Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[MadVillainy]

Whether Snyder had more than enough chances or not, it's not warranted at all to bad talk a guy who's not there to defend himself and is the middle of grieving

 

[Erzengel]

I’m just perplexed that Warners signed Zack on to do Justice League in the first place long before they ever had gotten wind of how BvS would be received, and even after MOS’s critical reception and underperformance relative to expectations. Maybe I can understand keeping Snyder on for BvS since Goyer could’ve been scapegoated for MOS’s mixed critical reception and perhaps they thought Zack getting an Oscar winning screenwriter in Chris Terrio would win them better critical results, but I still think they should’ve been cautious and only signed Zack for BVS, and get a different director JL from the get-go in case things with Snyder went south(which it ultimately did).

I think we can play the what if game throughout the DCEU process. They should have moved on from Snyder after BvS, they should have not doubled down on Snyder after MOS, or they should have just brought in someone to oversee who wasn't just some sort of executive who also has a Conjuring, the next Melissa McCarthy comedy and Harry Potter script on their plate.

I understand what WB was thinking. They were sitting on this vast library of characters and obviously characters like Spider-Man and Batman were doing well and Marvel seemed to be doing well with their movies, they thought they could just green light stuff and things would work out. Plus they had issues with the Superman rights, so another Superman movie had to be made.

But I really think they lean on directors/writers capabilities and especially with the CBM, only seem to interfere post product. I think GL not having a working script halfway through. They let Snyder get through 2 movies, before they decided to pump the brakes.

I still feel that WB/DC is just directionless and are still leaning on their talent and hope to step into things.

 

[flickchick85]

I'm sure WB considered firing Zack earlier. But it's not like the guy was just sitting passively throughout while they made their decisions - he probably talked his way into keeping the job, after both MoS and BvS, pitching his "epic" vision that promised to get to the version of the characters audiences wanted to see...eventually. And the train was already moving so they ultimately decided to take the gamble and go with it, thinking it would save them the headache of going back to the drawing board. Just turned out "eventually" wasn't soon enough.

 

[Detective Conan]

Whether Snyder had more than enough chances or not, it's not warranted at all to bad talk a guy who's not there to defend himself and is the middle of grieving

But Whedon didn’t really badmouth Snyder though, what’s been alleged is that he was only critical of his cut of the film. So he only badmouthed the art, not the artist. So it’s not like Whedon was attacking Snyder personally, he just likely wasn’t fond of his version of the movie and was frustrated trying to make the movie in the state it was in work within the amount of time he was given by the studio - this of course doesn’t excuse any unprofessionalism that may have gone on from behind-the-scenes on Whedon’s part but I just don’t see that as being that too disrespectful. He’s being hired to work on the movie that the executives who brought him on likely agreed wasn’t in the best shape to begin with, and needed major improvements.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

That’s just tacky and not in good taste period to trash another creator on set, in public or wherever, especially someone of Joss Whedon’s caliber. You’re the director, you’re supposed to set the tone for your production and if what you’re doing is trashing people, that’s unacceptable. You’d never hear about Steven Spielberg clowning James Cameron, that’s very wack.

But if they’re ripping Bryan Singer, by all means go for what you know.

 

[MadVillainy]

But Whedon didn’t really badmouth Snyder though, what’s been alleged is that he was only critical of his cut of the film. So he only badmouthed the art, not the artist. So it’s not like Whedon was attacking Snyder personally, he just likely wasn’t fond of his version of the movie and was frustrated trying to make the movie in the state it was in work within the amount of time he was given by the studio - this of course doesn’t excuse any unprofessionalism that may have gone on from behind-the-scenes on Whedon’s part but I just don’t see that as being that too disrespectful. He’s being hired to work on the movie that the executives who brought him on likely agreed wasn’t in the best shape to begin with, and needed major improvements.

Even badmouthing the art is unprofessional. Just cuz you're not getting personal doesn't mean it's a fine thing to do.
It's not helpful, it's petty, and it doesn't create a good work environment.

People are focusing on "Well Snyder made a bad movie" but that doesn't matter at all. It doesn't matter if he made Transformers ROTF & The Last Airbender combined. That doesn't give Whedon the right to come in and openly bash/criticize the movie especially when:
a) It's behind Zack's back on some schoolyard nonsense. Because you know Whedon wouldn't criticize Zack's work to his face. Or if he did he'd be very nice and soft handed about it.

b) He allegedly was doing it to people who worked on Zack's vision and could've liked what Zack and them were doing together, which would've made them feel uncomfortable or even angry. Which would create a poor workplace or boss/employee relationship between them and Whedon.

c) Whedon is doing it in front of Zack's friends while him (Whedon) is in a position of power. Those who are Zack's friends could've felt like they couldn't stand up for Zack because Whedon could've affect their time on set.

d) As @Shinobi Shaw pointed out, Whedon is the captain of the ship. It's not helpful to have the boss come in and be dismissive. Even if the product is bad. That doesn't boost morale, that doesn't inspire others, the doesn't make for a better final product, and it makes for a poor workplace.

And the whole "he criticized the art not the artist" thing...we've heard from many artists over the years how personal their art is to them. Why do you think we hear of creative types becoming depressed, suicidal, mentally ill, etc. because their art doesn't work out? And if you look at all of Snyder's work clearly he puts himself in his work, for better or worse. Whedon, as a fellow artist, I'm sure knows that art is personal to the artist and that he shouldn't be openly criticizing it on the set. And me saying that isn't saying that no "art" or "artist" should be criticized. But from someone who truly gets how personal a movie/filmmaking can be from regular first hand experience, regardless if the film turns out good or bad? That's tacky, corny, unprofessional, and a bad look for a fellow creative type.

I know people always things like this in a discussion, but I swear on my life I work with a lot of creative types (designers, editors, writers) at my ad agency. They've had to go in and fix work of other ad partners. Never have I seen any of them openly criticize the ad partner's work in front of the ad partner's own staff. No matter how bad. Because even they as creatives know better. They'll rip on it in private. Oh they would sure do that. But never in public and for sure never to the ad partner's staff

Go to any job or field and "cut down, dismiss, and be negative" (Kevin Smith's words about what he heard) about someone's work when you don't need to. Again, not just be critical to get the best results, "cut down, dismiss, and be negative." There's a reason that praise in public, criticize in private is a whole thing and is applied to leaders to staff or in general. Praise In Public, Criticize In Private | Radical Candor.

Again we'll see what shakes out.
If Whedon was just like "Well that doesn't work change that" then that's fine.

But if he was truly openly dismissive and was saying things on set like "This sucks," "What the **** was he thinking there" and stuff of that nature? It's not abusive, but that's Whedon being unprofessional as well as unhelpful and tacky. Doesn't matter how bad Snyder's version was. Have some decorum

 

[I Am The Knight]

 

[jmc]

Unprofessional as it is calling out the last dudes crappy job, but if that's the alleged issue with Whedon that was being called out then it comes back to what I said a few pages back about employees these days expecting their work environment to be 100% free from any difficult situations or drama. It's setting up a generation of people who can't properly handle conflict. That is a huge problem.

 

[Sithborg]

That’s just tacky and not in good taste period to trash another creator on set, in public or wherever, especially someone of Joss Whedon’s caliber. You’re the director, you’re supposed to set the tone for your production and if what you’re doing is trashing people, that’s unacceptable. You’d never hear about Steven Spielberg clowning James Cameron, that’s very wack.

But if they’re ripping Bryan Singer, by all means go for what you know.

I would also say that doing it, given the circumstances of Snyder leaving. I feel Snyder has ****ty beliefs and still would have made a bad movie, but there is a time for tact. But really, given Whedon's reaction to a unplanned pregnancy, I would say his ego demanded that he be quite vocal about him "fixing" the movie.

 

[Sithborg]

Unprofessional as it is calling out the last dudes crappy job, but if that's the alleged issue with Whedon that was being called out then it comes back to what I said a few pages back about employees these days expecting their work environment to be 100% free from any difficult situations or drama. It's setting up a generation of people who can't properly handle conflict. That is a huge problem.

What a shock, it is the *******s that must be accomidated.

 

[chamber-music]

No doubt the crew and cast knew about Snyder's daughter passing away and were particularly sensitive around the time as well. I could see a situation in which Whedon is being critical of Snyder's work and some folks taking it personal because of the emotions they had for Snyder at the time.

 

[jmc]

What a shock, it is the *******s that must be accomidated.

Serious issues of violence, direct threats and bullying of course should always be addressed, but life cannot be free from all forms of bad behaviour because it renders people unable to cope in difficult situations. It's like any type of immunity, you have to be exposed to it in someway in order to build up a resistance.

 

[MadVillainy]

Prolly not. It's the only new superhero movie related news to come out in a while.

 

[Iceman]

No doubt the crew and cast knew about Snyder's daughter passing away and were particularly sensitive around the time as well. I could see a situation in which Whedon is being critical of Snyder's work and some folks taking it personal because of the emotions they had for Snyder at the time.

Yeah, that makes sense. I could see myself reacting like that too.

 

[Flint Marko]

And if Whedon was really abusive he needs to keep that same energy with Ezra Miller at the least.

Legit can’t get over this. I was one of the few that really liked him in JL but I’m still surprised the calls to recast him aren’t louder.

 

[henzINNIT]

Can I indulge in a little Buffy-nerd detail on the Charisma Carpenter situation? Just because I think there is more to the story than is commonly known.

-Charisma Carpenter was a lead on Angel from the start of the show, but was written out in its fifth and final season. The common explanation is now that she was written off for getting pregnant. Sadly, I think this is a reasonable assessment, though it is a little more complicated.

-The earliest rumblings of tension I can recall were during season 3. Exact details escape me but I believe Carpenter took unplanned time off late in the season that was covered for in the show by a hasty character holiday. Not a smear on Carpenter, it was a bereavement iirc.

-Season 3 is the year that Joss Whedon was show-running 3 separate series at once. Angel was also run by David Greenwalt, a huge Cordelia fan, and the guy who came up with moving her over to Angel from Buffy in the first place. He left at the end of Season 3.

-Season 4 is where everything went sour. Carpenter became pregnant which affected plans for the character. There's been some back-and-forth about whether ample notice was given, but I consider that a pretty weak argument anyway. Pregnancies happen. By all accounts, there was a struggle to account for Carpenter's pregnancy in production, and she had an uncomfortable and unpleasant time. Fans did also that year, because the character sucked.

-Season 4 had numerous problems regardless. There was chaos trying to replace Greenwalt, with people in and out. Most characters suffered, but none more than Cordy, who had been tossed mostly bad material since mid-season 3 and was involved in several unpopular stories, before falling into a magical coma so Carpenter could have her baby. Ironically, her best showing was the only Joss-penned episode of the season.

-Season 5 came with a mandate from the network that included a revamp, a budget cut, and hiring James Masters after Buffy had concluded. All 3 of the above probably contributed to Charisma being cut the same year, plus over a year of bad-story-baggage. It's probably enough to dispute the notion that she was fired for 'getting pregnant', but only by degrees when it still appears as though pregnancy tanked her goodwill with Joss/whoever else. Carpenter found out she was fired during a press interview. Nice.

- *Bonus* Despite all the above, Carpenter returned as Cordelia during season 5 for one episode. Carpenter said she agreed to come back on the grounds that her character wouldn't be killed. After she agreed, the script came in and they had indeed killed her off.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Can I indulge in a little Buffy-nerd detail on the Charisma Carpenter situation? Just because I think there is more to the story than is commonly known.

-Charisma Carpenter was a lead on Angel from the start of the show, but was written out in its fifth and final season. The common explanation is now that she was written off for getting pregnant. Sadly, I think this is a reasonable assessment, though it is a little more complicated.

-The earliest rumblings of tension I can recall were during season 3. Exact details escape me but I believe Carpenter took unplanned time off late in the season that was covered for in the show by a hasty character holiday. Not a smear on Carpenter, it was a bereavement iirc.

-Season 3 is the year that Joss Whedon was show-running 3 separate series at once. Angel was also run by David Greenwalt, a huge Cordelia fan, and the guy who came up with moving her over to Angel from Buffy in the first place. He left at the end of Season 3.

-Season 4 is where everything went sour. Carpenter became pregnant which affected plans for the character. There's been some back-and-forth about whether ample notice was given, but I consider that a pretty weak argument anyway. Pregnancies happen. By all accounts, there was a struggle to account for Carpenter's pregnancy in production, and she had an uncomfortable and unpleasant time. Fans did also that year, because the character sucked.

-Season 4 had numerous problems regardless. There was chaos trying to replace Greenwalt, with people in and out. Most characters suffered, but none more than Cordy, who had been tossed mostly bad material since mid-season 3 and was involved in several unpopular stories, before falling into a magical coma so Carpenter could have her baby. Ironically, her best showing was the only Joss-penned episode of the season.

-Season 5 came with a mandate from the network that included a revamp, a budget cut, and hiring James Masters after Buffy had concluded. All 3 of the above probably contributed to Charisma being cut the same year, plus over a year of bad-story-baggage. It's probably enough to dispute the notion that she was fired for 'getting pregnant', but only by degrees when it still appears as though pregnancy tanked her goodwill with Joss/whoever else. Carpenter found out she was fired during a press interview. Nice.

- *Bonus* Despite all the above, Carpenter returned as Cordelia during season 5 for one episode. Carpenter said she agreed to come back on the grounds that her character wouldn't be killed. After she agreed, the script came in and they had indeed killed her off.

And with all that in mind, I believe that his wife alluded to affairs that he was having and one of those (alleged) affairs was with Amy Acker which makes so much sense.

After Charisma gets dismissed, Whedon starts shoving Acker down our throats with all these storylines about Fred which as a fan made me resent her (meaning the character not Acker), but it makes sense if she was jumping the boss’ bones. Acker was no substitute for Charisma Carpenter. At all.

I also really would love to hear what Sarah Michelle Gellar has to say about these Joss accusations. Alyson Hannigan said that SMG was ready to quit around season 3 and then Joss said something shady years ago about how he would never name a tv show after a singular character again.

 

[Schlosser85]

It's not warranted at all. When is it ever warranted to talk behind someone's back just because they did a poor job. That's unprofessional. And it's unprofessional in 99% if not 100% of workplaces. Even if you're brought in to clean up a mess, it's not in your job description to audibly complain about the poor job that came before. Especially when the poor job was done by some people who were still involved in the project. And as I said it's especially bad to do it when Snyder was grieving. Even if it's behind his back, which is still a punk move.

As me and others said, it's not egregious or abusive. But it is unprofessional. And I don't think anyone in here said that Snyder didn't get a fair chance. I have said many times I don't get how he got so many shots after basically all his movies after 300 underperformed. But just because of that doesn't give someone the write to bad mouth him to his coworkers and friends. Especially when that person is grieving and not there to defend themselves.
It's unprofessional, unnecessary, and frankly just a ***** move. It doesn't benefit anyone and it doesn't help the film. Especially if the people working on it still liked Snyder

He didn't have to praise Snyder or the movie, but he and anyone could've done the movie without mudslinging. Especially, from what we know Snyderw's "crime" was just making a bad movie. It's not like Snyder was a toxic boss and he was digging into him for that

Just do the best job you can. If you need to vent or complain do that not to the team members

Like I said, most of the cast and crew probably still felt loyal to Snyder and viewed Whedon as an imposter on Snyder's movie, which Whedon would have only exacerbated if he was just freely going around talking smack about Snyder.

Maybe Whedon knew he didn't have a warm welcome, maybe the onset tension made his own attitude worse, who knows. But it is dickish and unprofessional either way.

 

[henzINNIT]

As Amy Acker is probably my biggest celebrity crush, I now hate and somehow understand Joss Whedon more.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Fisher's gonna have to be specific. There's being a dick, there's being a bad "new boss," and then there's being abusive. I really hope this isn't a case of Fisher trying to curry favor with the toxic fan base Snyder was so happy to introduce him to. If so, he can get the **** outta here.

I don't know what to believe at this point, but I wouldnt put it past Fisher to try to feed the toxic snyder fans. I've yet to see Snyder condemn any form of harassment the fans have given Matt Reeves and the like.

 

[Fincher]

Fred / Amy Acker was great. I'm also not going to assume Whedon and Acker were involved since his ex didn't say that.

The part about Charisma agreeing to come back and then them killing her off to me is the most objectionable part, regardless of their motivations up to that point, but then that sort of thing might be par for the course for Hollywood.

 

[Predator jp]

Amy Acker was great in Person of Interest.

 

[MadVillainy]

You know I just never got into Buffy or Angel. Just never really appealed to me. Although, for some reason, I have seem like the last 4 mins of the Angel series finale and I thought that was a cool way to end it

 

[MadVillainy]

Amy Acker was great in Person of Interest.

Been meaning to watch that for years

 

[Gothamsknight]

Absolutely loved Buffy and Angel.