Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[Deck Rickard]

Regarding the Ruby Rose thing... are people saying that the new actress is massive upgrade because she’s really good or just because they don’t like Rose? Ruby seems to get a lot of hate.

 

[MarvelFan]

All the talk back about manga and American comic book business model, I am late but I want to talk about it a little bit.

Is it possible that someday American comics (particularly superhero title) have its definitive ending?!

Like in manga, for example Dragon Ball, eventhough now there is a Dragon Ball Super, but for a lot of fans, the definitive ending is after Son-goku defeat Majin-Bu. For Rurouni Kenshin, the definitive ending is after Kenshin defeated Enishi and have his sakabato handed to Yahiko. And so on.

I think, one of thing that American comics has disadvantage over manga is indeed the never ending story.

Even myself as fan of Marvel, I have not buy and read any new story by Marvel for 5 years now. (The last title I read is Civil War 2 and DC's Forever Evil). Not because I am bored of them but more because of the model business of both Marvel and DC that they will never end. Because of that, I understand if there is a potential new reader who hesitate before investing time to them.

So, I always wonder, is it possible to end Clark Kent's Superman story or Peter Parker's Spider-Man with one definitive end to their story in the comics? And if they did end, instead of continuing with legacy characters like Superboy or Miles Morales, how about evolving and expanding new character? Means new character,new vision, and new idea.

I want to give example and analogy with Tokusatsu genre (Japan superhero genre). I am not really sure if anyone here familiar with it, but if there are, I think they will know what I meant here. I will talk about the most popular of them, Kamen Rider (Masked Rider). I am sure one way or the other, anyone here might hear and at least know them.

The first Kamen Rider (Hongo Takeshi) created in 1971 by the late Ishinomori Shotaro-sensei. The series long for 2 years from 1971-1973 with total 98 episodes. After the series ends, Ishinomori-sensei made it clear that Hongo's Kamen Rider story is finished, and instead he made a brand new vision for Kamen Rider. He made Kamen Rider V3 in the following year with new concept, new character,new villain, new world,and new supporting character.
After V3, there is Kamen Rider X, Kamen Rider Stronger, Kamen Rider ZX, Kamen Rider Black, Kamen Rider Kuuga, and so on and on with the recent incarnation, Kamen Rider Zero One, which each of them has different story, different character with distinct powers, ideas, concept, villains, and overall feel to them.

With that concept, for kid who grew up in 70s, they will prefer Hongo's Kamen Rider, for 80s kid, they will always see Kamen Rider Black as their best, and for Heisei era of 2000s kid, most will pick Kamen Rider Kuuga as their first and favorite hero, and now for Reiwa era of 2019s generation, I believe most will see Kamen Rider Zero One as their best.

For potential new fans, everyone can also pick freely which Kamen Rider series they want to start and follow without having to be restricted by the rules of "have to follow the very first 1971 Hongo's Kamen Rider series". Same thing that cannot be said about American hero characters like Superman or Spider-Man, for example.

Same with other Tokusatsu genre like Ultraman, Super Sentai, and Metal Heroes that they are not stuck with the first incarnation of their version but instead evolve and progress the characters with ideas and visions.

I think that what makes the genre fresh, in my opinion. I hope my long explain analogy will be easy to understand by everyone here

Last but not least, I know it is not easy to implement that because I am sure American industry and Japanese industry has their own thinking of doing model business. It is just some thinking that I have been thinking for a while now regarding this subject.

 

[fan4stic]

Billionaire Republican donors have been spending a lot of money trying to radicalize online nerds along racial anxiety politics, to try to create the next generation of GOP voters. Because they realize the Republican party has an aging problem. Steve Bannon, Trump's 2016 campaign adviser admitted to infiltrating online geek spaces and trying to radicalize them.
I'm sure you've noticed an uptick of complaining about minorities in geek forums since 2015.
Edit: sexual politics too. The two go hand in hand.

Oh come on. Wikipedia says in February 2014 that Michael B. Jordan was cast. If I remember correctly, there was turmoil amongst fandoms then, wasn't there? I think I read there was also some turmoil going on in Star Wars fandom as well before 2015. Isn't this a little conspiracy theorist?

 

[DocLathropBrown]

Oh come on. Wikipedia says in February 2014 that Michael B. Jordan was cast. If I remember correctly, there was turmoil amongst fandoms then, wasn't there? I think I read there was also some turmoil going on in Star Wars fandom as well before 2015. Isn't this a little conspiracy theorist?

Yeah, but we're talking TEN years before what you're talking about.

I don't really go into conspiracies, but I could buy this one. I mean, you'd have to go digging through history to find out for sure. Were there massive fanboy fits when Billy Dee Williams played Harvey Dent? Was there backlash about the rumors that Marlon Wayans was cast as Robin in Batman Returns? I don't remember any for Alba playing Sue. Either fan communities used to be a lot more open-minded and have become more racist over time.... or they always were and knew enough to be quiet about it.

 

[Drizzle]

I remember people complaining about Alba being cast as Sue because she's a bad actress, not because of her ethnicity. Although I have to admit that trying to make her look more white in the sequel with that Children of the Corn wig and contacts was just an awkward move.

 

[Shuri]

love her but no.

 

[fan4stic]

Yeah, but we're talking TEN years before what you're talking about.

I don't really go into conspiracies, but I could buy this one. I mean, you'd have to go digging through history to find out for sure. Were there massive fanboy fits when Billy Dee Williams played Harvey Dent? Was there backlash about the rumors that Marlon Wayans was cast as Robin in Batman Returns? I don't remember any for Alba playing Sue. Either fan communities used to be a lot more open-minded and have become more racist over time.... or they always were and knew enough to be quiet about it.

To use a recent example, Will Smith as Deadshot, maybe? I didn't see or have heard anything about much flack there. Maybe it can be a case of the actor and/or the character their cast as. Maybe like Billy Dee Williams. I dig both of their performances in both their respective movies. Or maybe it may even be the times. Maybe back then, some didn't care, as they weren't use to getting what they wanted. Now, some may be, and they may want more of what they want. Maybe the type of people who'd complain about casting Alba may not have cared, in connection to her looking like the character in that movie.

 

[MadVillainy]

I mean Jessica Alba does also look "white" or at least white passing despite her heritage. I'm sure a lot of people don't know that, so that could've also played into why there weren't a lot a complaints.

That makeup was a travesty though.

But it's not brand new for people to complain about race changes. Even as a kid, before belonging to an internet forum, I remember people complaining about Michael Clarke Duncan playing Kingpin, or on the flip side Halle Berry being to light skinned to play Storm.

Race changes or colorism complaints aren't just recent

 

[Fincher]

Alba's mostly caucasian, but I don't think she looks at all like a blonde, so that was always going to look like a dye job.

 

[MadVillainy]

Not that I think she’s a good enough actress to garner any film or major television roles, but I could see it having an effect on getting even side roles, absolutely. I could see studios having an issue with wanting to commit to her for anything long term.

Granted she did have the two major accidents, so maybe that could help her draw sympathy and reason, but who knows.

Agreed

She didn't exactly have a big standing before, so I'm not entirely sure it matters.

Yeah but she had some standing. I think like Ninjablade said it will affect any major roles because people are always going to question her commitment

 

[MadVillainy]

Very off topic: but I sat down and watched Logan again for the first time since the black and white edition was release. I forgot how damn great it is. Such a well crafted film. I’m a sucker for father/daughter relationships (despite being neither a daughter or father) and that whole aspect really gets me in the feels. Also, the Xavier seizure scenes are some of my favorite modern day filmmaking tactics. Such a great set of sequences that were made so simply. I love Mangold’s work.

I still say if Logan was released before 2012, it would be touted a lot more than it does. Not saying it's hated on now, but it would have such bigger praise

 

[Detective Conan]

Speaking of Alba, I keep forgetting
she’s a billionaire, lol.

 

[MadVillainy]

Speaking of Alba, I keep forgetting
she’s a billionaire, lol.

Honest Company Wet Wipes.

Buy em. You're welcome

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, but we're talking TEN years before what you're talking about.

I don't really go into conspiracies, but I could buy this one. I mean, you'd have to go digging through history to find out for sure. Were there massive fanboy fits when Billy Dee Williams played Harvey Dent? Was there backlash about the rumors that Marlon Wayans was cast as Robin in Batman Returns? I don't remember any for Alba playing Sue. Either fan communities used to be a lot more open-minded and have become more racist over time.... or they always were and knew enough to be quiet about it.

The Comicsgate crowd didn't just pop out of the ether. The racism was always there. Alba didn't get flack, because she was "white enough" and had the key ingredient to fanboy approval, being hot. The difference between now and then, is that they didn't have the same kind of platform they do now.

And I want to point out, Bannon wasn't about radicalizing gamers. But exploiting them and the **** they believed.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

To use a recent example, Will Smith as Deadshot, maybe? I didn't see or have heard anything about much flack there. Maybe it can be a case of the actor and/or the character their cast as. Maybe like Billy Dee Williams. I dig both of their performances in both their respective movies. Or maybe it may even be the times. Maybe back then, some didn't care, as they weren't use to getting what they wanted. Now, some may be, and they may want more of what they want. Maybe the type of people who'd complain about casting Alba may not have cared, in connection to her looking like the character in that movie.

True, nobody whined about Smith as Deadshot. I think in that case it's simply because none of the racists knew who Deadshot was.

I suppose the other possibility is that as the MCU helped make superhero media more popular in the mainstream, our fanbase has acquired (shall we say) some crappier members. Fifteen years ago, maybe people as awful as racists had no interest in our silly stories of colorfully clad vigilantes. When anything goes mainstream, it gets a wider audience.

 

[fan4stic]

The Comicsgate crowd didn't just pop out of the ether. The racism was always there. Alba didn't get flack, because she was "white enough" and had the key ingredient to fanboy approval, being hot. The difference between now and then, is that they didn't have the same kind of platform they do now.

And I want to point out, Bannon wasn't about radicalizing gamers. But exploiting them and the **** they believed.

True, nobody whined about Smith as Deadshot. I think in that case it's simply because none of the racists knew who Deadshot was.

I suppose the other possibility is that as the MCU helped make superhero media more popular in the mainstream, our fanbase has acquired (shall we say) some crappier members. Fifteen years ago, maybe people as awful as racists had no interest in our silly stories of colorfully clad vigilantes. When anything goes mainstream, it gets a wider audience.

Maybe there's some things some people who wouldn't like race changing may not care as much about, not based on them knowing the character or not, but maybe in connection to a character they care about. Or they may like Will Smith or something. Or maybe some isn't as easily fitted for that racism shoe. I don't know.

 

[Fincher]

A lot of racebending I can roll with. When I do care (speaking in terms of white -> something else), and it's not about story/characterization, it's usually because I care about the hair color and care about it being done justice, and in my opinion it's a subset of white people who do red or blonde hair justice. My feeling is that if you aren't going to cast someone who fits, you might as well not make them a blonde or a redhead (which is what usually happens, anyway, or else they only do the color partway).

I didn't complain about Sue Storm at the time because I had no attachment to the character, never mind her hair. I mean, I noticed, but she still looked really good because Jessica Alba was just that good looking, and there were much bigger issues with those movies. And at the same time I wasn't quick to scrutinize superhero movies because there weren't that many. I guess seeing Alba as a blonde was a nice change of pace, but at the end of the day she was just never going to be an iconic blonde to me.

 

[Drizzle]

Now that I think about it, the same year that Fantastic Four came out, neckbeards were more up in arms about Alba keeping her clothes on as a stripper in Sin City.

 

[Fincher]

Now that I think about it, the same year that Fantastic Four came out, neckbeards were more up in arms about Alba keeping her clothes on as a stripper in Sin City.

Well, I mean, that's just not true to her character. Proper characterization is important, Drizzle.

 

[Sithborg]

Maybe there's some things some people who wouldn't like race changing may not care as much about, not based on them knowing the character or not, but maybe in connection to a character they care about. Or they may like Will Smith or something. Or maybe some isn't as easily fitted for that racism shoe. I don't know.

The racists always out themselves in their arguments. Always. And I say this as someone who would have made those arguments a decade ago. I mean, some may not realize it either. A lot of racists don't believe they are racist.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Oh come on. Wikipedia says in February 2014 that Michael B. Jordan was cast. If I remember correctly, there was turmoil amongst fandoms then, wasn't there? I think I read there was also some turmoil going on in Star Wars fandom as well before 2015. Isn't this a little conspiracy theorist?

I mean, Steve Bannon admitted as much in an interview. He intervened online spaces and exploited the sexual frustration of incels into racial grievance.

 

[Zarex]

At times I find that I am initially disappointed when an actor or actress is cast that doesn't largely resemble the character from the comics. I've been spoiled by many adaptations that appear to have leapt off of the comic book page. But I almost always come around, understanding that diversifying a mostly Caucasian comic book character lineup is essential for business and beneficial to society.

The one "race bending" role I still don't care for is MBJ as Johnny Storm. Casting both Sue and Johnny with black actors would have been better than the awkward step sibling relationship Trank and Kinberg left us with. But I still think MBJ would have been a better Reed.

 

[Sithborg]

Regarding the Ruby Rose thing... are people saying that the new actress is massive upgrade because she’s really good or just because they don’t like Rose? Ruby seems to get a lot of hate.

The best role I've seen her in is the one where she doesn't speak, so...

 

[divan]

Classy move on Fisher's part.

 

[Detective Conan]

The one "race bending" role I still don't care for is MBJ as Johnny Storm. Casting both Sue and Johnny with black actors would have been better than the awkward step sibling relationship Trank and Kinberg left us with. But I still think MBJ would have been a better Reed.

Trank wanted to cast a black actress in the role of Sue but he wasn’t allowed to by Fox, who wanted a white up and coming actress like a Margot Robbie. So the stepsibling relationship was more of comprise between Trank and Fox rather than actual creative decision.

Personally, I kind of like that they were adopted siblings. Blood doesn’t always determine who your family is, and I think that would’ve been an interesting theme for the movie to explore but nope! They kind of handwave it away with Sue’s brief explanation of her background to Reed and it’s never addressed again.

According to Trank on Fatman On Batman, he did say there was more of that angle where Johnny Storm lashed out at Sue over being adopted but I think it was deleted.