Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[mclay18]

Do you guys think we’ll ever hear Whedon defend himself? Or will he just go into exile for half a decade and then attempt a comeback?

So far, he didn't sexually assault anyone. I'm betting on the latter.

 

[Erzengel]

Unless he has something coming out which I don't think he does, he's going to remain silent because right now there's not anything that he can say that exonerate him.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Unless he has something coming out which I don't think he does, he's going to remain silent because right now there's not anything that he can say that exonerate him.

The Nevers is suppose to premiere in April. He's no longer the showrunner, but he will most likely be the main topic of the "press tour". And by "press tour" I mean all the Zoom calls.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Um, being an atheist is not worse than abusing people.

Don’t you knew, god fearing Christians never abuse their partners.

 

[chamber-music]

I also prefer the Russo brothers avengers movies over Whedon's films.

Michelle Trachtenberg reposted Sarah's message with a caption of her own

Thank you @sarahmgellar for saying this. I am brave enough now as a 35 year old woman.... To repost this. Because. This must. Be known. As a teenager. With his not appropriate behavior......

I hope young Trachtenberg wasn't a victim of Whedon's abuse

It wouldn't be a good look for Hollywood if Fisher get's blacklisted for speaking out. I think Fisher will be ok in the long run.

 

[Sithborg]

I personally preferred the Russo Avengers movies anyways, but boy did Marvel sure get lucky to get this guy out of there before all of this started coming down. Or maybe not luck. Maybe they knew this was a ticking timebomb. It would be interesting if the truth eventually comes out about the whole thing.

As for Fisher, he sure could have used some of this support months ago. There is value in numbers. A lone person isn't much and can be easily dismissed as just being disgruntled, a pack of people is much harder to ignore.

I don't think we can really know how much support he got. Carpenter just admitted she was contacted as part of WB's investigation. So, it was clearly a more thorough investigation than just the Justice League set. And with such an investigation, I can understand it being stressed that it shouldn't be talked too much about publicly. She spoke out now, because even though Whedon is being prepped to be the scapegoat, Fisher is still facing some retaliation, for him being unsatisfied with 1 of 3 targets of his ire.

 

[chamber-music]

No doubt a big corporation like WB got legal council that advised to do a deep dive on Whedon. These companies don't want to leave themselves open to civil suits. They probably tracked down as many people with a potential grievance as they could to see if there is a pattern of behavior.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Maybe it is because I was such a fan of his, but I don't know if I will ever get over Tudyk saying this:

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I don't see the problem with that statement. He says he can't see it, but he wasn't there. It wasn't like he came out blasting the accusers or denies it with 100% certainty or anything like that (not in this statement anyways, maybe he did elsewhere and I don't know about it). Maybe he really didn't see any of this stuff. It doesn't necessarily mean Tudyk is lying.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't see the problem with that statement. He says he can't see it, but he wasn't there. It wasn't like he came out blasting the accusers or denies it with 100% certainty or anything like that (not in this statement anyways, maybe he did elsewhere and I don't know about it). Maybe he really didn't see any of this stuff. It doesn't necessarily mean Tudyk is lying.

The implication is very obvious. He was down playing Fisher's accusations, by backing his buddy. He wasn't there for what happened with Carpenter either. If he came out with that exact same post about what she has said today, would people be keeping the same energy about him saying it? How about SMG's words today? Tractenberg's? What makes the Fisher situation different?

My issue with the Fisher situation was always the same with how people reacted to Whedon's ex-wife's accusations, Benson's accusations, and Carpenter's accusations. People downplayed them, and in the case of this thread, mocked him for it even after Momoa came out about backed him. Still, mocking. Whedon got fired from WB. Still, mocked. It is not lost on me what Fisher's skin color is, and how people still thought it was cool to mock him.

 

[Snow Queen]

Tudyk's tweet reminds me of some celebrities responding to the accusations that Ellen was awful to some guests and staff members this summer, coming out and saying "well I've known them this long and they're nice to me." I don't know what intent is behind it, but it comes off... not reading the room at all at best. Because seeing someone being accused of racism, sexism, abuse, or the miriad of other accusations that have been coming out about a lot of people and going "well they're nice to me" is... not the point and feels like an attempt to just to undermine people speaking out about their experiences to defend their character.

It doesn't help that the treatment of Ray Fisher during all of this has... not been kind. While I can understand some people being unsure how to feel given a lack of information, the level of mockery was vastly unearned. I don't know what happened on the set of Justice League, but it seems something did as not only did Fisher speak out but was backed up by a costar who the studio then made up a film about to drown it out, an investigation resulted in his firing, and now a pattern of behaviour spanning decades is being established from Carpenter and Trachtenberg's post seems to imply there's more to it we don't know.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I never mocked Ray Fisher over this whole thing. I just said I don't have specifics of what happened, so I don't feel I can have an opinion without them. Carpenter provided specifics which Buffy co-stars are backing up. That I think is the game changer and major difference.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I never mocked Ray Fisher over this whole thing. I just said I don't have specifics of what happened, so I don't feel I can have an opinion without them. Carpenter provided specifics which Buffy co-stars are backing up. That I think is the game changer and major difference.

Carpenter came out years ago with details. So did Benson, so did Whedon's ex-wife. Why was it not a game changer then? Why are people acting as if this just brand new toda? We knew the kind of human being Joss Whedon was a long time ago, and people were still acting as if what Ray Fisher was saying didn't have an obvious baseline to start from. This would be like someone saying Singer was an issue on set, and people saying, "we need more details before we take it seriously". Of course we wouldn't. He know who Singer is. Although this exact same thing played out with Singer here so... yeah.

Not passing judgment before you see more evidence is one thing and if you did that SF, that's great. I honestly don't remember. If that is what people wanted to do, they could have totally done it. But in this thread there is a ton of speculation, plenty of which painted Fisher in a bad light and yes, mocked him. There has been a running joke about him and accusation of clout chasing. This did not end even after Momoa came out in support of him, when it was revealed that WB made up a movie to deflect attention or Whedon even got canned. As to the calls for a lack of evidence, in and of itself was a stick to beat him with. If people didn't want to hear Fisher say what he said online, they didn't have to listen to him. He made it clear he couldn't say specific things. People complained about him be "whiny" on twitter, as if anyone was forced to listen to him, and discounting the possibility that a black man in Hollywood might you know, be frustrated with the same old, same old.

I took the joking and mocking seriously, because I understand that underlying frustration Fisher might have been feeling. That we are on a board, where people constantly vent over films, television and video games, the lack of empathy for Fisher venting about a potential legitimately awful situation bothered me, and still does. Very little consideration was give to who he is, and the position he was in. All why we were living out a summer of protest based around the devaluing of black lives in America. I am not saying anyone's intention was to be awful about it, but there was very large lack of reading the room on this situation. There was even post of concern for Joss "known trash for years" Whedon being harassed online.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Whedon's own treatment of his wife and how he knowingly took those actions against someone he claimed to 'love' is enough for me to know the man is an absolute a-hole who deserves everything that is coming to him in the near future.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Carpenter came out years ago with details. So did Benson, so did Whedon's ex-wife. Why was it not a game changer then? Why are people acting as if this just brand new toda? We knew the kind of human being Joss Whedon was a long time ago, and people were still acting as if what Ray Fisher was saying didn't have an obvious baseline to start from. This would be like someone saying Singer was an issue on set, and people saying, "we need more details before we take it seriously". Of course we wouldn't. He know who Singer is. Although this exact same thing played out with Singer here so... yeah.

Not passing judgment before you see more evidence is one thing and if you did that SF, that's great. I honestly don't remember. If that is what people wanted to do, they could have totally done it. But in this thread there is a ton of speculation, plenty of which painted Fisher in a bad light and yes, mocked him. There has been a running joke about him and accusation of clout chasing. This did not end even after Momoa came out in support of him, when it was revealed that WB made up a movie to deflect attention or Whedon even got canned. As to the calls for a lack of evidence, in and of itself was a stick to beat him with. If people didn't want to hear Fisher say what he said online, they didn't have to listen to him. He made it clear he couldn't say specific things. People complained about him be "whiny" on twitter, as if anyone was forced to listen to him, and discounting the possibility that a black man in Hollywood might you know, be frustrated with the same old, same old.

I took the joking and mocking seriously, because I understand that underlying frustration Fisher might have been feeling. That we are on a board, where people constantly vent over films, television and video games, the lack of empathy for Fisher venting about a potential legitimately awful situation bothered me, and still does. Very little consideration was give to who he is, and the position he was in. All why we were living out a summer of protest based around the devaluing of black lives in America. I am not saying anyone's intention was to be awful about it, but there was very large lack of reading the room on this situation. There was even post of concern for Joss "known trash for years" Whedon being harassed online.

I am not going to doubt there was mocking. There are days I don't come into this thread so I easily could have missed it here or the JL forum. I know for me, Momoa and Godot saying stuff happened certainly changed my view that something beyond reasonable doubt happened, but really in the end it is always examples that yield the most power. Abuse is vague and can mean many different things, but for example Carpenter's account of her experience for me was hard to read. There is a different power to it. We always knew stuff went down, but I cannot remember her giving this level of detail.

The wife I do think was a game changer though. At least when it came out it was. Joss was not nearly as active when all that went down, so there was def a lay low period there too. I do think this will be the KO blow though

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am not going to doubt there was mocking. There are days I don't come into this thread so I easily could have missed it here or the JL forum. I know for me, Momoa and Godot saying stuff happened certainly changed my view that something beyond reasonable doubt happened, but really in the end it is always examples that yield the most power. Abuse is vague and can mean many different things, but for example Carpenter's account of her experience for me was hard to read. There is a different power to it. We always knew stuff went down, but I cannot remember her giving this level of detail.

The wife I do think was a game changer though. At least when it came out it was. Joss was not nearly as active when all that went down, so there was def a lay low period there too. I do think this will be the KO blow though

Was it though? Whedon did the typical lay low for a little bit, and then he got a nice job again. There was so many trying to defend him on that matter. Whedon to me is fascinating from the standpoint is that a lot like Singer, it seems that so many mental gymnastic were use to wave away available information on them.

I feel sadness for all those that spoke out against Whedon, because it seems so little of it seem to penetrate. It took Ray Fisher persistence that even led to the investigation, that got us to this point, and it doesn't feel like it should have been that way.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Was it though? Whedon did the typical lay low for a little bit, and then he got a nice job again. There was so many trying to defend him on that matter. Whedon to me is fascinating from the standpoint is that a lot like Singer, it seems that so many mental gymnastic were use to wave away available information on them.

I feel sadness for all those that spoke out against Whedon, because it seems so little of it seem to penetrant. It took Ray Fisher persistence that even led to the investigation, that got us to this point, and it doesn't feel like it should have been that way.

I agree. I don't like when people get away with things like this for so long. Regardless of how much I love Buffy or the Avengers or Firefly, this stuff is not cool.. But on the plus side, we are culturally looking at these things differently now.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

I never mocked Ray Fisher over this whole thing. I just said I don't have specifics of what happened, so I don't feel I can have an opinion without them. Carpenter provided specifics which Buffy co-stars are backing up. That I think is the game changer and major difference.

I know it’s easier to say from the outside looking in, and I know it has to be even harder for a black, relatively unknown actor to do it also, but I really wish Fisher just came out swinging in detail when he first brought this to the Iight.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I never mocked Ray Fisher over this whole thing. I just said I don't have specifics of what happened, so I don't feel I can have an opinion without them. Carpenter provided specifics which Buffy co-stars are backing up. That I think is the game changer and major difference.

Same. I never mocked him. I just said we needed more information before I could immediately declare Whedon guilty. I always said Fisher could be right, but it was too early to tell.

Like or not, false accusations do happen. Especially against high profile targets. We've just spent months dealing with QAnon nutcases making false accusations against people, companies, and our entire democratic process. That's why we need serious investigations to see if there is any evidence or corroboration. And in this case it is now coming out that there is. You can say that there were these stories from years ago, but I didn't know about those. I don't spend my days scouring everything said about celebrities.

Just don't jump to conclusions. Sometimes it ends up being true like with Singer and apparently Whedon, and sometimes it ends up blowing up in your face like with James Gunn. Wait for the details.

 

[Boy Scout]

I didn’t take Fisher entirely seriously at first. While I don’t think I mocked him, I wasn’t impressed with his vague statements and before evidence started pouring out and investigations started happening, I was willing to believe that Fisher might’ve just been a disgruntled employee who had a difficult working relationship with his “boss.” Whedon could’ve just been a regular ******* instead of a toxic, abusive *******. Obviously, I now know it’s a lot closer to the latter.

 

[Flint Marko]

I know it’s easier to say from the outside looking in, and I know it has to be even harder for a black, relatively unknown actor to do it also, but I really wish Fisher just came out swinging in detail when he first brought this to the Iight.

This is basically where I've been at. I took him at his word from the jump, but in fairness I'm still somewhat confused why this started back last Spring and we still basically don't know what happened. I'm sure there's a reason, he probably wanted the investigation done properly with respect to whatever NDA he signed, but it hasn't been the easiest process to follow along.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

Tudyk's tweet reminds me of some celebrities responding to the accusations that Ellen was awful to some guests and staff members this summer, coming out and saying "well I've known them this long and they're nice to me." I don't know what intent is behind it, but it comes off... not reading the room at all at best. Because seeing someone being accused of racism, sexism, abuse, or the miriad of other accusations that have been coming out about a lot of people and going "well they're nice to me" is... not the point and feels like an attempt to just to undermine people speaking out about their experiences to defend their character.

It doesn't help that the treatment of Ray Fisher during all of this has... not been kind. While I can understand some people being unsure how to feel given a lack of information, the level of mockery was vastly unearned. I don't know what happened on the set of Justice League, but it seems something did as not only did Fisher speak out but was backed up by a costar who the studio then made up a film about to drown it out, an investigation resulted in his firing, and now a pattern of behaviour spanning decades is being established from Carpenter and Trachtenberg's post seems to imply there's more to it we don't know.

it remains very funny to me that Ellen got cancelled for abusing workers. And not, you know, bringing in a war criminal president and trying to portray him as a tortured painter. Hugging him and calling him a friend.

it was the most disgusting and naked bit of propaganda I’ve seen on television.

 

[Brother Jack]

It's crazy to think back at how venerated Whedon was in the online geek/nerd culture community, even just a few years ago. I think one lesson to take away from this is how unwise it is to put these people up on a pedestal just because they happened to make a TV show or movie you enjoyed. We're all guilty of celebrity worship to some degree, it's one of the most ubiquitous sins in our society, but among many other things the MeToo movement has shown how misplaced and dangerous it can be.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

Things like these only become an issue when they really blow up. You'll see some people hating on Whedon (deservedly) while still waiting to see things like the next Mission Impossible movie, despite all the things that have come out about that sect and about Tom Cruise himself, even though they are really good at covering things up and forcing silence.

 

[Kane52630]

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