. Time can definitely change minds, and if the Nolan brothers feel there's a story to tell, I could see it eventually coming to fruition.

 

[BatLobster]

I'd be totally down for this, but at the same time I don't see it happening. I think Chris is pretty much done with the superhero genre, and I find it unlikely he'd have an itch to come back. BUT, I'd love for it to happen at some point. Time can definitely change minds, and if the Nolan brothers feel there's a story to tell, I could see it eventually coming to fruition.

I think the way it would have to happen, IF it was gonna happen, would be Jonathan comes up with a great story that he pitches to Chris and it's such a compelling pitch that Chris can't unhear the idea. And either decides to give it another go, or gives Jonathan and or/Lisa Joy his blessing to move forward with it. To be honest, I don't think it would truly feel authentic without Chris' directorial touch, but the latter is the way it could stay "in the family" and feel connected while being its own thing. Possibly a more realistic outcome-- could be something like:

Story by Christopher Nolan, Jonathan Nolan and David Goyer
Screenplay by Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy
Directed by Jonathan Nolan and/or Lisa Joy

Let's see how Reminiscence turns out first, but if Lisa's career as a film director takes off I think this could be an interesting possibility. First female director to direct a Batman film would be a nice feather in the cap. I actually kind of like this idea because it still leaves TDKT solidified as Chris Nolan's trilogy, but would offer a way to tell a new story set in that world that has his blessing.

Still just daydreaming here, haha. But I think stranger things have happened.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I think the way it would have to happen, IF it was gonna happen, would be Jonathan comes up with a great story that he pitches to Chris and it's such a compelling pitch that Chris can't unhear the idea. And either decides to give it another go, or gives Jonathan and or/Lisa Joy his blessing to move forward with it. To be honest, I don't think it would truly feel authentic without Chris' directorial touch, but the latter is the way it could stay "in the family" and feel connected while being its own thing. Possibly a more realistic outcome-- could be something like:

Story by Christopher Nolan, Jonathan Nolan and David Goyer
Screenplay by Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy
Directed by Jonathan Nolan and/or Lisa Joy

Let's see how Reminiscence turns out first, but if Lisa's career as a film director takes off I think this could be an interesting possibility. First female director to direct a Batman film would be a nice feather in the cap. I actually kind of like this idea because it still leaves TDKT solidified as Chris Nolan's trilogy, but would offer a way to tell a new story set in that world that has his blessing.

Still just daydreaming here, haha. But I think stranger things have happened.

I'm in total agreement haha. That's probably the only way I could see it happening and it being something special. It has to be something that stays close to Nolan and his vision overall, which is one of the reasons I find it so unlikely but you never know. I still think Bale would love to play him again too.

 

[BatLobster]

I'm in total agreement haha. That's probably the only way I could see it happening and it being something special. It has to be something that stays close to Nolan and his vision overall, which is one of the reasons I find it so unlikely but you never know. I still think Bale would love to play him again too.

Just for context, the main reason I'm even entertaining the thought is right here at 30 seconds:



Tiny sliver of hope there...2032 baby, mark your calendars!

But seriously, he could've very easily said "No we told our story, we're 100% done" like Chris always says. But he did leave the door a crack open there. Always thought that was interesting.

 

[Kane52630]

I never could find a properly lit version of this shot in gif form so I did it myself.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Just for context, the main reason I'm even entertaining the thought is right here at 30 seconds:



Tiny sliver of hope there...2032 baby, mark your calendars!

But seriously, he could've very easily said "No we told our story, we're 100% done" like Chris always says. But he did leave the door a crack open there. Always thought that was interesting.

Man, you can tell he still has some passion in him for the character. never say never!

I never could find a properly lit version of this shot in gif form so I did it myself.

That's one of my favorite shots from TDK. Look how gorgeous that cinematography is. *chefs kiss*

 

[BatLobster]

Man, you can tell he still has some passion in him for the character. never say never!


That's one of my favorite shots from TDK. Look how gorgeous that cinematography is. *chefs kiss*

Love the callback to the similar shot of Batman crouched in the same spot outside Gordon's apartment in Batman Begins too.

 

[Brother Jack]

Wow, for some reason I never made that connection before. There are so many little details like this that link the films together. As much as TDK may feel standalone, it's still playing off of Begins in many ways. Like how story-wise the implicit reason Bruce believes in Harvey so much is because he reminds him of his own father Thomas Wayne, a character not actually ever mentioned in the film.