Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[Kahran Ramsus]

I didn't mind killing Pietro off. But let him have a "Final Fate of the Flash" type of awesome ending where he runs himself to death trying to keep Sokovia afloat. Don't have Ultron (ULTRON!) put a cap in his arse.

Yeah, how he died was lame as well. Between that and not being given any reason to care about him, it had almost no impact. It was an example of how not to kill someone off. Now for comparison's sake, look at Yondu's death. That was so much more meaningful than Quicksilver's. That's a death done well.

 

[Detective Conan]

Kind of, but I think it is more than manga is simply much easier to get into. American comics are a mess of continuity, multiple books, characters making appearances in other books, multiple writers and artists per character, etc. If you want to read One Piece (for example), it is easy. You pick up Volume 1 and start reading and eventually you get the whole story: beginning, middle, and one day it will eventually end. You can't do the same with Spider-Man.

In terms of American superhero comics, sure, but what of creator-owned books that have beginnings, middles and endings like Scapled, Y: The Last Man, The Walking Dead, and Transmetropolitan? Now what you’re saying is true for most of the big two, but I wouldn’t say that for the rest of the comics industry. There’s plenty of American comics that have a definitive middle and ends. They just tend not to be the superhero stuff, and don’t really need to be.

Manga like One Piece are great, but they’re still long. That’s often a big turnoff for a lot of people and honestly it’s not the worst thing in the world to have different writers put their own spin on something to be a everlasting thing.

Sure, it kind of makes mainstream superhero comics basically exist solely to be idea fuel for the movies but the fact these stories are endless means you have a wealth of material to draw from and read. Something like Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman aren’t created to have endings, at least not in the sense that they end forever and that model isn’t any less better or worse than the Japanese model, imo. Superheroes are akin to characters like Bond.

I’d argue most of the aforementioned American titles I listed above are much more easier to get into than something like say Detective Conan(my namesake!) which has over 1000 chapters, and and is over a hundred volumes and counting with no end in sight. In contrast, Transpolitian in comparison lasts only a measly 60 issues and ended already.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I would also say price point is a key ingredient, as well. Compare what $15 gets you in manga to what $15 gets you in comics, even in trade format.

Manga straight up has a better business model than American comics. The latter is pretty much half in the grave. The only reason its half rotted corpse is dangled around is as proof of concept for the movies.

It’s no coincidence that Magna sales are skyrocketing whilst superhero comics are not getting any better.

Other independent publishers like Image and IDW create stories with visualized endings and are not all about superheroes, shared universe, retcons, deaths that are redacted for reasons... etc etc.

Japanese manga also has the lucrative business of adaptions that maintain the art style and stay close to the story published. And many of these manga series are published on weekly basis in publications shared with other series before gaining enough success to move to volumes.

 

[Web-Head]

 

[Timebomb]

Yeah it's more than a bit weird. I would have thought serious misconduct wouldn't be covered in an NDA. But admittedly I know sod all about it. Fair play to Fisher if he wants to protect himself but this whole thing is so damn odd Why does no-one significant have his back on this already? Why say anything yet if you can't say something of substance? We'll see soon enough I suppose.

I am pretty sure that anything illegal or abusive isn't covered in an NDA. Not positive on the abusive part but pretty sure if it's degrading. That being said, to me this just means that Fisher wants to just say what Whedon may have said about Snyder or his vision on the set. That is all. For that, he would need to wait for the NDA. What is weird is the "we will win". Win what? I think this is all to drum up buzz for Snyder. His cash cow and buddy.

Here is how I see this. All of these people were working for Snyder who is, from what I have heard, great to work for and pretty laid back on set. Then here comes Whedon who, from what I have heard, is pretty hard core and strict. I am sure Joss had to say "this will not be ran like Snyder" numerous times. It's an on set culture thing. In my job I have had to come into hostile environments and manage people in a completely different way than what they are used to. It's hard to change that culture and there are people that will hate you for it. Not saying Joss is innocent because it sounds like he could have handled a lot of things better but boy can people take things you say and the way you have to "change" the culture the wrong way and paint you as a villain when you may be the furthest thing from one.

 

[Ninjablade]

Makes sense. I can’t imagine they have much to announce that we don’t already know due to the shut down pushing their schedules back.

I figured at best we’d maybe get some completed footage from some of their stuff.

 

[Detective Conan]

It’s a smart decision on Marvel’s part. I can’t see them topping last year’s Hall H panel this year.

 

[kguillou]

I think alot of us were hoping this would be the year they announce Marvel’s Fantastic Four but with everything going on phase 4 has basically been pushed back a whole year, so im thinking next summer will be it.

 

[jmc]

Other independent publishers like Image and IDW create stories with visualized endings and are not all about superheroes, shared universe, retcons, deaths that are redacted for reasons... etc etc.

Japanese manga also has the lucrative business of adaptions that maintain the art style and stay close to the story published. And many of these manga series are published on weekly basis in publications shared with other series before gaining enough success to move to volumes.

I was talking specifically about superheroes within comics. I actually think the next revolution for superheroes in comics may very well end up being online campaigns through Kickstarter / Indiegogo. There's some crazy and different concepts emerging in that scene, one in particular I saw that stuck with me was about a girl who's superpower was making men orgasm when she hits them, . You'd never get that comic run at DC or Marvel, or even IDW.

 

[MadVillainy]

Ray Fisher Says a Justice League NDA is Keeping Him From Speaking Out

“I am still very much under contract and I am still very much under non-disclosure agreement,” said Fisher. “So, I’ve gotta be very careful about what I say and how I say it. Otherwise I could get sued into oblivion. So just a disclaimer there. So for the folks who were looking for more specifics, I’m sorry that I cannot give them to you in the moment right now. Just gotta make sure all your ducks are laid out in a row, so you can go ahead and handle the situation appropriately, so you don’t end up being outside of professionally liable, legally liable for anything that could be litigious or whatever that would be.”

“This will take some time,” added Fisher. “We will get it done, and we will win. And I’ll be able to move on in the world.”

 

[jmc]

He sure as hell better hope he doesn't have is own skeleton in the closet if he pursues this further.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

I think it’s pretty ballsy of Marvel to opt out of Comic Con at home. They had a monster year last year both at SDCC and the box office, the whole world is dealing with Covid-19 and we already know what they’ve got in store with Widow and the D+ shows, I like that they’re not being thirsty.

Let the anticipation grow.

 

[MadVillainy]

To be honest, I don't see the benefit of going to San Diego Comic Con at all really for DC and Marvel movies. When you go there, you're basically just pandering to the base that'll most likely be watching the movie anyway. Or at least be excited for it. Hall H screams for everything.

I think you can still create plenty of buzz, especially with social media, between the general audience and us fanboys just by either doing your own smaller event (similar to what Marvel did when announcing the rest of Phase 3) or by just doing digital events and releasing the trailers online. Probably would save money and effort too.

It's like not like Comic Con is the exclusive thing it used to be when it comes to movies. It used to be that only people who were in attendance would get the panels or even the sizzle reels. Now most of the stuff is shown online simultaneously or a few weeks later.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I was talking specifically about superheroes within comics. I actually think the next revolution for superheroes in comics may very well end up being online campaigns through Kickstarter / Indiegogo. There's some crazy and different concepts emerging in that scene, one in particular I saw that stuck with me was about a girl who's superpower was making men orgasm when she hits them, . You'd never get that comic run at DC or Marvel, or even IDW.

I think I've read about something like that before. Some of Marvel characters have some effect with their pheromones.

 

[Boy Scout]

Ray Fisher Says a Justice League NDA is Keeping Him From Speaking Out

Fair enough, but that’s something you make clear from the jump.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

In terms of American superhero comics, sure, but what of creator-owned books that have beginnings, middles and endings like Scapled, Y: The Last Man, The Walking Dead, and Transmetropolitan? Now what you’re saying is true for most of the big two, but I wouldn’t say that for the rest of the comics industry. There’s plenty of American comics that have a definitive middle and ends. They just tend not to be the superhero stuff, and don’t really need to be.

The problem is that the stuff from Marvel and DC is extremely important as a gateway for new readers. The same way popular battle shonen like Naruto and Dragon Ball are for manga. So yes, they exist, but non-fans don't know about them and the American comic book industry is doing a horrible job of attacting anybody new who isn't already reading them.

Manga like One Piece are great, but they’re still long. That’s often a big turnoff for a lot of people and honestly it’s not the worst thing in the world to have different writers put their own spin on something to be a everlasting thing.

Yes, that certainly applies to One Piece. But there is other popular stuff that really isn't all that long. Also, I don't think it is as important that people finish it as they get started with it.

Sure, it kind of makes mainstream superhero comics basically exist solely to be idea fuel for the movies but the fact these stories are endless means you have a wealth of material to draw from and read. Something like Batman, Spider-Man, and Superman aren’t created to have endings, at least not in the sense that they end forever and that model isn’t any less better or worse than the Japanese model, imo. Superheroes are akin to characters like Bond.

I’d argue most of the aforementioned American titles I listed above are much more easier to get into than something like say Detective Conan(my namesake!) which has over 1000 chapters, and and is over a hundred volumes and counting with no end in sight. In contrast, Transpolitian in comparison lasts only a measly 60 issues and ended already.

Episodic stuff is different. Something like James Bond (or Lupin for a Japanese equivalent of this style) is a lot easier to get into and have different interpretations because it doesn't matter what order you watch them in. You can start at Dr. No or The Spy Who Loved Me or Goldeneye or Casino Royale and it doesn't matter one bit. The continuity is the lockout when it comes to the big American superheroes.

 

[MadVillainy]

Fair enough, but that’s something you make clear from the jump.

Idk we'll see. Even with NDAs stuff leaks and I am still surprised nothing has come out from anonymous sources and through an expose or something

 

[henzINNIT]

To be honest, I don't see the benefit of going to San Diego Comic Con at all really for DC and Marvel movies. When you go there, you're basically just pandering to the base that'll most likely be watching the movie anyway. Or at least be excited for it. Hall H screams for everything.

I think you can still create plenty of buzz, especially with social media, between the general audience and us fanboys just by either doing your own smaller event (similar to what Marvel did when announcing the rest of Phase 3) or by just doing digital events and releasing the trailers online. Probably would save money and effort too.

It's like not like Comic Con is the exclusive thing it used to be when it comes to movies. It used to be that only people who were in attendance would get the panels or even the sizzle reels. Now most of the stuff is shown online simultaneously or a few weeks later.

Whoever Mr. SDCC may be, I'm guessing they are working very hard to maintain that relationship with the big studios. The convention is now big enough that appearing there is like a rite of passage, and while any online event would generate buzz, nothing quite funnels all the fanboys into one place like that. It's an opportunity to sell stuff to fans both who are dedicated and well-off enough to go in the first place. Marvel probably benefit in many ways, even if the film division specifically doesn't.

Plus, it is always a good story if your trailer played to a bunch of excited, screaming fans. You'd have to suck pretty bad to turn that crowd against you.

 

[Erzengel]

Idk we'll see. Even with NDAs stuff leaks and I am still surprised nothing has come out from anonymous sources and through an expose or something

Let me say, if Whedon did anything entirely heinous, yeah let the court of public opinion have their way with him but you would think that if it was, a NDA wouldn't cover something outrageous.

But, I think it's fairly easy to agitate the sect of the toxic Snyder fans, especially someone like Whedon who "shouldn't have taken the job" and is persona not grata already so when you have someone beloved by the Snyder fans versus an enemy of them, it's not surprising that they jump on this.

But all we have is vague comments by Fisher, and now that he's saying a NDA, I'm beginning to wonder how "unprofessional" Whedon was or if he was just a difficult director? And the fact that people are running with any rumors from him threatening to take WW away from Gadot to being a racist when nothing has been stated is just funny how easy it is to rile up some fans.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

There’s definitely smoke to the fire for Joss to simply say “no comment” when your character is being vilified.

Just wish Fisher or somebody with some heart could bring the damn smoke.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Let me say, if Whedon did anything entirely heinous, yeah let the court of public opinion have their way with him but you would think that if it was, a NDA wouldn't cover something outrageous.

But, I think it's fairly easy to agitate the sect of the toxic Snyder fans, especially someone like Whedon who "shouldn't have taken the job" and is persona not grata already so when you have someone beloved by the Snyder fans versus an enemy of them, it's not surprising that they jump on this.

But all we have is vague comments by Fisher, and now that he's saying a NDA, I'm beginning to wonder how "unprofessional" Whedon was or if he was just a difficult director? And the fact that people are running with any rumors from him threatening to take WW away from Gadot to being a racist when nothing has been stated is just funny how easy it is to rile up some fans.

Honestly, it depends on how NDA's are written. NDA's to specifically target really crappy things are not unusual in all facets of business, including Hollywood. I don't think (and lord I really hope not) that Whedon is on a Weinstein level, but Weinstien often used NDA's to cover his behavior.

The whole Whedon thing though...it's tough. I've loved a lot of his projects, but there have been rumblings that he's done some not great stuff for a while. Going back to his ex-wife's article.

That said, I also find many of the Snyder-cut fans extremely problematic in and of themselves. There's been a lot of racism and sexism in their responses to anyone that disagrees with them. In terms of the cut itself, I'm glad Zack gets to finish his vision, even though I wasn't interested in it at all. I don't have any plans to watch it, but the guy went through hell during the attempt to finish those films and I'm sure it's a level of catharsis for him to be able to go back and finish this production.

But the Whedon vs. Snyder stuff...I don't really have a horse in this race. And I certainly don't think some of the Snydercut fans have any leg to stand on in terms of morality. But if it turns out Whedon was doing some bad stuff, he deserves everything he gets.

 

[MadVillainy]

Let me say, if Whedon did anything entirely heinous, yeah let the court of public opinion have their way with him but you would think that if it was, a NDA wouldn't cover something outrageous.

But, I think it's fairly easy to agitate the sect of the toxic Snyder fans, especially someone like Whedon who "shouldn't have taken the job" and is persona not grata already so when you have someone beloved by the Snyder fans versus an enemy of them, it's not surprising that they jump on this.

But all we have is vague comments by Fisher, and now that he's saying a NDA, I'm beginning to wonder how "unprofessional" Whedon was or if he was just a difficult director? And the fact that people are running with any rumors from him threatening to take WW away from Gadot to being a racist when nothing has been stated is just funny how easy it is to rile up some fans.

It's even weirder when you go to his socials and he's posting stuff like this

Isn't all Kevin Smith say that Whedon was dismissive and negative about Snyder's version and that people might've felt a way since they worked on said vision? And he didn't even say Whedon was abusive about it? Idk this just seems like trying to rile people up.

I can't tell people how to act or react, especially in a hostile work environment. But it's just very weird to me to jump out the window and say in so many words: "Screw Joss Whedon" and when people ask you to elaborate you say "Well I can't I'm under an NDA" Pandora can't go into the box, if you can't share details why say anything at all.

I'm just waiting for that THR or Variety expose. There have been plenty of movies when people are most likely under NDA and we still hear at least some concrete rumors (as concrete as rumors can be) like Fan4stic, Suicide Squad, Fury Road, etc.

There’s definitely smoke to the fire for Joss to simply say “no comment” when your character is being vilified.

Just wish Fisher or somebody with some heart could bring the damn smoke.

ALso remember Jon Berg didn't defend him either. He defended him and Johns, but nothing about Whedon from what i remember

 

[MadVillainy]

Christ i could go for some actual movie news right now

 

[Detective Conan]

Christ i could go for some actual movie news right now

Sony Pictures Animation Chief Kristine Belson Sees COVID-19 Helping Stimulate Demand For R-Rated And PG-13 Titles – Deadline

Thoughts? We could see an emergence of more animated superhero movies Into The Spider-Verse.

 

[MadVillainy]

Don't think she's correct on that, but she knows more about movies than me. So we'll see